Why I'm thankful God convicted about Rock'nRoll

[DHK]

The record is very simple:
Sin is a transgression of the law. That is what sin is, according to the Bible. There is no need to redefine. The unsaved man is incapable of loving God, obeying God, does not seek after God, cannot please God. Yet he still transgresses God's law, and man's law. Man's law (government) is ordained by God (Romans 13).
To transgress the law, whether it be of man (a traffic ticket), or of God (ten commandments--a lie for example), is sin. Both can be done without the sin "being an action of the heart." Sin is not ALWAYS an action of the heart. It is transgression of the law. Stick to what the Bible says.
DHK

 

[Travelsong]

I am sticking to what the Bible says DHK. So are you except that the very same definition you give you are using to disagree with me.

Man is incapable of loving God with all his heart. He cannot do it. As a result of the fall he turns his natural affections from God to something else and sin follows.

That is the essence of sin. It is the action of a willfully disobedient heart.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Travelsong:

That is the essence of sin. It is the action of a willfully disobedient heart.

Your problem is that you connect sin with the heart all the time, which is not theologically correct. A person may speed: intentionally (of the heart), or unintentionally (not of the heart). Either way he sins and earns himself a ticket. Not all sin can be attributed to the heart. That is a false assumption to make. That is why the Lord made a provision in the Old Testament for sins of ignorance--sins done without intention of the heart. Sin is a transgression of the law, not of the heart. Stick to what the Bible says.
DHK

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
Sin is always an action of the heart.

This statement is absolutely true. We can murder, steal, commit adultery, idolatry, etc. with the words of our mouths and the meditations of our hearts. The Decalogue encompasses every action, thought and motive of a man.

 

[Aaron]

DHK,

Sins of ignorance are still sins and are rooted in the heart. The man doesn't have to have cognition of sin for the sin to be of the heart.

The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can know it?

 

[Aaron]

Eric said:
Paul does not call any of what he is discussing "superstition and ignorance". He does call it "waek conscience"; but you sometimes seem to take that as as much of an insult as "superstition and ignorance".

Yes he does. He says that in all men is not this knowledge (that idols are nothing and meat sacrificed to an idol is not made evil thereby).

There it is, ignorance and superstition.

If we accept your reasoning here; then we should be able to dismiss this person's conviction about rock music as ignorance and superstition.

No, because love demands that in matters not essential to the Kingdom of God, we defer to the weaker brother. He has no power over our own consciences, be we have power to either destroy or support him.

So, God doesn't give you the privilege of merely dismissing someone's conscience (or conviction) as something personal, but charges you with teaching him that Christ has purged all meats all the while you're abstaining for his sake.

There is no prophecy of a private interpretation. All Scripture is universal and, rightly understood, means the same thing to everyone. Eating meat is good. Someone might think it isn't, but not because God impressed it upon him.

So what is happening is that you keep stepping away from the music argument to try to prove some OTHER point.

I'm not side-stepping anything. You want to impress upon me the arbitrary burden of providing something I don't have to provide to make a valid argument. Until that's resolved, it's fruitless to go forward with a discussion about specific musical styles.

 

[Guitar25]

Aaron, I honestly have NO idea what side you are supporting, let alone what you're talkin about. You seem to be putting so much emphasis on ten dollar words that someone like myself can't really understand the point that you're attempting to get across. Nothing against you, just please simplify.

 

[Travelsong]

I am curious Aaron, why does it seem that you make no distinction between the heart which communicates good or evil and the medium the heart chooses to relay it's intent?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Aaron:
DHK,

Sins of ignorance are still sins and are rooted in the heart. The man doesn't have to have cognition of sin for the sin to be of the heart.

The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can know it?

Not so Aaron. I agree with Travelsong's statement to a point. I take exception to making it an absolute statement, "always" from the heart. It isn't so. I gave an example. I will make it more specific, as per speeding. (True incident). A man was going approaching a town he had never been through before. The posted speed limit on the road that he was travelling on 50 mph. There was no visible sign to say when the speed limit dropped to either 40 or 30. The assumption therefore he made, was that by the time he reached the city limit he should be going 30 mph, the usual stated limit of city roads. But well before he got to the city he was stopped by the police and given a ticket for not going 40, though he could not see anywhere that it was posted. Apparently everyone just knew that that was the speed limit. He was ticketed. He had transgressed the law out of his own ignorance, not out of his own heart. If there was a sign, he had no knowledge of it. Maybe it was hidden by some brush. I don't know. But whatever the case, the sin was not of the heart.

All sin does not originate from the heart. Sins of ignorance did not originate from the heart. That is why the provision was put there from the Lord. How can a sin that is done ignorantly be from the heart?

Most sin is from the heart. But you cannot make that an absolute statement and say that ALL sin is from the heart.
DHK

 

[Travelsong]

DHK You are implying that God sets us up to sin through no fault of our own so you are forced from that false assumption to imagine obscure scenarios to prove that assumption. The entire Bible is concerned with addressing sin in terms of obeying God's commandments. The entire Bible concludes that the only way to obey God's commandments is to love Him with all your heart, soul and mind. The entire Bible also concludes that man disobeys God's commandments because he does not love God with all his heart, soul and mind.

Yes, it's that clear.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
The entire Bible concludes that the only way to obey God's commandments is to love Him with all your heart, soul and mind. The entire Bible also concludes that man disobeys God's commandments because he does not love God with all his heart, soul and mind.

Yes, it's that clear.

Those statements are absolutely false. You have a grave misunderstanding of soteriology.

Romans 3:9-18 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

This is a description of man in his unsaved state. No man seeks after God, let alone loves him. A man seeks after God, like a thieve looks for a policeman. His position: he is at enmity with God; he cannot love God. It is impossible for him to do so. Neither does he want to.

Romans 8:7-8 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The unsaved man disobeys God, not because he does not love God, but because he cannot love God, nor does he want to love God. Loving God is the least thing from his mind. What does loving God have to do with this topic?

Sin, by its very definition is "a transgression of the law." 1John 3:4. This definition applies to both saved and unsaved alike. It has nothing to do with the heart. It is a transgression of the law, not of the heart. Whether you transgress the law intentionally and willfully (out of your heart), or unintentionally and ignorantly (out of your innocence) it is still sin). That is why God put in the Bible a provision for sins of ignorance. You have not adequately addressed that yet. Sins of ignorance do not originate from the heart, or else they would not be sins of ignorance, would they?

Leviticus 5:15 If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering:
DHK

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
I am curious Aaron, why does it seem that you make no distinction between the heart which communicates good or evil and the medium the heart chooses to relay it's intent?

I do make a distinction. Music isn't a medium. It is communication—the message itself. It's an action. It is a willful, intelligent act.

The medium for music is the air, and air is not unclean in and of itself.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Guitar25:
Aaron, I honestly have NO idea what side you are supporting, let alone what you're talkin about. You seem to be putting so much emphasis on ten dollar words that someone like myself can't really understand the point that you're attempting to get across. Nothing against you, just please simplify.

Rock music is an evil, carnal and sensual form of music unfit for the worship of Christ, and incompatible with the day-to-day life of the Christian.

That's my stand.

To sum up my arguments thus far...

lilrabbi is either right or wrong about music. If he's wrong, then God did not "convict" him to give up rock music.

If he's right, the God did convict him, and the truth of which God convicted him is universal and non-optional. That is...it applies to every man, woman and child on the face of the earth in every age and culture.

 

[Guitar25]

Ok, you think that rock music is evil and unfit. That's your opinion and each is entitled to there own opinion. But do you have a reason for it? I would just like to know.

In my opinion, the music style doesn't make it unfit, its the lyrics expressed through the music. I have stated many times in this thread my reasons.

But i would just like to know what your reason is for your opinion. If you posted them before, i missed em. please lemme know.

 

[Guitar25]

hang up, ya know what? I think God is sitting on his throne in heaven just baffled by all this. We can all state our opinions till we turn blue in the face but it makes no difference. The only one that can say whether or not Christian Rock, Christian Rap, CCM and all other forms of such is glorifying to God is God himself. No one else. I think we should all together stop this thread cause all this is doing is creating hostility between Christians, brothers and sisters in Christ. We can all have our opinions, but i think this thread should stop.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Travelsong:
The entire Bible concludes that the only way to obey God's commandments is to love Him with all your heart, soul and mind. The entire Bible also concludes that man disobeys God's commandments because he does not love God with all his heart, soul and mind.

Yes, it's that clear.

Those statements are absolutely false. You have a grave misunderstanding of soteriology.</font>[/QUOTE]so·te·ri·ol·o·gy :theology dealing with salvation especially as effected by Jesus Christ

Adam is the father of the human race. He was held accountable for eating the forbidden fruit simply because he obeyed his wife. That is, Adam rejected God's commandment and replaced God as the rightful object of worship with his wife, and ultimately his self. This action of the heart was the root of all sin which is pride. The punishment and curse of sin which fell to Adam fell to the entire human race. We are all under the same exact curse in that we sin of pride in our natural state (Romans 1:18-28) and we must face the same penalty (1 Corinthians 15:22).

God shows the manner of His judgement against mankind within the first few chapters of Genesis before the Law was given!

Gen 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Now, do I need to dig up the dozens and dozens of verses that deal with God's judgement of the heart and it's intents?

Man's fallen nature, that which causes him to sin is ENTIRELY within the heart.

Yes sin is a transgression of the law. That is, sin is the heart willfully tansgressing God's commandments!

It does not matter that a man is ignorant of God's commandments, his heart is naturally at emnity with God.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Aaron:
I do make a distinction. Music isn't a medium. It is communication—the message itself. It's an action. It is a willful, intelligent act.

The medium for music is the air, and air is not unclean in and of itself.

Is the medium for sign language light? Is the medium for Morse code electricity?

Where does the heart end and the air begin? At soundwaves? Wouldn't soundwaves be just as much a medium for music as air?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Travelsong:
The entire Bible concludes that the only way to obey God's commandments is to love Him with all your heart, soul and mind. The entire Bible also concludes that man disobeys God's commandments because he does not love God with all his heart, soul and mind.

Yes, it's that clear.

Those statements are absolutely false. You have a grave misunderstanding of soteriology.</font>[/QUOTE]so·te·ri·ol·o·gy :theology dealing with salvation especially as effected by Jesus Christ
</font>[/QUOTE]"The entire Bible concludes that the only way to obey God's commandments is to love Him with all your heart, soul and mind."
Do you do this? Can you do this--that is, love God with all your heart, soul, and mind? Be careful before you answer. According to your post, if you can't you are not saved.
DHK

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by DHK:
The entire Bible concludes that the only way to obey God's commandments is to love Him with all your heart, soul and mind."
Do you do this? Can you do this--that is, love God with all your heart, soul, and mind? Be careful before you answer. According to your post, if you can't you are not saved.
DHK

No of course I can't! No one can! Not as long as we are in this body. Christ was the fulfillment of all the law because He was the love required to fulfill it.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
The entire Bible concludes that the only way to obey God's commandments is to love Him with all your heart, soul and mind."
Do you do this? Can you do this--that is, love God with all your heart, soul, and mind? Be careful before you answer. According to your post, if you can't you are not saved.
DHK

No of course I can't! No one can! Not as long as we are in this body. Christ was the fulfillment of all the law because He was the love required to fulfill it. </font>[/QUOTE]You are absolutely right. No one can. Then why do you emphasize:

The entire Bible is concerned with addressing sin in terms of obeying God's commandments. The entire Bible concludes that the only way to obey God's commandments is to love Him with all your heart, soul and mind. The entire Bible also concludes that man disobeys God's commandments because he does not love God with all his heart, soul and mind.

...the possibility that we can? You seem to indicate one must love God with all his heart, soul, and mind in order to please God or be saved. And yet at the same time, you freely admit that it is impossible for man to do so.

It is obvious then that sin is a transgression of the law (as the Bible says it is), and not of the heart. It is impossible to love God with all of the heart all of the time. It is not impossible to sin apart from the heart (though most sin is a deliberate act of the will or mind, i.e., the heart).
DHK