Why Have Denominations?

[DHK]

Originally posted by mman:

When Jesus said, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, was he kidding? If I accept this plain teaching, that a third grader can understand and would have to have help to misunderstand it, am I a legalist?

I think you bear false witness. Do you accept the plain teaching that a third grader can understand? I doubt it. Let's put it to the test. I home-school my children, and have for some time. I (for your sake) just asked my youngest to quote to me the first verses that come to her mind that she has memorized. What were they?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Nothing about baptism here. The verses she quoted teach that salvation is by faith in Christ--that whosover believes in Christ should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Even a third grader can understand that
DHK

 

[mman]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mman:

When Jesus said, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, was he kidding? If I accept this plain teaching, that a third grader can understand and would have to have help to misunderstand it, am I a legalist?

I think you bear false witness. Do you accept the plain teaching that a third grader can understand? I doubt it. Let's put it to the test. I home-school my children, and have for some time. I (for your sake) just asked my youngest to quote to me the first verses that come to her mind that she has memorized. What were they?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Nothing about baptism here. The verses she quoted teach that salvation is by faith in Christ--that whosover believes in Christ should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Even a third grader can understand that
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Ah, a concept I hope all would understand. The bible does not teach all there is to salvation in any one verse. There is nothing about repentance in those verses either. By your logic, repentance in non essential. What about confession. Those verses do not include confession. By your logic, that is non essential. Surely you don't think that repentance and confession are non essential.

Here is my point. Until we have all that God has said on any subject, we don't have the truth. I accept those verses you listed because I understand biblical faith.

It is my understanding that you cannot accept Mk 16:16 because you do not understand biblical faith. Mark 16:16 is in direct contradiction with what you believe so it must be explained away.

The verses your daughter quoted do not negate Mark 16:16 in any way, they compliment it.

John 3:16, what a wonderful verse. Only a few verses later, John 3:36, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (NAS) Does this negate John 3:16? Of course not, it compliments it. By reading both together we have a more complete understanding.

By the way, did your daughter understand Mark 16:16?

On a personal note, I commend you for home-schooling and teaching your children to memorize verses. I likewise home-school my children.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by mman:
]
Here is my point. Until we have all that God has said on any subject, we don't have the truth. I accept those verses you listed because I understand biblical faith.

By the standard that you have just set for yourself I doubt if you could ever be saved. Do you know ALL that God has said on soteriology--the subject of salvation. Have you memorized the Book of Romans--the greatest treatise on the them of salvation ever written. It clearly goes through all aspects of salvation. Are you sure you understand all there is about salvation there is to understand: all about the atonement, justification, propitiation, sanctification, adoption, new birth, regeneration, conversion, etc.
Are you claiming to have a full understanding of all these aspects of salvation before one can be saved? Are you then saved?
DHK

 

[mman]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mman:
]
Here is my point. Until we have all that God has said on any subject, we don't have the truth. I accept those verses you listed because I understand biblical faith.

By the standard that you have just set for yourself I doubt if you could ever be saved. Do you know ALL that God has said on soteriology--the subject of salvation. Have you memorized the Book of Romans--the greatest treatise on the them of salvation ever written. It clearly goes through all aspects of salvation. Are you sure you understand all there is about salvation there is to understand: all about the atonement, justification, propitiation, sanctification, adoption, new birth, regeneration, conversion, etc.
Are you claiming to have a full understanding of all these aspects of salvation before one can be saved? Are you then saved?
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]I am certain what it takes to become a christian. I am certain what it takes to have my sins washed away. I am certain what it takes to have the remission of my sins. It is impossible for God to lie and he has clearly revealed it.

I know every verse in the bible that tells us explicitly how we get INTO Christ. Why would someone ever think there is another way to get into Christ is beyond my understanding.

It's not hard. What has God said about salvation? It is not up to us to pick and choose which verses we want to follow.

There is a difference in what it takes to become a Christian and what it means to be a Christian.

What it takes to have remission of sins is easily seen in Acts 2. They heard one sermon and after they repented, the were baptized in order to obtain the remission of their sins.

Did I say one had to understand all truth before they could become a Christian? No.

I am fully convinced that one has to understand how to become a Christian before they can become a Christian. After becoming a Christian, they are babes in Christ that will grow and understand more as they study the word (I Pet 2:2).

I have faith. I believe with all my heart that Jesus is the Son of God, and He came to this earth and lived a sinless perfect life and was crucified, buried, and raised again before he returned to the Father. I believe that His blood was shed for many for the remission of sins. I have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine and had my sins washed away. Jesus, who cannot lie, said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be condemned." I believe what he said so I obeyed. I accept him as my Lord and Savior. Since you have stated many times that you believe faith alone saves, then even you think I am saved, right?

For one to ignore what Jesus said in Mark 16:16 because they cannot make it agree with their other beliefs is incomprehensible to me.

All you are doing is throwing a lot of chaff to try and cloud the issue.

The simple fact is that Jesus said He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

Either this statement is true or false.

Jesus either put believe, baptized and saved in the correct order or he didn't.

The conclusion of this passage is inescapable.

When taken in conjunction with the other passages that deal with this subject, it is clearly corroborated. Serious mental gymnastics would be required to attempt to explain away this clear teaching.

Again, a third grader can understand Mark 16:16 when they read it on their own. They would need "help" to misunderstand it.

 

[Eric B]

What do the scriptures say? Eph 5:19, "psalms and hymns and spiritual songs."

The authorization is to sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, not just psalms. This is where God authorize songs of human composition.

Now where did he authorize the use of mechanical instruments?

Who said "hymns and spiritual songs" were of human composition? They sang other scriptures which were not psalms as well. I used "psalms" as an example of an large supply of songs; not that it was the only type of song in the Bible.
So if one wanted to make an issue of this, they would have just as much to argue on as you on instruments. There were even points in Church history, IIRC, where songs of human composition were frowned upon in favor of scripture--some of the same that shunned instruments!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by mman:
I am certain what it takes to become a christian. I am certain what it takes to have my sins washed away. I am certain what it takes to have the remission of my sins. It is impossible for God to lie and he has clearly revealed it.

I know every verse in the bible that tells us explicitly how we get INTO Christ. Why would someone ever think there is another way to get into Christ is beyond my understanding.

It's not hard. What has God said about salvation? It is not up to us to pick and choose which verses we want to follow.

Then why do you pick and choose the verses that suit your own theology--Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38. You are very select in your choosing.

[QB

There is a difference in what it takes to become a Christian and what it means to be a Christian.

What it takes to have remission of sins is easily seen in Acts 2. They heard one sermon and after they repented, the were baptized in order to obtain the remission of their sins.[/QB]

You are picking and choosing the verses that you want to hilight. Of course, Acts 2:38 doesn't mean what you think it does. Salvation is by faith and faith alone, just as John 3:16 teaches--something a third grader can understand.

Did I say one had to understand all truth before they could become a Christian? No.

Indeed you did.

Here is my point. Until we have all that God has said on any subject, we don't have the truth. I accept those verses you listed because I understand biblical faith.

I am fully convinced that one has to understand how to become a Christian before they can become a Christian. After becoming a Christian, they are babes in Christ that will grow and understand more as they study the word (I Pet 2:2).

I have faith. I believe with all my heart that Jesus is the Son of God, and He came to this earth and lived a sinless perfect life and was crucified, buried, and raised again before he returned to the Father. I believe that His blood was shed for many for the remission of sins. I have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine and had my sins washed away. Jesus, who cannot lie, said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be condemned." I believe what he said so I obeyed. I accept him as my Lord and Savior. Since you have stated many times that you believe faith alone saves, then even you think I am saved, right?

I don't know. I can't say. If you say that baptism was necessary for your salvation, then no, I would not say that you were saved, for man is saved by faith alone, not by faith plus baptism.
"The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked; who can know it."
"The Lord knows them that are his."

For one to ignore what Jesus said in Mark 16:16 because they cannot make it agree with their other beliefs is incomprehensible to me.

All you are doing is throwing a lot of chaff to try and cloud the issue.

The simple fact is that Jesus said He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

Either this statement is true or false.

Jesus either put believe, baptized and saved in the correct order or he didn't.

The conclusion of this passage is inescapable.

When taken in conjunction with the other passages that deal with this subject, it is clearly corroborated. Serious mental gymnastics would be required to attempt to explain away this clear teaching.

Again, a third grader can understand Mark 16:16 when they read it on their own. They would need "help" to misunderstand it.

It is inconceivable that one would spin an entire doctrine around one verse in the Bible because his mind fails to reconcile it with the rest of Scripture.
DHK

 

[Frank]

Ed:
The new testament church simply did not use instruments. The practice was and is man made. The scriptures and history both attest to this truth. I do not know anything about paved parking lots and the first century church, but I do know they did not play instruments in worship.

 

[Frank]

2DHK:
Quote/
Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
--What were the angels actually given? Their voices??
First, let's not confuse Rev,. 14:2 with this passage. You seem to want to link the two. However, context indicates they are not be linked. Therefore, your question is not germain to this passage. This is a part of the vision John sees. The events in the chapter are signaled by a trumpets. There is no indcation of worship in view. This discussion is about Christians using instruments in worship to God, not the heralding of a major event.In this case, the events being heralded are Disasterous. What
do these pictures represent?

By the way, angels are divinely created beings, we are not.

What do angels hearalding Disasterous events have to do with Christians using instruments in worship? This passage is irrelevent to this issue.

The context seems to indicate these disasterous events were to take place during the time of the seven churches. How do you know the trumpets are literal?

[ June 09, 2005, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: Frank ]

 

[DHK]

I wasn't referring to the trumpets because they were used in worship, but rather to get you to admit that there are "musical" instruments in heaven, that is, literal instruments. When it came to the trumpets you did not try to allegorize or spritualize them away like you did with the harps. There is a contradiction here. So literal trumpets can be used as long as they are used to signify a warning. But if the harp is used for the purpose of worship, it can't be literal, just because it is used for worship. I suppose if a harp were used for another purpose then you would consider it literal. Quite illogical don't you think?
DHK

 

[mman]

Originally posted by DHK:
It is inconceivable that one would spin an entire doctrine around one verse in the Bible because his mind fails to reconcile it with the rest of Scripture.
DHK

That is my point exactly!!!! That is exactly what you are doing.

You cannot reconcile Acts 2:38 and Eph 2:8-9. You will not change your view on Eph 2, therefore Acts 2:38 doesn't mean what it says.

You cannot reconcile Mark 16:16 with Eph 2. You have yet to address Mark 16:16 but it can't mean what it says.

You cannot reconcile Acts 22:16 with Eph 2. You have to twist it from it's logical conclusion.

You cannot reconcile Gal 3:26-27 with Eph 2, which clearly states we are childern by faith because we have been baptized.

You cannot reconcile I Pet 3:21 with Eph 2, cause it says baptism saves us and you frequently say we are saved by faith alone.

Speaking of faith alone, you and I both know that there is only one reference to faith only and that is in James 2:24.

You say faith alone saves, yet Simon in Acts 8 believed and was baptized, and just after that he is described as not having is heart right with God, he was in the gall of bitterness and bond of iniquity and he was going to perish. A believer going to persish?

I expressed my faith in Jesus, yet you said that was not enough to save me, if I was obedient to Jesus instructions? Yet, if I'm diobedient to Jesus instruction, and only believe, I am fine. Do you see how ridiculous that is.

Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Mark 16:16

DHK said, "... then no, I would not say that you were saved, for man is saved by faith alone, not by faith plus baptism."

By your definition of faith, Noah would have drowned with the rest of the people and the walls of Jericho would still be standing.

Heb 11:7 By faith, Noah prepared an ark. Was any obedience required. If he did anything, any work, it was not by faith.

Heb 11:30 By faith, the walls of Jericho fell down... (Whose faith, the walls or the people's. Obviously, the people's faith)

Was obedience required? If they did any work, it was not by faith, according to your definitions.

Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Now if faith=belief only. These verses confict. (no ark and the walls still standing)

But if faith=belief plus obedience, they are in complete harmony. (ark prepared by faith, walls of Jericho fell by faith, and we are children of God by faith because we have been baptized).

Col 2:12 tells us how we were raised. Raised from what? The watery grave of baptism. How? Through FAITH. Who worked? God. What did he do? Washed away our sins (Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38). He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Mk 16:16. See how this all fits together.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Eric B:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> What do the scriptures say? Eph 5:19, "psalms and hymns and spiritual songs."

The authorization is to sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, not just psalms. This is where God authorize songs of human composition.

Now where did he authorize the use of mechanical instruments?

Who said "hymns and spiritual songs" were of human composition? They sang other scriptures which were not psalms as well. I used "psalms" as an example of an large supply of songs; not that it was the only type of song in the Bible.
So if one wanted to make an issue of this, they would have just as much to argue on as you on instruments. There were even points in Church history, IIRC, where songs of human composition were frowned upon in favor of scripture--some of the same that shunned instruments! </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you for making my point for me. "Who said 'hymns and spiritual songs' were of human composition?".

Certainly not God. One of the things we are told to sing is "spiritual songs". Since that is not defined, it is left for man to discern.

Can we sing spiritual songs and worldy songs, because they are not prohibited? No. We are to sing spiritual songs. By your logic, any type of song is fine, because he didn't say not to sing wordly songs, so they are not prohibited.

Singing is the authorized music. We don't add to that. Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs are the authorized types of songs. We don't add to that.

Good Point. Thanks.

 

[Eric B]

You did not even address the point, but rather took it to be your own point. Who said hymns and spiritual songs were not referring to the text of scripture besides psalms, and not written later by Church members; that's what I meant.
And then, we have "that is not defined, it is left for man to discern". It seems only you determine what can be discerned by us if not defined. On one hand, you make an argument that whatever is not MENTIONED or COMMANDED is FORBIDDEN. But in issues of your choosing, if it is not mentioned or commanded, you can decide.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by mman:
That is my point exactly!!!! That is exactly what you are doing.

You cannot reconcile Acts 2:38 and Eph 2:8-9. You will not change your view on Eph 2, therefore Acts 2:38 doesn't mean what it says.

You cannot reconcile Mark 16:16 with Eph 2. You have yet to address Mark 16:16 but it can't mean what it says.

You cannot reconcile Acts 22:16 with Eph 2. You have to twist it from it's logical conclusion.

Actually I can. But you are building your doctrine around the 2 or 3 verses that you have mentioned against:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 13:38-39 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Acts 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 17:11-12 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Acts 20:20-21 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 3:27-28 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 5:8-9 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

I am sorry, I could only mannage the first five chapters of Romans after going through the Book of Acts. This post would be way too long if I continued to the end of the New Testament. I think the weight of evidence far outweighs anything that you can give.
Salvation is by faith--faith in the work of Christ.
DHK

 

[Frank]

Dhk:
I said no such thing. I never said the trumpets were literal or figurative. The bible says they were used as a warning of an impending event. cf. Joshua 6. Why do you insist on taking the leap they are literal and to be used for worship? This is an irrational conclusion based on the totality of the evidence.
Angels are spirit beings and are not subject to the reward of eternal life. Why would they need a literal trumpet to sound? It makes little sense to me. However, if they use a literal one to warn, so be it. It has nothing to do with the souls of Christians who are subject to the reward of eternal life. It has absolutely nothing to do with instruments in worship. See context.
I am sure that there is NO EVIDENCE for the use of instruments of worship in heaven or earth. Again, this is, and was the issue being addressed. Col. 3:16, Eph. 5:19, I Cor. 14:15, Romans 15:9, Hebrews 2;12, Acts 16:25,26, Mat. 26:30.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:
Dhk:
I said no such thing. I never said the trumpets were literal or figurative. The bible says they were used as a warning of an impending event. cf. Joshua 6. Why do you insist on taking the leap they are literal and to be used for worship? This is an irrational conclusion based on the totality of the evidence.

No leap of faith required here Frank, only common sense. A figurative trumpet can't sound a warning sound. I have never heard anything so ridiculous. In order to make a sound the trumpet must be literal. That only makes sense, doesn't it?

Angels are spirit beings and are not subject to the reward of eternal life.

Are you denying that they will live for the rest of eternity?

Why would they need a literal trumpet to sound? It makes little sense to me. However, if they use a literal one to warn, so be it. It has nothing to do with the souls of Christians who are subject to the reward of eternal life. It has absolutely nothing to do with instruments in worship. See context.

It has much to do with it. If the trumpets are literal, then there is no reason not to believe that the harps being used in worship in heaven are literal. And that is where your bias comes in. Your preconceived ideas will not allow you to believe that there are harps used in toe worship of the King of Kings in heaven. So you allegorize these passages away, and yet you admit that the trumpets could be literal. Well if we take that approach to Scripture, we might as well allegorize the Resurrection like the J.W.'s do!

I am sure that there is NO EVIDENCE for the use of instruments of worship in heaven or earth. Again, this is, and was the issue being addressed. Col. 3:16, Eph. 5:19, I Cor. 14:15, Romans 15:9, Hebrews 2;12, Acts 16:25,26, Mat. 26:30.

And with just as much authority I can say I am sure that there is EVIDENCE for the use of Instruments in heaven and in earth. In fact, I believe I have far more evidence than you do.
First of all did you consdier the Old Testament, when you said "on the earth?" Are you seriously going to take the position that there was no instruments used in worship in the Old Testament? I'll await your answer before answering that one.
Is there now worship with instruments on earth? Yes, of course there is.
Will there be instruments in Heaven? The Bible clearly says there will be. You will be denying the Bible if say there won't be.

Thus there were instruments in worship used in the Bible in the Old Testament, and there will be instruments used in Heaven in the future. We can see that from the Book of Revelation. We need only to look at Scripture which deals with the here and now, unless you actually dispute the past and future, which seems to be a very unreasonable position to take.
DHK

 

[mman]

Originally posted by DHK:
Actually I can. But you are building your doctrine around the 2 or 3 verses that you have mentioned against:

Against? Are you are admitting that Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, I Pet 3:21, Gal 3:27, Rom 6:3-4, Col 2:12 and other verses dealing with baptism are "AGAINST" what you believe? Scripture never contradicts itself or is ever "against" itself. I'll show you why none of these verses are "against" baptism.

You say you can reconcile these verses, but I've never read where you've attempted to do so. I think I know why, but I may be wrong?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I think you would agree that the key word is believeth (pisteuo). The Greek noun for believe is pistis; the corresponding verb is pisteuo.

This word does not merely mean mental assent. Jesus did not “trust” (pisteuo) himself to the Jews of Jerusalem (Jn. 2:24).

More on this with some of the following verses.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus also said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he believeth not shall be condemned".

Looking at these two verses, what does it take to NOT be condemned and what does it take to be condemned? Are these two verses in contradiction or in harmony? I say they are in harmony.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

“He who believes [pisteuo] on the Son has eternal life; but he who obeys not [apeitho] the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him” Jn. 3:36 - ASV).

The King James translators did not favor us by rendering two different Greek terms by the same English word. An important distinction was obscured.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

What did God do for the believers who received him? He gave them power to become the sons of God. He didn't say they were the sons of God.

A very similar verse is in Gal 3:26-27, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.''

We are sons of God through faith because we have been baptized INTO Christ.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus is the way. Jesus said we will be judged by the words he spoke (John 12:48). Did Jesus mean some of the words, most of his words, or all of his word? Did Jesus say, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."? Will we be judged by those words?

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

In Luke 6:46 "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say? How could anyone be called a follower who willfully rejected what Jesus said? He said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." How could anyone willfully reject that and be called a follower?

John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

How did we die with Christ? In baptism. When did the new life begin? When we were raised. Raised from what? The waters of Baptism.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Jesus is the "in any other", so salvation is in Christ. II Tim 2:10 also states that. How do we get INTO Christ? You can search your bible from cover to cover and you will only find that we are baptized INTO Christ. (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:27)

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

What happened just before verse 37?

Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"

So belief was a requirement for baptism. Sounds just like what Jesus said in Mark 16:16, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. No wonder he went on his way rejoicing.

For someone to deny that preaching Jesus included water baptism would be an attempt deny the obvious.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Just like on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2. Those believers were told to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for (eis) the remission of sins.

Acts 13:38-39 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Following Peter’s sermon on Pentecost, certain devout Jews inquired: “What shall we do?” The apostle commanded them to repent of their sins and be baptized for the remission thereof (2:38). Those who “received his word were baptized” (v. 41).
Luke then says: “And all that believed were together” (v. 44). “Believed” sums up the obedience described previously.
How had those believers obtained the remission of sins? They were baptized for (eis) the remission of sins.
A careful study of the use of the verb Pisteuo in the book of Acts will reveal that in many instances “believing” is a summary term that embraces all of the conditions inherent in the divine plan of salvation, including the command to be immersed in water.

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Yes, the Jews and Gentiles are saved in the same manner. As we just noted, both were baptized for the remission of sins.

Acts 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Were they saved at this point? No, they had not heard the word of the Lord yet.

Now, notice verse 34, Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

Were they believers now? Yes. What happened between verses 31 and 34?

Acts 16:32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

Again, speaking the word of the Lord, includes instructions for water baptism. They were baptized in the middle of the night. If for no other reason than that, I would think they thought baptism was important.

The word believed is a summary term that embraces all of the conditions inherent in the divine plan of salvation, including the command to be immersed in water.

To be continued:

 

[mman]

Part 2.

Acts 17:11-12 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

In Act 2:44 those "who believed " where the same one who had repented and been baptized for the remission of their sins.

Acts 20:20-21 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Belief and repentance. The believers in Acts 2 were told to repent and be baptized.

The very next chapter, in Acts 3:19, Peter said, " Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,"

Had Peter changed his message so quickly or was it the same message restated. Lets compare Acts 2:38 and Acts 3:19

Acts 2:38 = Acts 3:19
Repent = Repent
Be Baptized = Be Converted
For the remission of sins = That your sins may be blotted out

Notice Baptism and conversions are synonymous.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The Gospel, the death burial and resurrection as summed up in I Cor 15. God will take vengeance on those who do not obey the Gospel (II Thess 1:8). How do we obey the death, burial and resurrection? Rom 6:3-4 says we do that in our baptism so we obey a form of that (Rom 6:17).

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

We do live by faith, no question. Faith comes from God's word (Rom 10:17). Without the type of faith found in Heb 11, we cannot be pleasing to God (Heb 11:6). By faith, Noah prepared an ark and by faith the wall of Jericho fell. Was obedience required? Yes, otherwise Noah would have drowned and the wall may still be standing. Noah did all that God commanded him (Gen 6:22) and the bible calls that faith (Heb 11:7).

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Romans 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The righteousness of God which is by faith upon all that believe, is it for those who are in Christ or outside of Christ? Verse 34 says that redemption is in Christ. There is only one way to get into Christ and Paul deals with that in Chapter 6, we are baptized into Christ Jesus.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Jesus' blood was shed for the remission of sins (Matt 26:28). How do we come in contact with that blood? Where was Jesus' blood shed? At his death. Rom 6:4 states that "we were buried with Him through baptism into death". That is where we contact the blood and have remission of sins. That is exactly what Peter said in Acts 2:38, that we are baptized for the remission of sins.

See how simple this is. It all fits together perfectly.

Romans 3:27-28 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Of course keeping the old law could not provide justification. That is why it had to be removed. He is contrasting the old law to the new law. Yes, we are justified by the new law, not by keeping the old law.

Romans 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I would hate to know that I had to earn any part of my salvation. Thank God that I don't!

Abraham's faith that is counted for righteousness, was it a living faith or a dead faith (belief only)?

Jas 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Baptism is not a work, as many claim, but an act of faith. This is clearly seen in Col 2:12 "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."

Baptism is through faith and the only one working is God. Gal 3:26-27 also clearly tie baptism to faith.

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Of course Rom 6 shows how we can be united with Christ in his death and resurrection, and that is in baptism.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Justification by faith. Nothing is made more plain than that. Again, we must have faith as shown in Heb 11 to be pleasing to God (Heb 11:6). If someone falsely says the faith here means belief only, James, as we have already shown, says that we are not justified by a dead faith (belief only as seen in James 2:24), but by a faith that is alive and active.

Romans 5:8-9 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Justified by his blood. We have already seen how we come in contact with the blood that was shed at his death (Rom 6).

Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Through Jesus we have receive atonement. No doubt about that. Jesus even told us how, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved".

I am sorry, I could only mannage the first five chapters of Romans after going through the Book of Acts. This post would be way too long if I continued to the end of the New Testament. I think the weight of evidence far outweighs anything that you can give.
Salvation is by faith--faith in the work of Christ.
DHK

All your "evidence" is in support of everything I believe. You cannot come up with any scripture that is going to be contrary to Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, the examples in Acts 8, Acts 22:16, Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:26-27, Col 2:12, I Pet 3:21 and others I have listed above.

Truth lies in parallel, never contradicting itself. None of the scriptures you have listed negate or supersede any of the passages dealing with baptism, they only give us further understanding. To understand the purpose of baptism, we need to look at the passages dealing directly with baptism, not with the passages that don't mention it. However, when we do look at those that don't mention it, they will never be in contradiction with those that do mention it.

Now, back to Mark 16:16, did Jesus really mean what he said that "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."?

 

[DHK]

Like I said, You have spun a doctrine around two or three verses. You have just demonstrated that for all to see. You have inserted baptism where there is no mention of baptism. Yet you make baptism the foundation of your salvation when the Scripture clearly teaches that it is faith in the blood of Christ. But on a whim you habe thrown that doctrine right out of the window to allow for a damnable doctrine of baptismal regeneration.

Here is a good example:
DHK-- quote:Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

mman--Through Jesus we have receive atonement. No doubt about that. Jesus even told us how, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved".

The verse says nothing about baptism. It speaks of the atonement. But you have forced baptism into the verse anyway to support your preconceived ideas. This is what you have done with every Scriputre I posted. Here is what Peter said about such:

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
DHK

 

[mman]

Originally posted by DHK:
Like I said, You have spun a doctrine around two or three verses. You have just demonstrated that for all to see. You have inserted baptism where there is no mention of baptism. Yet you make baptism the foundation of your salvation when the Scripture clearly teaches that it is faith in the blood of Christ. But on a whim you habe thrown that doctrine right out of the window to allow for a damnable doctrine of baptismal regeneration.

Here is a good example:
DHK-- quote:Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

mman--Through Jesus we have receive atonement. No doubt about that. Jesus even told us how, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved".

The verse says nothing about baptism. It speaks of the atonement. But you have forced baptism into the verse anyway to support your preconceived ideas. This is what you have done with every Scriputre I posted. Here is what Peter said about such:

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
DHK

Rom 5:11 doesn't talk about faith, repentance, confession or baptism. Are you implying none of these are required for atonement? Surely not. If you try to include faith in our atonement, are you going to accuse yourself of twisting the scriptures. All I stated was how. This verse doesn't tell us how, now does it?

Ok, what is hard to understand about, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." -Gal 3:26-27.

I do not have to twist that. Anyone that doesn't believe this would be the one that have to twist it and try and explain it away.

The simple truth is that I don't have to twist the scripture.

Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, The examples in Acts 8, The whole story in Acts 16, Acts 22:16, Rom 6, Gal 3:26-27, Col 2:12, and I Pet 3:21 need no explaination. They mean what they say. Their meaning is obvious. All I desire is for people to read it for themselves and accept the obvious meaning of each scripture.

Again, you have yet to deal with any of the baptism scriptures. You say you can reconcile it with the verses you quoted, but you won't. I have time and time again.

I certainly agree that some twist what Paul wrote. So let's go to some simple plain teaching of our Lord.

Mark 16:16 - "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.". Was Jesus wrong? Is this too hard to understand?

You accuse me of twisting scripture, but they are so plain, I do not have to twist. They mean what they say. Any explaining by others is to try and explain away their meaning.

Again, scripture does not contradict itself. One scripture does not cancel another one out. Every scripture that I listed is in harmony with the ones you listed.

What do you mean by, "baptismal regeneration"? That means different things to different people. For some, the expression is merely a bit of inflammatory rhetoric designed to intimidate those who affirm that baptism is a part of the regeneration process.

If you are claiming that I am teaching there is power in the water to wash away my sins, then that is COMPLETELY false. I have never, nor will I ever say there is any power in the water. It can't wash away sins or cure leprosy, even though God has used it to do both.

Does baptism play a part of our salvation? Notice the order in every case.

Baptism - Salvation (Mk. 16:16)
Born of Water - Enter Kingdom (Jn. 3:5)
Baptism -Remission of Sins (Acts 2:38)
Baptism - Washing away sins (Acts 22:16)
Baptism - Death of Christ (Rom. 6:3)
Washed - Justified (1 Cor. 6:11)
Baptism - Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13)
Baptism - Clothed With Christ (Gal. 3:27)
Washing of Water - Cleansed (Eph. 5:26)
Baptism - Working of God (Col. 2:12)
Washing of Regeneration - Saved (Tit. 3:5)
Baptism - Saved (1 Pet. 3:21)

 

[Claudia_T]

The act of Baptism itself doesnt save you but being humble enough to actually OBEY what God tells you to do, does.

Baptism ... being immersed in the water, symbolizes us as sinners being BURIED with Christ and being raised again to a new life as a new creature... one who now lives to glorify God, one who has given up his or her old ways of sin. If you do not have this change take place in you, then your baptism is useless.

And Jesus said:
Lk:6:46: And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?


Matthew 28:
18: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Romans Chapter 6:
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.


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Claudia Thompson

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