<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by qwerty:
Calvinism is basically an interpretational doctrine. You say that it is based on scripture. I say it is based on interpretation of scripture. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tell me ... is there any doctrine which is not based upon an interpretation of Scripture? Reformed theology is derived from the exegesis of what God says in his Holy Word.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
As someone in these forums stated, "Immaculate Perception". The scripture says several places "ALL". You qualify this. Fine. But your qualification is based on interpretation, which we all do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Matthew 2:3 (ESV)
When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him;
Was every man, woman and child in Jerusalem troubled along with Herod? If not, why not?
Matthew 3:5-6 (ESV)
Then Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan were going out to him, [6] and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
Was every man, woman and child in Jerusalem and Judea all the region about the Jordan baptized? If not, why not?
Matthew 4:24 (ESV)
So his fame spread throughout all Syria, and they brought him all the sick, those afflicted with various diseases and pains, those oppressed by demons, epileptics, and paralytics, and he healed them.
Was every single sick and afflicted person brought to Christ for healing? If not, why not?
Matthew 10:22 (ESV)
and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Did every man, woman and child in the world hate the apostles? If not, why not?
Romans 5:18 (ESV)
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Since all men are condemned, are all men now saved? If not, why not?
There are 879 verses in the ESV NT with at least one occurrence of the word
all. I hope it is plain that all does not always mean universal all.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>There are some who don't believe that God created people just to cast them into hell. You might disagree. Fine. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And so does Scripture.
Romans 9:11-18 (ESV)
though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call— [12] she was told, "The older will serve the younger." [13] As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
[14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! [15] For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [16] So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. [17] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." [18] So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
John 17:12 (ESV)
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Romans 9:21-24 (ESV)
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? [22] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— [24] even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The sticking point for me is that I have never seen a Calvinist that says the Holy Spirit gave the Calvinist doctrine. The Calvinist doctrine has a lot of logic to it, and many pages devoted to it, and many adherents. But when does one of the Calvinists, an originator (apostle) of the Calvinist doctrine step up and say, "The Holy Spirit has revealed these truths to me (the Calvinist doctrine)." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So, are you saying that either a theologian must be inspired as were the biblical authors, or that the biblcal authors did not affirm Divine Sovereignty? Did the Holy Spirit anywhere say ""The Holy Spirit has revealed these truths to me (the Arminian doctrine)." John and Paul overflow with Calvinism (i.e., biblical soteriology), and great men of the Spirit (Calvin, Whitefield, Edwards, Lloyd-Jones, Barnhouse, J.M. Boice, et. al.) have written of the doctrine of the Holy SPirit. Your argument holds no water.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Many people have figured out many doctrines without the help of God the Holy Spirit. I guess they would say that they were given good minds by God, and they don't need His help to determine what scripture means. I mean, it must be really easy after spending years studying Greek and Hebrew, and when you know what the words mean, and how the cultures were, there is no need for God to communicate. Or is there?
Is the Holy Spirit still needed by the church today to help us understand the written Word of God? Did Calvin or the early adherents to Calvinism ever speak of how the Holy Spirit inspired them with this doctrine? If so, I would like to know. If not, is it wrong to question those who figure out a doctrine but give God no credit for being the Source? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is ad hominem and non sequiter as it is answered above. Read Calvin, Edwards and Lloyd-Jones, and them tell me these men had no regard for the Spirit.
[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]
