Why I left the RCC

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Ps104_33:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Did you ever go to Mass in those 23 years? Did you stay awake? Did you pay attention?

Sometimes I wonder about you guys. In all my years I never , ever, ever, ever, met a Roman Catholic ( and believe me I know quite a few up here in Catholicville) I never met a Catholic who enjoyed going to mass. They mainly do it out of duty.</font>[/QUOTE]Oh look! You just met one! Nice to mee you; my name is Grant.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Ps104_33:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Did you ever go to Mass in those 23 years? Did you stay awake? Did you pay attention?

Sometimes I wonder about you guys. In all my years I never , ever, ever, ever, met a Roman Catholic ( and believe me I know quite a few up here in Catholicville) I never met a Catholic who enjoyed going to mass. They mainly do it out of duty.</font>[/QUOTE]Pslam, who were all those people in Church with me as I attended Mass daily since age six?

Catholic Churches everywhere offer Mass each and every day and faithful Catholics are present.

Can you name even one Baptist church in your area that you can attend a service on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday or Saturday? Now why is this?

 

[HankD]

Can you name even one Baptist church in your area that you can attend a service on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday or Saturday? Now why is this?

Well, for one thing we don't need to go to the Church to maintain our salvation, or receive the sacrament of absolution to stay in the state of sanctifying grace.

HankD

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Can you name even one Baptist church in your area that you can attend a service on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday or Saturday? Now why is this?

Well, for one thing we don't need to go to the Church to maintain our salvation, or receive the sacrament of absolution to stay in the state of sanctifying grace.

HankD</font>[/QUOTE]I go to Church for many reasons. I go to hear the Gospel preached and expounded upon, finding new ways to apply the Gospel message to my daily life. I go to hear the forgiveness of Christ preached into my ears. I go to remembet my Baptismal promises. I enjoy finding common messages preached within the OT and NT, and how it all comes together. I enjoy singing praises and praying with my fellow Catholic Christians. I enjoy being in the physical presense of Christ Jesus, my Savior. I enjoy living out my faith. I enjoy Mass.

Is it necessary for my salvation? That's kind of a loaded statement. Christ is present in the Mass. To know he is there and to not go (for selfish reasons), it's like rejecting Christ. "I don't really need you, so I'll just not go." That's not faith; that's a lack of faith. Since I have a strong faith, I really enjoy going to Mass. So it's just a natural extension of my living faith.

I don't go out of duty; I got out of love for my God.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by HankD:
Well, for one thing we don't need to go to the Church to maintain our salvation, or receive the sacrament of absolution to stay in the state of sanctifying grace.

HankD[/QB]

Oh, Hank, why do you twist things so?

Psalm said he knows of no Catholic who wanted to go to Mass.

When I say that I go daily because I want to, as well as others that are there with me, you presume to imply that it is because I must do so to maintain my salvation.

As a former Catholic, can you say that Catholics must go to Mass daily to maintain our salvation?

No, of course not. But you feel free to imply it though. Why is that?

 

[HankD]

As a former Catholic, can you say that Catholics must go to Mass daily to maintain our salvation?

No, of course not. But you feel free to imply it though. Why is that?

The answer is yes. If you commit a mortal sin and don't go to confession and die that day you go to hell. So if you have adulterous thoughts daily you must go to a church, find a priest and make a confession daily if you want to daily maintain the state of sanctifying grace.

Why do Catholics imply that Baptists have an inferior spirituality to Catholics because they don't go to church daily?

Many Baptist do spiritual things daily.
What is the magic of a church environment that makes your spirituality superior to ours because you go to a church to do those things and we do them at home or in a car or wherever?

HankD

[ September 14, 2002, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by HankD:
The answer is yes. If you commit a mortal sin and don't go to confession and die that day you go to hell. So if you have adulterous thoughts daily you must go to a church, find a priest and make a confession daily if you want to daily maintain the state of sanctifying grace.

Perhaps you need to do more research into what qualifies as a mortal sin. But that's for a whole other discussion. Most adulterous thoughts are spur of the moment, and often we are having them before we are fully aware or can correct our thoughts. A mortal sin would be, for instance, having said thoughts, realizing what you're doing, but pursuing, perhaps with lewd comments, or physical actions. You become aware of the temptation and openly pursue it, having full knowledge that what you're doing is contrary to God's will. I know that since I've been getting closer to Christ, these types of events seldom happen with me anymore. I mess up now and again, and I'm called to Confession for these things. However, I hardly commit a "mortal" sin on a regular basis. Venial sins, all the time, for we have sinful natures.

Originally posted by HankD:
Why do Catholics imply that Baptists have an inferior spirituality to Catholics because they don't go to church daily?

First off, not that many Catholics go to daily Mass. The average Catholic goes to Sunday Mass and that's it. Some will go to Wednesday night Mass as well (since it's an evening Mass), but morning Masses are not usually packing the church. Nor is it any Catholic's "duty" to go to daily Mass. It should be something that we desire to do.

And when did I state that I was superior to you? Rather, you are acting like you are superior to us because you're not "blind" like us Pope-respecting Catholics.

Originally posted by HankD:
Many Baptist do spiritual things daily.
What is the magic of a church environment that makes your spirituality superior to ours because you go to a church to do those things and we do them at home or in a car or wherever?

HankD

Jesus Christ is physically present, body and blood, soul and divinity, at every celebration of the Mass. That's pretty special, if you ask me.

 

[HankD]

Can you name even one Baptist church in your area that you can attend a service on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday or Saturday? Now why is this?

Above is the post, the clear implication being that because Baptist churches do not have daily services Baptists are spiritually inferior to the Churches of Rome.

Jesus Christ is physically present, body and blood, soul and divinity, at every celebration of the Mass. That's pretty special, if you ask me.

What's the implication here?

I'll illustrate it by answering in like kind.

I have His Real Presence 24/7 without the help of a Roman priest.

I went through this thread and the very first response to john3v36 post was an ad hominem attack against him later added to and embellished with sarcasm, insult and innuendo.

If you want to play this game "My God is better than your God, na-na-na-na-na-na".
Fine, I can accommodate you, but what does it get us? NOTHING and where does it lead? NOWHERE.

You have come here to a Baptist sponsored Board from a Church who in the past has persecuted those from whom we received our heritage.
Not a warm and fuzzy environment and one that wisdom would dictate to walk softly.

When I first started posting with Catholics here, I tried to be pleasant but from day one it seemed to me that a few were professional provocateurs. So, rather than perpetuate animosity I have stayed away for the most part.

I see from my latest visit that nothing has changed.

It doesn't have to be that way.

HankD

[ September 14, 2002, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Can you name even one Baptist church in your area that you can attend a service on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday or Saturday? Now why is this?

Above is the post, the clear implication being that because Baptist churches do not have daily services Baptists are spiritually inferior to the Churches of Rome.</font>[/QUOTE]You have totally taken what he said out of context. Go back and read. Psalm stated that she didn't know of a single Catholic who went to Mass for any other reason that sheer duty. In response, Trying stated that the Catholic Church has daily Mass, which in reality is typically early in the morning. It takes dedication and desire to attend these services. People who go (and people DO go, or it wouldn't be offered) obviously love going to Mass. Thus, Trying said this to show that many Catholics go to Mass for love of Christ, and was chastising him for taking the stance that BAPTISTS are better. Obviously he wouldn't have made this statement if it didn't come with the opposite "truth," that Baptists don't go to church out of duty, but rather love of Christ.

In closure, Trying was EQUATING the two. We BOTH go to church out of love for Christ. You took this so out of context it's painful.

Jesus Christ is physically present, body and blood, soul and divinity, at every celebration of the Mass. That's pretty special, if you ask me.

What's the implication here?

I'll illustrate it by answering in like kind.

I have His Real Presence 24/7 without the help of a Roman priest.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Reread what I said. "Physical" presence. You may believe in a Real Presence, but I believe in a physical (body and blood, soul and divinity) presense. Jesus is physically RIGHT before me. You believe that Jesus is physically beside you in your car? Spiritually? Yes, of course. Really? Yes, of course. Physically? Do you?

Originally posted by HankD:
I went through this thread and the very first response to john3v36 post was an ad hominem attack against him later added to and embellished with sarcasm, insult and innuendo.

If you want to play this game "My God is better than your God, na-na-na-na-na-na".
Fine, I can accommodate you, but what does it get us? NOTHING and where does it lead? NOWHERE.

Take a look at the name of this thread. "Why I left the RCC." This post was established to tear down the Catholic Church. This is NOT an ad hominem?

Secondly, Trying's post was totally legitimate. The Mass is rooted in Scripture. To claim that he never experienced the Bible is, in fact, a lie, if he attended Mass. Also, are we not responsible for reading the Bible on our own anyway? I highly doubt anyone was withholding Scripture from him.

Originally posted by HankD:
You have come here to a Baptist sponsored Board from a Church who in the past has persecuted those from whom we received our heritage.
Not a warm and fuzzy environment and one that wisdom would dictate to walk softly.

You comdemn an ad hominem and then follow with one of your own. I'm glad that persecutions of the past now become a part of myself, and thus you gladly use them against me to make me out as the enemy. Shame on you. Shame.

Originally posted by HankD:
When I first started posting with Catholics here, I tried to be pleasant but from day one it seemed to me that a few were professional provocateurs. So, rather than perpetuate animosity I hhave stayed away for the most part.

I see from my latest visit that nothing has changed.

It doesn't have to be that way.

HankD

Go to the index page for this section of the board. Look at who is creating the threads. It's Baptists. It's Baptists challenging Catholic doctrine. It's not Catholics challenging Baptist doctrine. And frankly, when we don't respond, we are chastised. What exactly do you want from us? You offer a lose-lose situation and still complain at me.

I'm not on the offense these days; I'm on defense.

God bless you, and I apologize if I've heart your feelings or attacked your beliefs. But honestly, look at the situation; I'm not posting these threads.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
As a former Catholic, can you say that Catholics must go to Mass daily to maintain our salvation?

No, of course not. But you feel free to imply it though. Why is that?

Posted by HankD:
The answer is yes. If you commit a mortal sin and don't go to confession and die that day you go to hell. So if you have adulterous thoughts daily you must go to a church, find a priest and make a confession daily if you want to daily maintain the state of sanctifying grace.

Why do you continue to twist?

You say yes, that Catholics must go to Mass daily to maintain salvation, but not so cleverly switch to Confession. So your witness is that Catholics must attend Mass daily to maintain salvation?

Posted by HAnkD:
Why do Catholics imply that Baptists have an inferior spirituality to Catholics because they don't go to church daily?

Not my implication. The question concerning Baptist lack of attendance was meant to ask Psalm, if Baptists love church so much more than Catholics, why don't they go more frequently.

[ September 14, 2002, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

[pinoybaptist]

here's one for catholic convert to chew on.
credits to Bartholomew F. Brewer, Ph.D.
Former Roman Catholic Priest

The Roman Catholic Church claims to be God's true Church and all members are to promise obedience to the Bishop of Rome, whom she claims is successor to Saint Peter, Prince of the Apostles and Vicar of Jesus Christ.

The Roman Catholic Church is built on the assumption that in Matthew 16:13-19 Jesus appointed Peter the first pope and so founded His Church and established the papacy. If this is true, then all true Christians must become Catholic, if it is false, the whole Catholic religion is false and cultic and no true Christians could be identified with such a system. We must, then, search the Scriptures in order to know what is true. The Scriptures are not merely the writings of men, "But holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit" (II Peter 1:21). "All Scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproving, for correcting, for instructing in justice; that the man of God may be perfect, equipped for every good work: (II Timothy 3:16-17). "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words (the Bible) shall not pass away" (Matthew 24:35). Both Scripture and history testify to the authenticity, reliability, efficiency, and sufficiency of the Bible. Though some translations are better than others, all are reliable enough for general study.

When Jesus, in Matthew 16:18, said, "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" He used the demonstrative "this" (taute), pointing to Peter's confession, "Thou are the Christ, the Son of the living God" as the rock. Jesus said, "Thou are Peter (petros, a stone - all believers are stones, see I Peter 2:5 and Ephesians 2:21), and upon this rock (petra, a huge rock foundation - the confession that Jesus is the Christ), I will build my church". He did not promise to build His Church upon Peter. Jesus would not have trusted such a precious possession as His Church to the leadership of even one fallible man much less a whole succession of them. The pope of Rome is called the Vicar of the Son of God (Vicarius Filii Dei). In the Bible we find that the Holy Spirit, not a pope, was sent to take the place of Jesus on earth. That is what Vicar means. The Holy Spirit was given to guide us into all truth (John 16:7-15) and the Scriptures were given for teaching, for reproving, for correction, and for instruction (II Timothy 3:16). Christ did not leave His Church to human leadership. Jesus Himself is still the Head of His Church. He speaks to us through His infallible Word, the Holy Scriptures, by His ever present and infallible Holy Spirit.

Let us remember that Christ is the Rock and only Head of the Church. I Corinthians 3:11. For other foundation no one can lay, but that which has been laid, which is Christ Jesus.

I Corinthians 10:4. The rock was Christ.
Ephesians 1:22,23. Head over all the Church.
Ephesians 2:20. Christ Jesus... the chief corner stone.

Around thirty-four times in the Old Testament God is call a Rock or the Rock of Israel. You see, the Bible clearly teaches that when Jesus founded His Church, He was to be the only Head, the Holy Spirit the Vicar and Guide, and the Bible the only authority for faith and practice. All true Christians constitute THE TRUE CHURCH (those in whom the Holy Spirit dwells, who believe and obey Christ's teachings). True believers were called "Christians", not "Catholics".

Acts 11:26 Disciples were first called Christians.
Acts 26:28 Persuade me to become a Christian.
I Peter 4:16 Suffer as a Christian

There were no Roman Catholics until Christianity was merged with paganism into a state religion around 315 A.D. The true Christians obeyed God's Word, they never joined in the pagan corruption. The gates of hell have never prevailed against the true believers, they are few, their way is narrow, they would rather suffer martyrdom than compromise the Word of God or deny their Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. "Go out from her, my people, that you may not share in her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues" (Apocalypse 18:4). Believers must not be identified with compromising or counterfeit Churches!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE POPE
The Pope is called "Our Holy Father". See encyclical letter of Pope Leo XIII in the Douay Version of the Bible. He is also called "Our Most Holy Lord", Pope Pius X. See Cardinals Oath. Moreri, a famous historian said, "To make war against the Pope is to make war against God, seeing the Pope is God and God is the Pope". Decius said, "The Pope can do all things God can do". Pope Leo XIII said of himself, "The supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires, together with a perfect accord in the one faith, complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God himself." Pope Pius X said, "The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ himself hidden under the veil of the flesh. Does the Pope speak? It is Jesus Christ who speaks." Pope Pius XI once declared, "You know that I am the Holy Father, the representative of God on earth, the Vicar of Christ, which means that I am God on the earth." All this is blasphemy!

Isaias 44:8 Is there a God besides me?
Matthew 23:9 Call no one on earth your father.
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord.
Philippians 2:11 Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.
I Peter 5:3 Nor yet as lording it over your charges.
I Peter 5:1-4 I, your fellow-presbyter.

Peter called himself a presbyter (pastor), not a pope. He refused honor (Acts 10:25,26) saying "Stand up for I myself also am a man". The apostles argued regarding who was greatest in the kingdom (Matthew 18:1) which indicates that even they did not accept Peter as head of the Church. The wealth and power of the Roman Popes could have come to Peter or any of the apostles. They had charisma, they could heal and raise the dead and perform many other miracles. They could have accumulated gold and land and conquering armies, but they gave away all that was placed at their feet (Acts 4:37, 3:6). They rejoiced that they were counted worthy to suffer for the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 5:41). How could anyone be so naive as to think that the papacy evolved out of such humility and simplicity. The office of Pope is of pagan origin and cannot in any way be substantiated in Scripture. Because of the work and ministry of the Holy Spirit, such an office is not necessary or even desirable.

more to come....but, if y'all want to visit the site here's the link

 

[GraceSaves]

None of this is new, and it's all one person or one group's interpretation of Scripture versus another group's interpretation. That doesn't get us anywhere.

 

[pinoybaptist]

here's the "more to come"...

THE PRIESTHOOD
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that Jesus Christ ordained the twelve apostles to the priesthood at the Last Supper and that the powers of the priesthood were handed down during the past two thousand years. This teaching is clearly contrary to the Word of God.

In the Old Testament the work of Christ was prefigured under the three offices of prophet, priest and king. The nation of Israel had each office. With the coming of Christ each of these offices found its fulfillment in Him. Thus in the New Testament there is no need for a human sacrificing priesthood.

John 19:30. It is consummated.
I Timothy 2:5. There is one God, and one Mediator...Christ Jesus.
Hebrews 7:24. Because he continues forever, has an everlasting (non-transferable, intransmissible) priesthood.
Hebrews 7:25. He lives always to make intercession.
Hebrews 7:27. He does not need to offer sacrifices daily.
Hebrews 9:12. Having obtained eternal redemption.
Hebrews 10:10. We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
I Corinthians 12:28. God indeed has placed some in the Church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers...(no mention of sacramental priests).
Ephesians 4:11. He Himself gave some men as apostles, and some as prophets, others again as evangelists, and others as pastors and teachers...(again no mention of sacramental priests).
I Peter 5:1-3. I, your fellow-presbyter and witness...(Nothing about being a priest).

The office of priest is not the same as minister. The concept of a mediating, sacrificing priesthood originated and developed under Cyprian, the theological authority in the West until the time of Augustine, and was part of the merger of paganism with Christianity. Nowhere in the Scriptures will on find evidence of a mediating, sacrificing priesthood after Christ.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE MASS
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the Mass is the unbloody sacrifice of the body and blood of Jesus Christ. It also teaches that the Mass is the same sacrifice as that of the Cross. Both are against God's teaching.

Hebrews 7:27. He died once for all.
Hebrews 9:11-15. He entered once for all.
Hebrews 9:26. Once for all.
Hebrews 9:28. Christ offered once.
Hebrews 10:10. Once for all.
Hebrews 10:11,12. One sacrifice for sins.
Hebrews 10:14. For by one offering.
Hebrews 10:15-20. There is no longer offering for sin.

If Christ is offered again by Roman Catholic priests as they claim, then the above Scriptures are not true. There are more than 100,000 Masses said all over the world every day. Jesus suffers the terrible agony of Calvary at least 100,000 times every twenty-four hours instead of "once for all" as the Scriptures teach. We must believe the Scriptures. If we truly love the Lord Jesus Christ and seek to follow His Word, we will have no regard for the teaching that the bread and wine are "changed" into the body and blood of Christ and then presented to God as a sacrifice by which God is appeased and atonement o sin is made. When Jesus said, "This is my body" or "blood", He did not "change" the substance, but was explaining that He is the one "represented" by the Passover bread and wine. Jesus did not say touto gignetai, this has become or is turned into, but touto esti, which can only mean this represents or stands for. Just as the Passover was a remembrance, so is Communion of the Lord's Supper a remembrance until He comes. The Roman Church, in advocating the doctrine of transubstantiation, departs from the literal sense of Scripture. May we be able to say with the Apostle Paul: "We at least, are not, as many others, adulterating the Word of God." (II Corinthians 2:17)

 

[GraceSaves]

Thanks for posting more theology that you can't put in your own words.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
Thanks for posting more theology that you can't put in your own words.

Well, I find that when discussing theology with RC's you never stick to just the Bible. You always quote your theologians and other authors and "fathers of the church".
Don't like your own medicine ?

 

[HankD]

Your responses only reinforce my suspicions concerning your skill at provocation.

Somehow, we the victims here at the BB of this several months assault of insult, innuendo, ridicule and contempt have now become the victimizers.

HankD

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GraceSaves:
Thanks for posting more theology that you can't put in your own words.

Well, I find that when discussing theology with RC's you never stick to just the Bible. You always quote your theologians and other authors and "fathers of the church".
Don't like your own medicine ? </font>[/QUOTE]You just posted enough content for 10 different posts. I can't respond to this without writing a book. What was the purpose?

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by HankD:
Your responses only reinforce my suspicions concerning your skill at provocation.

Somehow, we the victims here at the BB of this several months assault of insult, innuendo, ridicule and contempt have now become the victimizers.

HankD

Maybe that's the case. Your point? Does that somehow make you a better person? Are you justified?

 

[HankD]

Maybe that's the case. Your point? Does that somehow make you a better person? Are you justified?

Dear GraceSaves, why does it have to be a case of being a better person?

My point. What is your agenda? Do you really want to understand Baptists and other non-Catholics or are you here to provoke?

I understand some of the non-Catholics here are vocal and some of us even obnoxious. But you must understand that our history and heritage is one of violence at the hands of your fore-fathers.
Now the sins of the fathers can't be transfered to the children. But if the children say the same things as their fathers, well we (or I) am suspicious of the intent of said children.

It is one thing to honestly and frankly say what one believes and what offends us concerning the other. It is quite another thing to be tearing down each others character.

It doesn't have to be that way.
We both can't be right. One is right, the other wrong or we are both wrong (to one degree or another).
No matter what the case, character assasination, direct or oblique, does not keep His command "love one another".

HankD

 

[GraceSaves]

Hank,

What would you have me do? No respond here anymore? When someone posts a challenge against my faith, which I see as obviously contrary, to simply ignore it? If I'm not meeting the requirements, please tell me what I should be doing differently. I see myself as defending my faith against challenges presented by other Baptists posters. I cant' remember the last time I posted a new thread as a challenge to the Baptist members.

Tell me what to do.