Why Expose the Errors of Catholicism?

[A_Christian]

GraceSaves:

The Jews turned from believing that GOD would
save them to depending on holding to the LAW
for their salvation.

Likewise, the Roman Catholic church while saying
that Christ saves, stops short at saying that is
all there is. What they do, is say one needs to
partake of the elements of the mass on a regular
sacraficial bases or they may lose their
salvation. They insist on placing the burden of
following prescribed rituals as the means of
making one's salvation sure. They have created
a LAW unto themselves. They have Judaized
Christianity and made it a process rather then
a relationship. The congegant finds his
relationship is with the church and misses any
personal connection with Christ. He becomes
a slave to the dictates of "church" authorities.

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by A_Christian:
GraceSaves:

The Jews turned from believing that GOD would
save them to depending on holding to the LAW
for their salvation.

Likewise, the Roman Catholic church while saying
that Christ saves, stops short at saying that is
all there is. What they do, is say one needs to
partake of the elements of the mass on a regular
sacraficial bases or they may lose their
salvation. They insist on placing the burden of
following prescribed rituals as the means of
making one's salvation sure. They have created
a LAW unto themselves. They have Judaized
Christianity and made it a process rather then
a relationship. The congegant finds his
relationship is with the church and misses any
personal connection with Christ. He becomes
a slave to the dictates of "church" authorities.

Or maybe, the Catholic Church provides the perfect environment to foster a relationship with our Triune God. Casue, gee, that's what it did for me.

 

[A_Christian]

Only the Holy Spirit can draw you to GOD, not a
church. The "CHURCH" is what you become a part of
when you place your faith (which GOD gives to
you) in Christ Jesus.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
Bob,

So this allows you to make the inference that the Catholic Church fulfills a new prophecy?

The fact still remains that what you know about the Jews you learn from Scripture, in the New Testament. Unless you have a New New Testament that does the same thing toward the Catholic Church, any fulfillment of the prophecy (or explanation of it) is your own, and not that which is contained in Scripture. It's your "best guess." For all we know, you do not have the "wisdom" required to understand Revelation, and you interpret it completely wrong. Your analysis is totally subjective.

My point is that the Jews were no more predicted to reject the Messiah than the Catholic church was to invent things like Purgatory, the immaculate conception, Mary-queen-of-heaven or praying to the dead, teaching the Lords Supper as a continual offering and continual sacrifice, slaughtering fellow catholic armies or torturing catholic reformers etc. Neither group "had to do it".

I have not published here the Bible study that would show how the Catholic church is identified as a key character in history according to God's Word. Though Christ and Paul presented the OT case for the failings of the Jews being in violation of scripture AND showing the true mission of the Messiah - I have not presented the OT and NT case regarding the Catholic Church.

My first step is just to get a discussion near the objective point of "admitting" that the Catholic church is a significant part of Christian history - significant enough to be mentioned EVEN if she engaged in the atrocities of the dark ages. As Bill Putman claims to sorow over those atrocities - I would hope that some Catholics would ALSO admit that having such crimes INSIDE a church as significant as the Catholic Church in history - "might" be something "God would notice".

In Christ,

Bob

[ October 06, 2003, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[BobRyan]

GraceSaves Or maybe, the Catholic Church provides the perfect environment to foster a relationship with our Triune God.

Lets see "if we find" the Perfect environment as we observe the RCC marshalling catholics to slaughter fellow catholics.

(at least according to Catholic scholars and historians THEMSELVES).

According to Bokenkotters "A Concise History of the Catholic church" the same cardinals that elect Urban claim that the "mob" altered the elections and so they elected another Pope - free of the mob. And thus began the great schism pg 166-168.

Before the schism - when Gregory XI died the Romans feared a French Pope "might" be elected. As Bokenkotter states (pg 166)

"dismay soon gave way to panic as the sixteen cardinals assembled on April 7 1378. Some of them were assaulted in the street and warned by the bullies to elect (Urban vi) an Italian... The cardinals quickly elected an Italian, the archbishop of Bari, Bartholomew Prignano, who was not even of their number. In the meantime, a mob in ugly mood had seized the papal wine cellars and invaded the Vatican; while waiting for Prignano to arrive, the cardinals dressed up one of their colleagues and presented him in papal robes to pacify the crowd.

Whether the cardinals were really overpowered by fear and hence unfree when they elected Prignano - as they later charged - will, it seems, remain forever one of the tantalizing but insoluble questions of RC history...

The schism began when the cardinals - whose original misgivings were greatly exacerbated by Urban's behavior - decided they had had enough. Abandoning Rome, they took refuge at Fondi, and then elaborated an encyclical in which they declared Prignano's election invalid and denounced him has antichrist, demon, apostate, and tyrant...on September 20 1378 they unanimously elected a new Pope, Rober of Geneva, who took the name Clement VII.

..both Popes received support from civil governments - splitting western Christendom into two camps. The holy Roman emperor, England, the Netherlands, Castille, Hungary, Poland and Portugal stood behind Urban, while France rallied to Clement VII, who returned to Avignon in 1379 and was soon joined by Scottland, Luxembourg and Austria...(Italy itself was too confused for either side to count on)...

Urban proclaimed a crusade against clement and hired the sanguinary Charles of Durazzo to oust the renegade queen Joan from Naples. The English invaded France in order to break it's allegiance with Clement
.
Both Popes found military operations to be expensive, and the papal tax collectors where forced to use ever harsher methods to squeeze every penny out of the constituents...Urban turned more violent and savage. Suspecting his own cardinals of plotting against him, he put them to torture, and five of them died shortly thereafter, probably thrown overboard from the Pope's warship … Urban returned to Rome where he died in 1389. His fourteen cardinals immediately elected a successor..Boniface ix...

This rupture of the church's unity was a terrible trial for believing Catholics."

finally they came across the solution "the resignation of both Popes". A solution they would try when opportunity was present.

"hopes were stirred when the Avignon Pope, clement vii, died in 1394 and each of the candidates to succeed him swore an oath that if elected he would resign his office. But the one elected Benedict XIII...soon showed that he had no intention of honoring his pre-election oath"

at this point war breaks out between France and the French Pope!! "they even laid siege to his palace, but all in vain...France totally capitulated and returned to his (the French Pope benedict) obedience"...

Hopes were once again renewed in 1406 with the election of a new Roman Pope, Gregory XIi who had sworn to resign if "his rival at Avignon would do the same...so finally realistic negotiations seemed about to begin; both Popes agreed to meet to discuss their joint resignations. But then the insincerity of both men surfaced".

At this point a concilar solution was sought whereby a council would meet without approval of either Pope to solve the problem. March 25 1409 ".

.after a brief pause, the Popes were then declared contumacious and schismatical, notorious heretics, guilty of scandalizing the universal church and therefore deposed. The townspeople reacted with wild joy... A new Pope was elected Alexander v.

The miracle was premature. By their haste in electing a Pope the cardinals only aggravated the sickness.. The new Pope Alexandar V, did not even manage to reach his see of Rome before dying at bologna may 3 1410. His successor took the name John XXIII."

eventually Sigismund of Luxembourg was elected holy Roman emperor and called a council that pronounced itself in superiority to all Popes.

"great indeed now was the humiliation of the papacy in all three of it's claimants."

all three successors to the three Pope system were deposed.


At this time they also burned John Huss at the stake!! What a fitting crime.

On November 11, 1417 the used a new system - the cardinals were joined by six delegates of each RC nation - thirty in all - .

That group then selected the next Pope - a complete break from all three papal lines !!!!


In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Is it any wonder non-Catholics want to place a spotlight on the many centuries of the dark ages and show how God not only predicted the apostacy we find that - but also how Catholics need not suffer under such a system?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[CatholicConvert]

Is it any wonder non-Catholics want to place a spotlight on the many centuries of the dark ages and show how God not only predicted the apostacy we find that - but also how Catholics need not suffer under such a system?

Ummmmmmm..could you tell me exactly how Catholics suffer under the teaching of the truth?

I have found it rather liberating myself.

Brother Ed

 

[BobRyan]

I guess that was the part mentioned above about Cahtolics being trained to slaughter fellow catholics in the dark ages.

Or maybe it was the part about the Pope having his cardinals tortured and then tossed over the sides of his Papal Warship. (Imagine Billy Graham having HIS pope-like warship to toss his church leaders over after torturing them).

Or maybe it was the part where Dr. Carroll agrees that the RCC would indeed have burned Billy Graham (or anyone like him) at the stake in the dark ages for teaching then what he taught recently.

Or maybe it was the part where they ....

(I suppose this direct answer to your direct question could go on for some period of time).

The point is - that living in the dark ages is no longer a requirement for our Catholic Bretheren.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[CatholicConvert]

I addressed your comments in another thread. Your prattling on and on about the sins of the people in the Church is growing stale. Why don't you get off it?

You can go back further than just the Church to find sin in the people of God. What about David, King of Israel. He committed adultery and then murder to cover up his first sin. He was the head of the kingdom of God on earth. Did that mean that the kingdom really wasn't of God, because if it did, then we have no Savior, do we?

And you could find legions of sins in the OT alone, such as the sin of Eli the priest.

Or maybe it was the part where Dr. Carroll agrees that the RCC would indeed have burned Billy Graham (or anyone like him) at the stake in the dark ages for teaching then what he taught recently.

You know what? I don't necessarily think that a bad thing. False teaching kills souls. Why don't you go down into hell and dredge up all those who followed Luther's teachings damned themselves. Wonder what they would think about burning Luther before he could poison their souls and damn them forever? Bet they wouldn't mind a bit now!!

Hell is going to be filled with people who will be cursing the false teachers they followed and wishing someone had never ever let the heretic open his mouth to spew out his poisonous and damnable teachings.

And don't forget this: the Church is given the responsibility for the care of men's souls. One does not allow a wolf to roam freely among the sheep, choosing whicheverone he will (except in the Novus Ordo Catholicism of the 20th century). One KILLS THE WOLF!!

'Nuff said.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Priscilla Ann,

You wrote, "It's about exposing false teaching, and speaking the truth in love"

I couldn't agree with you more, as a Catholic. If I saw Catholicism as false teaching, I would certainly wish to speak the truth in love (as I do where I stand) and expose that false teaching. Of course, I do believe that much misunderstanding exists, and that the primary task you have ahead of yourself is to understand (not just learn, but understand) Catholicism before you criticize it. This takes humility.

"Jesus must remain the primary focus."

That is certainly fundamental.

"We must continue to teach salvation through Jesus Christ alone"

Absolutely. No "tradition" or "rule" will save us. We are saved only through the infinite merits of Jesus Christ who purchased the rewards of eternal life for us upon Calvary's Cross.

 

[Priscilla Ann]

Carson:

Believe me when I say that there was a time when I was just as proud of being a Catholic as you are.

It took many years of questions and prayers before I was able to swallow my pride and admit to others that I had wrongly trusted in the manmade traditions of Catholicism rather than the blood of Jesus.

Obviously, you have come to a different conclusion that I did, and I doubt that I could change your mind. I certainly remember that no one could have argued me out of the Catholic Church, and I'm sure the same holds true for you.

God Bless, Carson!

Priscilla Ann

 

[Frogman]

May God Bless you dear sister for your witness to the truth this day.

Bro. Dallas

 

[JFS]

It took many years of questions and prayers before I was able to swallow my pride ...

I wonder if this is the reason why God allows people to leave the Catholic Church? Pride. Do people get so prideful that they belong to the "Right Faith" that God humbles them by leading them out of it?

God Bless You

John

 

[BobRyan]

Catholic Convert speaking of my pointing out Catholic Sources that decry the Dark Ages practices of the Catholic church in "forced conversions and burning people at the stake"...

CathConvert ..
posted October 12, 2003 08:21 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I addressed your comments in another thread. Your prattling on and on about the sins of the people in the Church is growing stale. Why don't you get off it?

You can go back further than just the Church to find sin in the people of God. What about David, King of Israel. He committed adultery and then murder to cover up his first sin. He was the head of the kingdom of God on earth. Did that mean that the kingdom really wasn't of God, because if it did, then we have no Savior, do we?

As you so quickly point out - it is worse than simply knowing the historic fact of those atrocities - rather there remain Catholics today that agree with them still (as you are about to say).

So "beyond" my simply saying something-bad-about-catholic-history -- I am trying to point out the errors in the church that lead to persecution of the saints, that lead to wrong thinking even today and that make it identifiable in scripture as it fell into apostacy.

Far from the sin of one man or two - or the sin of one year or two - it is an entire denomination bringing in doctrinal error, and persecuting chrsitians over a period of centuries.

That means that those who accept the light can turn from the unchristian ideas of burning people at the stake in the dark ages.


quote:Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Or maybe it was the part where Dr. Carroll agrees that the RCC would indeed have burned Billy Graham (or anyone like him) at the stake in the dark ages for teaching then what he taught recently.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cath Convert said --
You know what? I don't necessarily think that a bad thing.

Yes, I fully undertand that. Forced mind-control, torture, burnings at the stake etc are all "acceptable" to people who have placed their conscience under the control of a man - rather than God. If the Pope condoned it in the dark ages - then the people of the dark ages did it "thinking they were serving God, doing God a favor".

CathConvert said --

False teaching kills souls. Why don't you go down into hell and dredge up all those who followed Luther's teachings

Because I would not find them there. They are the saints, persecuted and dying for the faith - and beneficiaries of eternal life.

EVEN the RCC TODAY claims that Lutherans, Baptists etc ARE going to heaven.

The situation COULD NOT BE worse for the RC practices of the dark ages.

CathConvert
Hell is going to be filled with people who will be cursing the false teachers they followed and wishing someone had never ever let the heretic open his mouth to spew out his poisonous and damnable teachings.

ON that point we agree. It is the people in hell that believe in forced mind-control.

CathConvert said --

And don't forget this: the Church is given the responsibility for the care of men's souls. One does not allow a wolf to roam freely among the sheep, choosing whicheverone he will (except in the Novus Ordo Catholicism of the 20th century). One KILLS THE WOLF!!

Funny that in Acts 20 where Paul addresses this - NOT ONE killing! Not even a hint of it.

In fact in all the heresies Paul addressed in the NT church - not ONE killing!

Turn from the dark ages CathConvert! Come into the light. Join the Pope's own blue ribbon group of scholars in condemning the atrocities of the past.

(Notice how your fellow Catholics on this board do not urge you to take this course of action? Well, silent though they may be on that point, I urge you to consider it).

In Christ,

Bob

 

[CatholicConvert]

Because I would not find them there. They are the saints, persecuted and dying for the faith - and beneficiaries of eternal life.

Oh yes you would!!

You better go back and read some history. The German people, upon learning of Luther's teaching that once you believe in Christ, you are forever saved regardless of what you do, turned Germany into a moral cesspool in about 40 years. Luther lived to both see and regret the folly of this teaching. but it is very logical...hey, if you are saved forever once you believe, well.....shoot....anything goes....right?

Now unless you can find a place in scripture which teaches that unrepentant fornicators go to Heaven, you might want to soften that statement a bit.

And what if Luther HAD been burned at the stake? Perhaps millions of Germans might not have followed his pernicious teachings straight into hell.

Think about it.

 

[Frogman]

Here is the scripture, note particularly vs. 8. Is this not a warning and a prevention of your imagined child of God being an unrepentant fornicator?

Bro. Dallas

Hebrews 12:5  And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

 

[BobRyan]

CathConvert --
And what if Luther HAD been burned at the stake? Perhaps millions of Germans might not have followed his pernicious teachings straight into hell.

Still avoiding the point?

Your OWN CHURCH rejects your statement that Lutherans go to hell!!

This is a HUGE problems for all those Catholics burning the saints at the stake because now EVEN the RCC itself admits that Lutherans, Calvinists, Baptists etc are all going to heaven.

You are simply digging your own hole deeper with those kinds of responses. Time to throw away the shovel.

Come on up out of there. Join the Pope's blue ribbon study group of scholars that are condemning the atrocities of the dark ages - "instead" of clinging to them.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Priscilla Ann,

there was a time when I was just as proud of being a Catholic as you are.

God opposes the proud, even when they're right.

I had wrongly trusted in the manmade traditions of Catholicism rather than the blood of Jesus.

If you were placing your trust in manmade traditions rather than in the blood of Jesus, then you were not practicing Catholicism for Catholicism teaches that manmade traditions won't save us but only the infinite merits of Jesus Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

Then why burn Catholic reformers at the stake whose only crime was promoting that very thing?

I smell a coverup.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
I smell a coverup.

Naaahhh... you probably just need a bath.