Why Expose the Errors of Catholicism?

[Ray Berrian]

I had hear of reports in the '60's of Catholic persecution in South America. This is nothing new in our day. That's why the Apostle John said in Revelation seventeen, 'And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus . . . ' When ever there is not a strong democracy with human rights in nations, Christians suffer.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Priscilla Ann,

I was born into the race of Adam, alienated from the Covenant People of God, foreign to the grace of God, estranged from heaven and its eternal blessings. I was born again in baptism, when I entered the Covenant Family of God by means of what it takes to enter a covenant: an oath. No oath, no covenant. This is how the NT authors and the Early Church understood baptism. It is our sacramental (i.e., oath) means of entering into the New Covenant blessings (i.e., eternal life) gained for us by our sacrificial lamb (i.e., the God-Man, Jesus Christ).

Just like when I was born to my mother, I had nothing to do with it. So, when I was born into God's family, it was nothing that I had to do with it, but it was all God's grace. By baptizing infants, the complete and unmerited mercy of God is expressed completely.

I had absolutely nothing to do with my baptism on February 25, 1979 at St. Louis Catholic Church in Waco Texas, 50 days after I was born at Hillcrest Baptist Hospital in the same city. I was given the indwelling grace of the Blessed Trinity with absolutely no doing on my own part.

After initial justification, we can merit graces for ourselves and for others?

This requires a more comprehensive reading of the Catechism, not picking from just paragraph 2010. I encourage you to read paragraphs 2008, 2009, and 2011 (NB: one of my favorite sections in the Catechism).

In these other paragraphs, you will read that our merits proceed from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit (2008). That means that ultimately, our merits aren't our own, as St. Terese of Lisieux is quoted as saying in paragraph 2011.

For those of you who do not have access to a Catechism, I encourage you to use the search engine here:

http://www.christusrex.org/www2/kerygma/ccc/searchcat.html

[ October 14, 2003, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[faithcontender]

I was born again in baptism, when I entered the Covenant Family of God by means of what it takes to enter a covenant: an oath. No oath, no covenant. This is how the NT authors and the Early Church understood baptism. It is our sacramental (i.e., oath) means of entering into the New Covenant blessings (i.e., eternal life) gained for us by our sacrificial lamb (i.e., the God-Man, Jesus Christ).

Hi Carson,

How can you enter into covenant when you were an infant before? You said to enter the covenant is by oath. How can you perform an oath if you don't even know your name as an infant?

You said you did not do anything on your part. If your parents perform an oath they are the one who entered into covenant not you.

If the covenant needs an oath then it follows that only adult that believed should be baptized not infants.

 

[Stephen III]

Priscilla said:

Carson, don't make it so complicated. I certainly don't have your education and training. Perhaps my posts are not as impressive as yours, but the message of the cross is simple enough for even a child to understand.

Priscilla, Don't sell yourself so short! You ask very good questions that have very good answers forthcoming. Your challenge will be maintaining your humility when confronted with the Truth of Christ in his Catholic Church.

God Bless you.

 

[A_Christian]

Make sure that you study your Bible and don't rely on the wisdom of others. None but the Holy Spirit.

 

[dumbox1]

Make sure that you study your Bible and don't rely on the wisdom of others. None but the Holy Spirit.

Of course, that means you'll have to stop reading the Baptist Board. But it's been nice knowing you!


Mark

 

[Ray Berrian]

How about studying---www.douay version. The Catholic Bible will get you back on course. The www. was just for fun. If you don't have a Douay version, I'll send you a KJV, if you are so moved by the Spirit.

Romans 10:9 'That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.' I don't know too many, if any newborns, who can make this kind of verbal commitment to the Lord. Do you?
Saved without baptism? Isn't God great?!

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi faithcontender,

Throughout the history of Israel, Israelite infants were circumcized by their parents on the eighth day, whereby they gained entrance into the Old Covenant family of God. So, it is certainly possible.

In the New Testament, God does the work for us. Baptism is God's work (an opus Dei). His minister, acting with his authority (see Matthew 28:18-20) baptizes the pagan in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The New Covenant is for everyone, not just the learned or aged. Unfortunately, since the dawn of Protestantism, some sects have denied entry into the New Covenant to infants, which is in direct contradiction with what Peter proclaimed during his first catechetical sermon at Pentecost.

 

[Priscilla Ann]

Carson:

I have a question in regard to baptism and the Holy Spirit. Paragraphs 1272 through 1274 of the Catechism explains baptism and the Holy Spirit. If I'm understanding these paragraphs correctly, upon baptism the the infant receives the seal of the Holy Spirit. Is that correct? Confirmation is then the renewal of those baptismal promises?

Is my understanding correct?

Blessings!

Priscilla Ann

 

[CatholicConvert]

The principle by which infants can be entered into the covenant without their conscious assent is called the principle of Covenantal Hierarchy. We see this principle throughout the scriptures and it begins all the way back in Genesis.

St. Paul describes this for us thusly:

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Notice that the sin of our covenantal head, Adam, is placed upon us all. In essence, he acts on behalf of the entire human race when he breaks God's law, and before you or I were born, before we could even say "yea" or "nay" to his act, we are counted sinners and cast from Paradise with him.

Since God applies sin to us in this manner, it is only consistent with His justness that He allow this principle to apply to righteousness as well. Thus, when the covenantal head of a family circumcized his son, that child was entered into the kingdom on the strength of the father's faith. And in like manner, with the covenantal sign/seal of the New Covenant, the children baptized into the kingdom are entered through the faith of the parents.

Actually, since it is Jesus Who does the baptizing, the priest being only the tool that is used for the rite, one could say that it relly is the faith of Jesus Himself which brings us back into the covenant of God. Jesus is the Last Adam (1 Corin. 15:45) and therefore, He reverses in like manner all that the first Adam destroyed. Thus, when Adam acts for us without our consent and severs us from God, Jesus acts without our consent and restores that fellowship. Even the faith we have as adults being baptized is relly His gift to us, for the Catholic Faith recognizes that all comes from Him.

I hope that makes sense. There is a website where you can read a book on covenantalism. It is the I.C.E. Freebooks Website and there is a book there by Ray Sutton which explains the 5 principles which make up a covenant. The book is THAT YOU MAY PROSPER -- Dominion by Covenant. I strongly recommend it to get a good foundation in the covenant. Then read Scott Hahn's A FATHER WHO KEEPS HIS PROMISE and you will get the rest of the picture, for Hahn puts the beauty of the flesh on Sutton's skeletal foundation of covenant.

Happy reading!!

Brother Ed

PS Priscilla Ann....I just saw your post and have to add this addendum.

Confirmation is that time when the child, having been instructed in the faith, makes the covenant his or her own. Until that time, in innocency and learning, the child is covered by the faith of the hierarchial head. All of us must make covenant for our own, but it is made upon a conscious decision. God does not penalize the child who cannot make that decision as an infant, but allows for the faith of the covenantal head of the family to stand in for the child. And certainly you must admit that this is not only fair, but consistent with the way the covenant worked in the OT, right?

 

[BobRyan]

Throughout the history of Israel, Israelite infants were circumcized by their parents on the eighth day, whereby they gained entrance into the Old Covenant family of God. So, it is certainly possible.

The NT authors 'never' says "corresponding to circumcision - baptism now saves you".

No such type-antitype is drawn between baptism and circumcision. Worse - for the RC case attempted above - we find those who were already circumcised being told that they needed to be Baptized. (See John 1).

So what DO we find as the spiritual application in the NT for circumcision.


Please read Romans 2 as it speaks to that point. Notice "the details".

And I know there are those on this board fully capable of finding those details and seeing what they say.

Based on "the details" only a mature - "believing" saint could participate in EITHER the OT or the NT - in the "Spiritual application" of circumcision.

But of course - those reading the details - already knew that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Priscilla Ann]

Brother Ed:

Ephesians 1:13-14 says, "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who aare God's possession -- to the praise of his glory."

If I understand those verses correctly, it would seem that we enter into the new covenant by faith when we believe, and that we receive the Holy Spirit at that time. Do those verses agree with Catholic teaching on infant baptism and the new covenant?

What are your thoughts on Ephesians 1:13-14?

God Bless!

Priscilla Ann

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Priscilla Ann,

I thought you were a "faithfully practicing Catholic for more years" than I have been alive. If that's so, why are you asking me basic catechetical questions?

What happened to Jesus at his baptism, happens to us at our baptism. The Holy Spirit descends upon us, we're declared God's beloved children, and we are anointed for mission.

What happened at Pentecost happens to us at our confirmation. The Holy Spirit descends upon us, and we're strengthened to proclaim the Good News of Jesus Christ to the ethne (Eng. "nations").

The sacraments are our means of participation in the Paschal Mystery of Jesus Christ. We, in the here and now, participate in those historical events that occurred once in time. In baptism, we are really and truly submerged with the life of Christ. His death becomes our own. "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" (Rom 6:3). His resurrection becomes our own. His sonship becomes our own. His priesthood becomes our own.

In Chrismation (a.k.a. Confirmation), we receive - as did the disciples at Pentecost - an increase and deepening of baptismal grace, an increase of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us, a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Jesus boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross.

 

[Priscilla Ann]

Carson:

I am asking these "basic" questions because you indicated that you didn't think I understood the Catholic faith, and you suggested that I must have been "poorly catechized".

By the way, do you read a lot of Scott Hahn? A lot of what you write sounds a lot like some of what he writes, especially regarding the new covenant. Just wondering...

Priscilla Ann

Priscilla Ann

 

[AngelforChrist]

I was born again in baptism, when I entered the Covenant Family of God by means of what it takes to enter a covenant: an oath. No oath, no covenant. This is how the NT authors and the Early Church understood baptism. It is our sacramental (i.e., oath) means of entering into the New Covenant blessings (i.e., eternal life) gained for us by our sacrificial lamb (i.e., the God-Man, Jesus Christ)

Ok , Id like to know exactly how being water baptised can be signified as being any part of a "covenant " since ALL Gods covenants are sealed with blood? You mentioned circumscision - is there not blood with it? Yes there is .

When Christ died on the cross , His blood was shed , and it was finished ("entered in ONCE for ALL and OBTAINED Eternal redemption), why would we add something to the gospel by claiming we need yet another covenent of water this time?

Even the marriage covenant ideally would be sealed with blood , if the woman was a virgin when the marriage occured , can you think of any other reason for a woman to have a hymen? Once its gone , its gone for good , served no purpose whatever accroding to science . Evolutionists certainly cant explain it . God revealed to me that it was for the purpose of sealing the covenant like all His covenants are sealed and marriage is the picture of the trinity , God , man , woman - sealed (bound) into one with blood (ideally).

So again , how can water seal a covenant ? As far as your stating the infants in the OT entering in , you cant claim it with the new covenant that requires faith that results in grace , unless you can show how an infant can express faith . You wont find one example in the NT where anyone repented and believed on behalf of another .

 

[BobRyan]

More Scripture -- details for our RC bretheren to ignore if they choose --

1Pet 3:
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good consciencethrough the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Peter directs us away from thinking of the "magic sacramental waters of baptism" and instead
states explicitly that INSTEAD of a "magic sacrament" the REAL saving aspect is in the heart's knowing - deliberate - active "APPEAL to God for a good conscience". THAT is the sense in which baptism saves for it is a public symbol that the sinner has already made that appeal.

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Saved - Salvation to those who BELIEVE. The fact that one who BELIEVES and is saved will CONTINUE to read and study and obey - does not abolish the fact of salvation
JUST as stated above - at the time we believe.

Romans 10:
10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness,
and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”

12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED

In Christ,

Bob

 

[John Gilmore]

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.Mark 16:16

This one verse exposes the errors of the Catholics and most Protestants. If you believe faith only justifies, then baptism can not be a human work. If you believe baptism saves, then faith only justifies.

What if we can not receive the desired baptism? The Lord tells us that only unbelief damns.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Priscilla Ann,

I am asking these "basic" questions because you indicated that you didn't think I understood the Catholic faith, and you suggested that I must have been "poorly catechized".

That doesn't flow.. if you were catechized well, what's with the need to inquire?

By the way, do you read a lot of Scott Hahn?

Oui, madame. I work for him.

http://www.SalvationHistory.com

His new book, which is coming out Spring '04 may interest you; it'll be entitled Swear to God (my roommate is editing it as I type this post) and will study the nature of covenant in greater detail with emphasis on the unity between the OT and NT.

What sounds "Hahn" to you are the terms "oath", "covenant", "family of God", etc., but in all truth, these are key terms in Biblical theology; anyone steeped in a study of the Bible (esp. the OT) is greatly familiar with this terminology and this line of thought. Hahn simply translates Biblical scholarship into our language, down to our level of understanding. Very little of what he explicates originates with him.

[ October 15, 2003, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
But what is the "real truth" about WHY non-Catholics bother with exposing the errors in the Catholic church?

The real truth is that non-Catholics, including myself, will be more than happy to expose the errors of everyone but their own denominations. It's a rather old story: believing that there is no long in our own eyes. We do this because it's easier to see at the misgivings of others than the misgivings of ourselves. People do this all the time in all aspects of life. It makes them feel better about themselves. Why do we think it would be different among the religion aspect?

 

[CatholicConvert]

Ok , Id like to know exactly how being water baptised can be signified as being any part of a "covenant " since ALL Gods covenants are sealed with blood? You mentioned circumscision - is there not blood with it? Yes there is .

You are quite correct and I commend you for seeing this....without blood there is no covenant. Most people do not see this.

There are two possibilities which come to mind for me...

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

I find this the most probable, since it goes along the lines of Romans 5:12. We participated in Adam's sin, even though we were not physically present. Therefore, we also participate in Christ's crucifixion, being crucified with Him and hence, the reality of blood, His Blood, being shed on our behalf. So there is blood present in the making of the covenant, but it is Christ's Blood. We participate in that blood when we enter into it by baptism, and again when we offer that Blood for our sins in the Eucharist to renew the covenant when we have broken it by our sins.

The other idea would have to do with the teaching that "the life of the flesh is in the blood". Blood symbolizes the giving of the whole life to God Therefore, baptism is now a symbol of giving our whole life to God. We can no longer enter into a blood covenant, because if we did, we would be denying that Jesus was the Christ. You see, circumcision was an "enacted prophecy" in which every circumcision pointed to the Messiah. It pointed to his shedding blood, to his being male, and to his being "cut off" in the flesh for the sins of his people.

Now if we continue that rite, we are continuing a prophecy and therefore denying that Jesus is the Christ. That is why the apostles were so dead set against circumcision when the Judiasers were trying to introduce it into the Church.

When Christ died on the cross , His blood was shed , and it was finished ("entered in ONCE for ALL and OBTAINED Eternal redemption), why would we add something to the gospel by claiming we need yet another covenent of water this time?

It is not another covenant. It is the means by which we are entered into the New Covenant, and as I mentioned before, we cannot shed blood this time because we would be denying that Jesus was the Christ. We are baptized because baptism points back to the finished work of Christ and identifies us with Him in that work. It is also an oath by which we are saying to God..."If I break this covenant I am entering into, may eternal death, symbolized by my being immersed in this water, be the curse upon me." All covenants are entered into with oaths/sanctions as one of the 5 covenantal principles.

Even the marriage covenant ideally would be sealed with blood , if the woman was a virgin when the marriage occured , can you think of any other reason for a woman to have a hymen?

OUTSTANDING!!!! I am so pleased that you see this!! Now take the covenant of marriage and apply marital principles to our covenant with God (we ARE the Bride of Christ!) and you will perhaps begin to understand the Catholic Faith.

So again , how can water seal a covenant ? As far as your stating the infants in the OT entering in , you cant claim it with the new covenant that requires faith that results in grace , unless you can show how an infant can express faith . You wont find one example in the NT where anyone repented and believed on behalf of another.

I covered this in a post above. Adam disbelieved and God counted it to all mankind, therefore, it is perfectly consistent with God for a man to believe and God count it to mankind. Jesus, as a man, as perfect humanity among us, believed God and by that perfect faith, we are brought to God. We are given faith, and it is HIS faith for faith is a gift according to Scripture.

You take grace and make it a work. Grace is that God gives us "unmerited" favor. If we must believe and THEN God gives us salvation,

welllll.....isn't that "earning" salvation?

THINK ABOUT IT!!!

As for water sealing the covenant, I would agree with you. The Blood of Christ seals the covenant on our behalf. Baptism merely enters us into the experience of that Blood on the Cross, based on Romans 6:3. It is called "the principle of organic unity." We are united to Christ by baptism....when we are united, His blood covenant becomes ours also, His death ours, and His resurrection life ours.

Beautiful!!

Brother Ed