Why Expose the Errors of Catholicism?

[CatholicConvert]

Your OWN CHURCH rejects your statement that Lutherans go to hell!!

Are you an idiot or just plain unable to read and comprehend? I am getting not only tired of your screed against the Church, but the fact that you cannot read plain English when it is spoke to you!!

I DID NOT say Lutherans!! Okay?? I said FORNICATORS!!! Go back and read it for yourself!!

F*O*R*N*I*C*A*T*O*R*S --- who happen to be Lutheran because they were led by LUTHER!!

Get a grip, will ya???

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
You better go back and read some history. The German people, upon learning of Luther's teaching that once you believe in Christ, you are forever saved regardless of what you do, turned Germany into a moral cesspool in about 40 years. Luther lived to both see and regret the folly of this teaching. but it is very logical...hey, if you are saved forever once you believe, well.....shoot....anything goes....right?

That's interesting. Could you provide a quotation from Luther's writings where he taught once saved, always saved?

 

[faithcontender]

by Catholic Convert

And don't forget this: the Church is given the responsibility for the care of men's souls. One does not allow a wolf to roam freely among the sheep, choosing whicheverone he will (except in the Novus Ordo Catholicism of the 20th century). One KILLS THE WOLF!!

Yes the true church has the responsibilty for the care of men's soul. The Scriptures teach the church to excommunicate the erring or false brethren.

But to kill them if they are in error is not commanded by the LORD. Do the church exactly know wether the erring one will repent or not.

Besides the Lord Jesus Christ came not to kill but to give life. Only those who are thieves ( of Satan ) will kill, destroy and steal.

Jn.
10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

CHRISTIANS LIKE CHRIST ARE MARTYRS NOT KILLERS!!!

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
You better go back and read some history. The German people, upon learning of Luther's teaching that once you believe in Christ, you are forever saved regardless of what you do, turned Germany into a moral cesspool in about 40 years. Luther lived to both see and regret the folly of this teaching. but it is very logical...hey, if you are saved forever once you believe, well.....shoot....anything goes....right?

Posted by John Gilmore:
That's interesting. Could you provide a quotation from Luther's writings where he taught once saved, always saved?

"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly... . No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."

I think that quote, which is attributed to Luther, may be what Catholic Convert had in mind.

 

[faithcontender]

Turn from the dark ages CathConvert! Come into the light. Join the Pope's own blue ribbon group of scholars in condemning the atrocities of the past.

(Notice how your fellow Catholics on this board do not urge you to take this course of action? Well, silent though they may be on that point, I urge you to consider it).

Bob, maybe they still believe on it.

Please read these:

http://www.biblebelievers.com/bennett/bennett_papal_persecution.html

 

[Priscilla Ann]

Carson:

Some of your comments seem to suggest that anyone who leaves Catholicism could not possibly have understood what Catholicism teaches, or that they could not possibly have been a faithful Catholic. I assure you that is not the case.

With all due respect, Carson, I was a faithfully practicing Catholic for more years than you have been alive. (No pride intended!)

God Bless!

Priscilla Ann

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Priscilla Ann,

In no way do I mean to imply that a catechized and faithful Catholic will not leave the faith; I have a number of personal friends who have.

The issue at hand, which I addressed, is what saves us. Your representation of Catholicism was more of a misrepresentation. Whether that is intentional or not, I don't know. If it wasn't intentional, perhaps you weren't all that catechized and should humbly admit that you are in error with regard to Catholic doctrine. If it was, then perhaps you should apologize for the misrepresentation.

 

[faithcontender]

Carson,

As former catholics we know what we believed before. When Priscilla Ann says that she trusted man-made tradition before rather than the blood of Christ. She is telling us that, trusting in Jesus' blood is 100% confidence that she is already saved without any sacraments.

But when you say you are trusting the blood of Christ you mean through the sacraments. Now that is man made traditions for in no way we can find it the Bible. Only the blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sin. 1 Jn. 1: 7. Not the sacrament of baptism.

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
You better go back and read some history. The German people, upon learning of Luther's teaching that once you believe in Christ, you are forever saved regardless of what you do, turned Germany into a moral cesspool in about 40 years. Luther lived to both see and regret the folly of this teaching. but it is very logical...hey, if you are saved forever once you believe, well.....shoot....anything goes....right?

Posted by John Gilmore:
That's interesting. Could you provide a quotation from Luther's writings where he taught once saved, always saved?

"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly... . No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."

I think that quote, which is attributed to Luther, may be what Catholic Convert had in mind. </font>[/QUOTE]Your quote is from a private letter sent to a fellow pastor describing the exercise of the office of the keys. In the letter, Luther opines that terrified sinners should be taught that Christ's perfect sacrifice covers their past sins no matter how terrible. Nowhere in the letter does he teach "once saved, always saved."

Of course, you can only know and absolve those sins which have been confessed to you; sins which have not been confessed to you, you neither need to know nor can you absolve them. That is reaching too high. . .
If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.
Letter to Melanchthon
On the day of the Feast of St. Peter the Apostle, 1521

 

[Priscilla Ann]

Carson:

Can you tell me how I misrepresented Catholicism?

Priscilla Ann

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Priscilla Ann,

See my post dated October 12, 2003 09:54 PM.

 

[Priscilla Ann]

Carson:

Paragraph 1129 states, "The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation." Please note that the reference cited is not scripture, but rather the Council of Trent.

Carson, do you believe that Jesus came to this earth with the intent of setting up a sacramental system, upon which salvation is dependent?

Priscilla Ann

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Priscilla,

You asked, "Carson, do you believe that Jesus came to this earth with the intent of setting up a sacramental system, upon which salvation is dependent?"

Of course I do. I'm a Catholic.. and as a Catholic, I believe that the Life, Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ is the efficient cause of our salvation. No matter how "good" we are, we could never "merit heaven". Even if we were perfect and lived without ever committing one sin, we would still not merit heaven; we would merely merit Earthly Paradise. With that said, even one sin would merit eternal damnation. This is why we are in need of the free gift of salvation won for us on Calvary's Cross.

Because God works through salvation history by means of the covenant, in the New Covenant, we experience the blessings of the covenant by partaking in the covenant oaths (Latin: sacramentum). Baptism entails our entry into the Family of God (John 3:5), and the Eucharist is our opportunity to renew the covenant by partaking in the sacrificial covenant meal (John 6:54.

The sacraments - because we are saved through the covenant forged by the blood of Jesus Christ - give us a participation (Gk. oikononia; See 1 Cor 10:16) in the blessings Christ has won for us (See Romans 6). They are the instrumental cause of salvation, as clearly evinced in Scripture (Cf. 1 Peter 3:18-21).

 

[Priscilla Ann]

Carson:

So when were you born again? Was it when you were baptized? (If you are a cradle Catholic, I assume you were baptized as an infant.) Or were you born again when you first accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior?

As for me (cradle Catholic), I was baptized as an infant. But I was not born again until I repented of my sins and accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I was brought to that point of brokenness and repentance by hearing the Word of God. Romans 10:17 says, "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."

Paul humbly explained it so well in 1 Cor. 2:2-5:
"For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified."

Carson, don't make it so complicated. I certainly don't have your education and training. Perhaps my posts are not as impressive as yours, but the message of the cross is simple enough for even a child to understand.

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who aare perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God." 1 Cor. 1:18

God Bless, Carson!

Priscilla Ann

 

[Priscilla Ann]

Carson:

Paragraph 2010 of the Catechism reads as follows:

"Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can merit for ourselves and for others the graces need needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life."

Carson, how do you interpret this? After initial justification, we can merit graces for ourselves and for others? Does this refer to good works or prayers for dead? Again, I noticed that there is no scriptural reference listed in the Catechism.

Just wondering how you interpret Paragraph 2010.

That's all from me for tonight...I promise!

God Bless!

Priscilla Ann

 

[Frogman]

Thanks Priscilla Ann
These guys are always telling me I am speaking on the Catholic faith from ignorance because I haven't read any of the catechism.

Now, what I have read of it is no different than what I was already speaking, pretty good to be speaking from ignorance...wouldn't you say?

I would guess they secretly hope I don't read it.

If Carson keeps on, in a few nights I will be able to read it in latin and greek too probably.

 

[BobRyan]

Carson said -- The sacraments - because we are saved through the covenant forged by the blood of Jesus Christ - give us a participation (Gk. oikononia; See 1 Cor 10:16) in the blessings Christ has won for us (See Romans 6). They are the instrumental cause of salvation, as clearly evinced in Scripture (Cf. 1 Peter 3:18-21).

This is a good example of inserting an error taught in Catholicism into the text of scripture. In 1Peter 3 we see that "Corresponding to that - Baptism now saves you - NOT the magical sacramental touch of magic water on the skin - BUT RATHER the Appeal to God for a clean conscience".

Taking that text - as his "proof" that the magical holy waters of the Baptismal sacrament are "what causes salvation" or as Carson said above "the Cause of Salvation" he turns the text on its head.

As the errors of Catholicism evolved they resulted in the case Carson represents in his quote above. This is why the Catholic writer, historian and best selling author Thomas Bokenkotter observes that the NT Pastors/Elders/presbyters were at first - Bible teachers and "refused to be called priests". But as the practice and tradition of magical "sacraments" begin to evolve "his role as Bible teacher dimished" and the role as administrator of magical sacraments took its place.

After all - an infant could not be benefitted by the teaching of the Word and YET the magical waters of the Baptismal sacrament coulde "save" the soul. Thus (according to Bokenkotter) entered the rift between what emerged as the sacred clergy vs the profane laity.

Healing the rift, removing the superstitions of man made traditions and restoring the Bible to its rightful place of authority is the "benefit" of turning from the errors found in the RCC.

(And yes I know - for some all they will read here is "yada-yada-yada-something-bad-about-catholics)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Someone has already posted this on this thread - but I found this fascinating.

In March of the same year, the Roman Catholic Archbishop Bohn of Brazil announced at the 31st National Conference of Bishops in Brazil, "We will declare a holy war, don't doubt it? the Catholic Church has a ponderous structure, but when we move we'll smash anyone beneath us." The article reporting on statement went on to comment,

According to Bohn, an all-out holy war can't be avoided unless the 11 largest Protestant churches and denominations sign a treaty — [which] would require Protestants to stop evangelization in Brazil. In exchange, he said, Catholics would agree to stop all persecution directed towards Protestants. Bohn called his proposal an "ultimatum", and said it would leave no room for discussion."

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Carson said --
In no way do I mean to imply that a catechized and faithful Catholic will not leave the faith; I have a number of personal friends who have.

Good point. In fact Wycliff, Luther, and other Catholic reformers where recognized as the brightest lights within Catholicism in their day - and still many refused to follow their light as they discovered Bible truths that called for reform in the church.

How sad.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Someone has already posted this on this thread - but I found this fascinating.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
In March of the same year, the Roman Catholic Archbishop Bohn of Brazil announced at the 31st National Conference of Bishops in Brazil, "We will declare a holy war, don't doubt it? the Catholic Church has a ponderous structure, but when we move we'll smash anyone beneath us." The article reporting on statement went on to comment,

According to Bohn, an all-out holy war can't be avoided unless the 11 largest Protestant churches and denominations sign a treaty — [which] would require Protestants to stop evangelization in Brazil. In exchange, he said, Catholics would agree to stop all persecution directed towards Protestants. Bohn called his proposal an "ultimatum", and said it would leave no room for discussion."

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Bro. Bob,
I know missionaries in Brazil, I don't know what year the above is referring to, but these missionaries went in the early sixties, this war has already been declared.

The glorious thing about this is that in persecution the true church grows in the Grace that is in Christ Jesus.
Bro. Dallas