Why [I believe] Premillennialism is false

[Saint of Circumstance]

Yes.

glad we agree... ONE Coming of Christ as a thief taught in scripture.

No. The events of AD 70 are not a coming of Christ, and they did not come 'as a thief.'

Then what 1st century event do you say WAS the Coming of Christ as a thief to the 1st century Church at Sardis as Christ Promised in Revelation 3:3 ?

 

[Saint of Circumstance]

Were you with her "in the air" or only in New York City?

Whats your point?

You seem to claim the phrase "Together with them" implies simultaneous event of the living and the dead rising.
I've provided a sober rebuttal to that claim, showing no such impication can be honestly derrived from that text.

In my example New York City is the destination where I will be together with her sometime AFTER she gets there, in the biblical example, the air is the destination that the living will be together with the dead sometime AFTER the Dead are raised.

Neither example requires the trip to that destination happen at the same time, and in the Biblical example it REQUIRES that it NOT take place at the same time. The Dead are raisd FIRST, then, sometime after that, the living will be caught up.

So again, whats your point?

 

[Saint of Circumstance]

When Jesus returns, History as we know it comes to an end

Rather, scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33),

 

[Saint of Circumstance]

Were the seven churches of Revelation 2 - 3 literal?
If so why not "the one thousand years"?

“Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments; (Deuteronomy 7:9)

Literal?

Thats 40,000 - 120,000, years dependng on your interpretation of a generation.

40,000-120,000 years of Human generational procreation on Planet earth.
Thats what you believe?

Or do you believe 1000 generations is a metaphore?

 

[HankD]

“Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments; (Deuteronomy 7:9)

Literal?

Thats 40,000 - 120,000, years dependng on your interpretation of a generation.

40,000-120,000 years of Human generational procreation on Planet earth.
Thats what you believe?

Or do you believe 1000 generations is a metaphore?

No I don't believe its a metaphor.

HankD

 

[Saint of Circumstance]

No I don't believe its a metaphor.

HankD

So, 40,000-120,000 years of Human Generational procreation on planet earth is what you believe is prophesied to occour then.

Where on that spectrum does your belief fall?

If we accept the low end, and we accept that 6000 years have past, then we have another 34,000 years left of human beings beiong born, growing up, procreating the next generation, growing old and Dying, yes?

I mean, if we are to take that scripture "literally", right?

 

[TCassidy]

Whats your point?

My point is, which you well know, that the bible says "together with them IN THE AIR."

 

[HankD]

So, 40,000-120,000 years of Human Generational procreation on planet earth is what you believe is prophesied to occour then.

Where on that spectrum does your belief fall?

If we accept the low end, and we accept that 6000 years have past, then we have another 34,000 years left of human beings beiong born, growing up, procreating the next generation, growing old and Dying, yes?

I mean, if we are to take that scripture "literally", right?

Right.

However you are new to the BB, So -

if you go through the archives you will find that I have always said that our differences are all accountable in how we categorize words and phrases - literal or metaphorical.

I do a mix and there is a chance that this one is a metaphor (as well as the 1000 years - but that one i put in the literal list).

But 34,000 years or a million years - its all up to God - we do (IMO) have an infinite, boundless, never-ending universe - so no chance of overpopulation

HankD

 

[Saint of Circumstance]

My point is, which you well know, that the bible says "together with them IN THE AIR."

Fine.. I have no argument with that.
But again, scripture teaches that living and the dead DO NOT make the trip at the same time, only that the living end up there, in the "air", "together with them" sometime AFTER the Dead are raised FIRST.
I'm sure you can agree. You'd have to. Scripture plainly teaches it.

But lets explore your answer.
What do you say "Air" means in this passage?

The Sky where Birds fly, clouds float and higher?
The breathable air around us at ground level?
The Spiritual Realm?

Some other definition?

 

[Saint of Circumstance]

Right.

However you are new to the BB, So -

if you go through the archives you will find that I have always said that our differences are all accountable in how we categorize words and phrases - literal or metaphorical.

Thanks for the heads up on that... I'l do my best to paruse the archives as time allows.

I do a mix

We all do a mix... no Christian is 100% literal, and no Christian is 100% metaphorical in their interpretative style.

and there is a chance that this one is a metaphor (as well as the 1000 years - but that one i put in the literal list).

fair enough... so what about my earlier query?

Do you believe Jesus LITERALLY promised his thiefs coming would overtake the LITERAL first century people at the LITERAL first century Church at sardis who were not watching for it? (Revelation 3:3)

If so, do you believe Jesus LITERALLY followed through on that promise?

I do. I definitely put that in the "Literal" list.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

glad we agree... ONE Coming of Christ as a thief taught in scripture.

Then what 1st century event do you say WAS the Coming of Christ as a thief to the 1st century Church at Sardis as Christ Promised in Revelation 3:3 ?

Let me first of all put the question back to you. Given that we are agreed that there is only one Coming of Christ as a thief taught in the Scripture, how did Christ come upon Sardis as a thief in AD 70? It is a pretty long way from Jerusalem.

Rev. 3:3 needs to be taken together with Mark 13:32-37. No one knows when Christ will come. All Christians of all ages need to watch and pray, and 1st Century Sardis was no exception.

 

[David Kent]

Whats your point?

You seem to claim the phrase "Together with them" implies simultaneous event of the living and the dead rising.
I've provided a sober rebuttal to that claim, showing no such impication can be honestly derrived from that text.

In my example New York City is the destination where I will be together with her sometime AFTER she gets there, in the biblical example, the air is the destination that the living will be together with the dead sometime AFTER the Dead are raised.

Neither example requires the trip to that destination happen at the same time, and in the Biblical example it REQUIRES that it NOT take place at the same time. The Dead are raisd FIRST, then, sometime after that, the living will be caught up.

So again, whats your point?

Scripture doesn't say after, but not before, nothing to say that both can't happen together, as far as I can see.

 

[HankD]

Thanks for the heads up on that... I'l do my best to paruse the archives as time allows.



We all do a mix... no Christian is 100% literal, and no Christian is 100% metaphorical in their interpretative style.



fair enough... so what about my earlier query?

Do you believe Jesus LITERALLY promised his thiefs coming would overtake the LITERAL first century people at the LITERAL first century Church at sardis who were not watching for it? (Revelation 3:3)

If so, do you believe Jesus LITERALLY followed through on that promise?

I do. I definitely put that in the "Literal" list.

Yes partially perhaps (big perhaps) however I definitely make room in my thinking for another "far -reaching" fulfillment.

I have no problem admitting that many passages in the NT give the impression of a second coming within the human author's own life time.
He has delayed His coming is my conclusion.

HankD

 

[Saint of Circumstance]

Let me first of all put the question back to you.
Given that we are agreed that there is only one Coming of Christ as a thief taught in the Scripture, how did Christ come upon Sardis as a thief in AD 70? It is a pretty long way from Jerusalem.

The persecutions that those churches faced were led by the Jews (as we see with the Thessalonican persecution at Acts 17:5-8). When these evil men were destroyed in Jerusalem at AD 70, the churches gained relief. The Jews had been urging the Romans to persecute the Christians. The destruction of Jerusalem eliminated nearly all the non-Christ-following Jews of the entire Roman Empire, and Christianity emerged victorious.

The faithful and the unfaithful of the Asia Minor churches were to each receive something at His coming to them, each according to their works:

CHRIST'S JUDGMENT OF THE ASIA MINOR CHURCHES ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS:

(*) I know your works...repent else I will come unto thee quickly and remove thy candlestick...but...To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life (Rev 2:5,7)

(*) I know your works...Repent or else I will come unto thee quickly and fight against them with the sword of my mouth....To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna (Rev 2:16-17)

(*) I know your works... And I gave her [the Prophetess of Thyatira] space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts, and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira...that which ye have already hold fast till I come...I will give him the morning star. (Rev 2:21-25,28)

Note that Jesus explicitly says that the Thyatria Prophetess movement chose not to repent, and that he was coming and would kill her and her "children." But to the rest at Thyatria (the faithful), they were to hold fast and had no additional burden placed upon them, for Jesus had rewards to give them as stated in Rev 2:26-28. We know that Christ came to them, for he came and killed the Prophetess and rewarded the faithful as he said.

(*) I know your works...Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Rev 3:3-5)

(*) I know your works...I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God (Rev 3:11-12).

(*) I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth....I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. (Rev 3:15,20-21)

As everyone can plainly see, Revelation 2-3 is Christ's judgment, the judgment at Christ's coming. The punishments and/or rewards received were based "according to their works," as was predicted in the gospels and epistles:

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-8
thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, Who will render to every man according to his works: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath

This is all first-century stuff here. No "Church Age," no "1948," no "21st century computer chips" -- the glorified Jesus knew of none of those modern speculative doctrines, and that makes them impossible doctrines, ones not found anywhere in scripture. Had any of those things been biblical doctrines, then Jesus would not be speaking to first-century churches about His second coming in Revelation 2-3 as we see Him doing.

All Christians of all ages need to watch and pray, and 1st Century Sardis was no exception.

How can that be true?
There is an explicit warning of what would happen to those who did not watch... was Jesus speaking empty threats?
How can every generation watch for an event ordained to take place only once in History?
What happened to the Christian from say, 1860, who "Watched for His coming" that was different from his christain neighbor who did not watch for it? Did they not Both Die in Christ?

 

[Saint of Circumstance]

Scripture doesn't say after, but not before, nothing to say that both can't happen together, as far as I can see.

The Dead in Christ rise FIRST, not at the same time as the living:

1 Thessalonians 4:16
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

[Saint of Circumstance]

He has delayed His coming is my conclusion.

HankD

Then Is your clonclusion that the writer of Hebrews was mistaken, or that He lied?:

“For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not delay. (Hebrews 10:37)

And what does Jesus call those who say the He has delayed His coming?:

48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’....

Lastly, has not His coming been FIXED in time, on a day already appointed?

31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” (Acts 17:31)

 

[TCassidy]

What do you say "Air" means in this passage?

αερα means "air." "In the air" means "In the air." Like a bird flies "in the air." An airplane flies "in the air." Pretty clear. You know, the stuff we breath. No need to "spiritualize" it away. Just accept it as the inspired word of God.

 

[Saint of Circumstance]

I have no problem admitting that many passages in the NT give the impression of a second coming within the human author's own life time.

You shouldn't have a problem with that.
Jesus instructed His apostles to be prepared and watch for it... Clearly Jesus had the impression that His 2nd coming would take place in their lifetime.

Throughout scripture, Jesus plainly applies his second coming to first-century people, and Jesus could not err.

 

[TCassidy]

The Dead in Christ rise FIRST, not at the same time as the living:

1 Thessalonians 4:16
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever."

επειτα, "then" - an adverb with no temporal connotation other than "after" or as it is sometimes translated "furthermore."

"Together with them" — all together: the raised dead, and changed living, forming one joint body.

 

[Saint of Circumstance]

αερα mean "air." "In the air" means "In the air." Like a bird flies "in the air." An airplane flies "in the air." Pretty clear. You know, the stuff we breath. No need to "spiritualize" it away. Just accept it as the inspired word of God.

So Satan is the Prince of the Power of the Atmosphere?:

Eph 2:2: "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience."