Why Have Denominations?

[DHK]

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

You're still sure about this Frank?? I can't believe that you guys would allegorize the Book of Revelation away like this? Is there still a Heaven?
DHK

 

[Eric B]

Thebook tells us that incense is s symbol of the prayers of the saints. The other symbols you can find if you look really hard in the OT. But we do not see this with the instruments. It was later Church leaders who first came up with these "allegorical" interpretations of them.

 

[Frank]

DHk:
Absolutely, the VOICE of harpers harping with their harps. Metaphorical consistent with the other metaphors in the same verse. Harps represents the praise to God, not literal playing of one. There is no evidence there is or was any playing of the harps. if not why not, and how do you know?
Why do you believe harps is literal and the rest of the pasages are metaphorical or figurative? Or, do you believe this to be so?

 

[Frank]

Eric:
Christians throughout the ages have recognized the book of Revelation to contain figurative language. The book was writtne using many symbols to encourage God's peole during a time of death and persecution. Rev. 2:10. Therefore, not to add bonds to the afflictions of his people, Jesus used language that would be hidden from the heathen gentile. (Rome). Jesus used many figurative and metaphorical terms during his ministry. Jesus said, except a corn of wheat fall to the groudn and die it abideth alone, but if it die it bringeth forth much fruit. I believe people understood he was referring to himself and not the literal corn of wheat.

 

[DHK]

Frank,
How can "harping with harps" be figurative? Please explain your figurative allegorical meaning.

 

[Eric B]

Still, every single word is not figurative. And I showed a long time ago, that "voice" is simply "sound". Funny, you take that word (in modern English) literal!

 

[Claudia_T]

Just glancing over some of the posts on here it seems to me that someone need to go read this article about sacrificing animals, keeping old testament feast days, etc:


http://www.remnantofgod.org/Yah-feast.htm

To continue on doing that is an insult to Jesus.

(Teaching that you're not supposed to use musical instruments in worship is absurd also because God's people are recorded as having used instruments).

It always amazes me how some will ignore the things God TELLS them to do and then they start to put restrictions on things He NEVER told them to do. It reminds me of how the religious leaders in Christ's day would do everything possible to avoid actually keeping God's Law, but then they would tack on all sorts of overly strict rules that they themselves created in effort to someone try to appear holy in the eyes of the people.


I find it absolutely disgusting that anyone would actually advocate sacrificing animals. It was done in Old Testament times to point to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and doing so was supposed to impress upon the mind of the one who did it... the terrible enormity of sin and how One would come to take upon Himself our sins.

And to think that some claim they somehow need to sacrifice animals TODAY "to help them in their worship" is truly an insult to Jesus and the sacrifice that He made for us.

Jesus is quite enough to ponder upon as the true sacrifice for our sins... and to sacrifice an animal today amounts to nothing more than pure ignorance and absolute cruelty to animals.

sorry but Im having a hard time concealing my disgust.

..did I really read someone advocating this on this message board? maybe it was just my imagination.

--------

Claudia Thompson

http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
http://www.christiangraphics.org

 

[Claudia_T]

Just as a side note, what I mean about Christians ignoring what God DOES tell them to do and then adding on all sorts of their own man-made rules... Look at how many times the New Testament says to keep the commandments... yet so many Christians today ignore that and then come up with all sorts of weird and absurd things in their place:

Mt:5:19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mt:15:9: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mt:19:17: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mt:22:40: On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mk:7:7: Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mk:10:19: Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Mk:12:29: And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Lk:1:6: And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Lk:18:20: Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

Jn:14:15: If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jn:14:21: He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jn:15:10: If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Acts:1:2: Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

1Cor:7:19: Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.


Ti:1:14: Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

1Jn:2:3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn:3:22: And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn:3:24: And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jn:5:2: By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jn:5:3: For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jn:1:6: And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rv:14:12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rv:22:14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Why dont you worry about doing what God plainly tells you to do and stop trying to prove your "holiness" by forbidding what He never forbade us to do?

 

[Frank]

Dhk:

The verse employs figurative language. Please note the use of as and the conjunction and in the verse. I heard the voice of harpers harping on their harps. How do harpers use their voices to harp on their harps? Voices use words not sound. This is likely a reference to the praise in heaven.

Furthermore, spiritual beings have no use for the physical, and heaven is a spiritual place. The former things are passed away. II Pet. 3:9,10.

 

[Frank]

Claudia:
Quote/
(Teaching that you're not supposed to use musical instruments in worship is absurd also because God's people are recorded as having used instruments).

Please provide one verse in the new testament of Christ that authorizes the use of mechanical instruments. The bible says that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, NOT THE LACK OF THE WORD. Romans 10:17. You will not find one verse to support the use of instruments in worship to God by the authority of Christ.
The practice was absent in the church for over 500 years. The Catholics began the practice in 600's A.D.
Please explain why the church did not use them for five hundred years?

 

[Frank]

Eric:
You have proved nothing from the passage that sustains your argument. The verse employs symbols that are figurative. The voice of harpers harping on their harps is not sound. Voices use words. Harps are plucked.
However, if one takes the totality of the evidence, he finds that the heart strings can be plucked ( like as a harp) with the result being voices( voices of harpers harping on their harps words used to communicate) using words to communciate a spiritual message. Col. 3:16, Eph. 5:19.
By the way, spiritual beings will have no use for the physical in heaven. The former things are passed away, II Pet. 3:8,10. However, that is your problem.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Frank: "Please explain why the church did not use them for five hundred years?"

For the same reason that most local churches
did not pave their parking lots until
about 50 years ago. BTW, paved parking lots
help prevent folks working on The Lord's Day -
all those vehicles getting stuck when it
rains.

Meanwhile, it has been over half the topic since
anybody even mentioned an argument (point)
pro- or con- about denominationalism -- you
know, the SUBJECT of this topic.

Again, i claim that 27% of the denominations were
begun by folks trying to end denominationalism.
I think God uses denominationalism to reach
a maximum number of people.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Frank: "Please explain why the church did not use them for five hundred years?"

For the same reason that most local churches
did not pave their parking lots until
about 50 years ago. BTW, paved parking lots
help prevent folks working on The Lord's Day -
all those vehicles getting stuck when it
rains.

Meanwhile, it has been over half the topic since
anybody even mentioned an argument (point)
pro- or con- about denominationalism -- you
know, the SUBJECT of this topic.

Again, i claim that 27% of the denominations were
begun by folks trying to end denominationalism.
I think God uses denominationalism to reach
a maximum number of people.

Your arguement is that did use them because they didn't have them? They had them. They were present. God did not command them.

This is the heart of why we have denominations. Men doing what pleases them, rather than based on what God said.

If man used God's word as the authority, and left out his own wants and desires, there would be no instrumental music in any worship service today.

If man used God's word as the authority for worship, there would be no denominations or divisions, we would all be of the same mind and same judgment and there would be no divisons among us.

 

[Charles Meadows]

If man used God's word as the authority, and left out his own wants and desires, there would be no instrumental music in any worship service today.

That is certainly not true. There is no prohibition of instruments. And the wording of the NT passages can actually be seen as supporting instruments.

Bottom line here: This is not enough of a big deal to argue over.

If man used God's word as the authority for worship, there would be no denominations or divisions, we would all be of the same mind and same judgment and there would be no divisons among us.

That much is true. But that undivided body would not at all resemble the modern CoC, with its old testament legalistic hangups on issues as unimportant as the use of instruments in worship. The CoC, as I have said before, attempts to make Jesus a legalist on the order of the Pharisees. This is serious error.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:
Dhk:

The verse employs figurative language. Please note the use of as and the conjunction and in the verse. I heard the voice of harpers harping on their harps. How do harpers use their voices to harp on their harps? Voices use words not sound. This is likely a reference to the praise in heaven.

Furthermore, spiritual beings have no use for the physical, and heaven is a spiritual place. The former things are passed away. II Pet. 3:9,10.

I believe your allegorization of this passage is ludicrous as it leads to the allegorization of the entire book, even to heaven itself.

There are other musical instruments mentioned in heaven as well, outside of the book of Revelation, which are spoken of in a much more literal sense:

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
--What were the angels actually given? Their voices??

There are literal instruments in heaven: both trumpets and harps. The harps (not simply voices) were given to the angels. They were harping on their harps. A harp is a harp is a harp.
DHK

 

[mman]

That is certainly not true. There is no prohibition of instruments. And the wording of the NT passages can actually be seen as supporting instruments.

Bottom line here: This is not enough of a big deal to argue over. [/QUOTE}

You say there is not prohibition. God did not prohibit many many things. We are not governed by what God did not say, but we are governed by what God did say.

Answer this one question. How do we know what God wants in our worship? By what he said or by what he didn't say?

What would be your advise to Nadab and Abihu? It doesn't matter where you get your fire. God didn't say not to get it from there.

What would be your advise to Noah? It doesn't matter what kind of wood you use as long as you use some gopherwood. God didn't say not to use some oak and oak is really pretty and it would add to the beauty of the ark.

If man used God's word as the authority for worship, there would be no denominations or divisions, we would all be of the same mind and same judgment and there would be no divisons among us.

That much is true. But that undivided body would not at all resemble the modern CoC, with its old testament legalistic hangups on issues as unimportant as the use of instruments in worship. The CoC, as I have said before, attempts to make Jesus a legalist on the order of the Pharisees. This is serious error.

The CofC is not the one trying to drag OT forms of worship into the New Testament.

When Jesus said the words that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day, was he being a legalist? What is your definition of a legalist? One who follows the instuctions given in the New Testament?

When Jesus said, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, was he kidding? If I accept this plain teaching, that a third grader can understand and would have to have help to misunderstand it, am I a legalist?

God's word is truth (John 17:17). True worshipers will worship according to truth (John 4:23-24). Therefore, to worship according to truth is to base our worship on what God said.

If one adds what he whats because it is not prohibited, that is not worshipping according to truth.

 

[Charles Meadows]

Mman,

Answer this one question. How do we know what God wants in our worship? By what he said or by what he didn't say?

How do we know? By reading scripture. Not by reading one verse and trying to spin a whole doctrine off of it.

Jesus knew what was in the hearts of people. He said one day we will worship in spirit and in truth. Just look at what you're saying. Worship is acceptable only if it involves singing but not playing? It doesn't matter about the heart behind it? You have missed the whole point. What if we sing 20th century songs and not the ancient eastern songs sung by the church. God DIDN'T authorize the use of western scales in worship music. Does this mean our worship is not received? God didn't authorize the use of any electric apparatus either.

This is yet another example of how the CoC is denomination with severe misunderstandings of scripture. Sad.

 

[Eric B]

Come to think of it; all of what they sang were probably scriptures themselves. Since when did God authorize songs of human composition? And you can't even use that "expedient" line; because there were always plenty of psalms to sing!

You have proved nothing from the passage that sustains your argument. The verse employs symbols that are figurative. The voice of harpers harping on their harps is not sound. Voices use words. Harps are plucked.

It doesn't say "WORDS". You added that to the text based on your literal reading of "voice". (actually, a voice can hum or scat a melody without words at all!). "sound" is inclusive all all of it. The notes of instruments, human voices sining words or humming notes.

However, if one takes the totality of the evidence, he finds that the heart strings can be plucked ( like as a harp) with the result being voices( voices of harpers harping on their harps words used to communicate) using words to communciate a spiritual message. Col. 3:16, Eph. 5:19.

You're the one who has not proven that this is the only "plucking" meant, and thus the only sound allowed.

By the way, spiritual beings will have no use for the physical in heaven. The former things are passed away, II Pet. 3:8,10. However, that is your problem.

But we're not in Heaven yet, so the fact that it may not be a "physical" thing for them says nothing abouut us. But the fact that something in Heaven would even be represented by "instruments", would mean that they cannot possibly be as "prohibited" or abhorred as you make them out to be. Once again, we never see adultery or idolatry used in such a positive light as repesenting Heavenly things.

This is the heart of why we have denominations. Men doing what pleases them, rather than based on what God said.

If man used God's word as the authority, and left out his own wants and desires, there would be no instrumental music in any worship service today.

God did not SAY not to use them, so to say not to use them is for YOU to go NOT by what He SAID; not us! The reason we have denominations, is as I've always said; because of man's own want and desires to be better than others. So he comes up with ridiculous issues to separate and argue over.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
Mman,

Answer this one question. How do we know what God wants in our worship? By what he said or by what he didn't say?

How do we know? By reading scripture. Not by reading one verse and trying to spin a whole doctrine off of it.

Jesus knew what was in the hearts of people. He said one day we will worship in spirit and in truth. Just look at what you're saying. Worship is acceptable only if it involves singing but not playing? It doesn't matter about the heart behind it? You have missed the whole point. What if we sing 20th century songs and not the ancient eastern songs sung by the church. God DIDN'T authorize the use of western scales in worship music. Does this mean our worship is not received? God didn't authorize the use of any electric apparatus either.

This is yet another example of how the CoC is denomination with severe misunderstandings of scripture. Sad.

You have rightly spoken when you answered we know what God wants by reading scripture.

Now answer this question, Are instruments used to please man or God?

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Eric B:
Come to think of it; all of what they sang were probably scriptures themselves. Since when did God authorize songs of human composition? And you can't even use that "expedient" line; because there were always plenty of psalms to sing!

What do the scriptures say? Eph 5:19, "psalms and hymns and spiritual songs."

Again this is stated in Col 3:16-17, "16Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.

Verse 17 says whatever we do in word or deed is to be done in the name of Jesus, or by his authority. His instructions for the Church are given in the New Testament. That is why the word is to dwell in us richly.

The authorization is to sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, not just psalms. This is where God authorize songs of human composition.

Now where did he authorize the use of mechanical instruments?