Why is it such a big deal?

[Aaron]

Maybe I'm missing something here. But why is the Cal/Arm debate such a huge deal?

Why is the foundation of a house such a huge deal?

 

[steaver]

Why is the foundation of a house such a huge deal?

That would be going to an extreme position. Both Cals and Non cals have the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as their foundation.
No other foundation can be laid than that which has been laid by Jesus Christ. The controversy is in what is built upon that foundation.....

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1Cor3)

 

[Revmitchell]

Maybe I'm missing something here. But why is the Cal/Arm debate such a huge deal? I don't see how it affects mine or anyone else's eternal destination. Looking at the 5 points, I don't see how whether they are right or wrong changes anything except our own outlook.

My biggest problem with the five points myself is that in my mind, they negate the need for evangelism. But our residents Calvies all claim to evangelize, so that doesn't change anything.

Whether or not man can come of his own volition or not, both groups seem to be working towards the same goal: reaching the lost.

The second problem I have is the "P". But if someone believes a person who doesn't persevere isn't saved, it doesn't change my belief that he is.

So, maybe people from both camps can help me out. Rather than being a debate, this thread hopefully will be a discussion of why it's a big deal to you. And please, let's keep it on that topic. Let's not degenerate into debating people on their views.

Based on past posts it is a big deal because some equate Calvinism with the gospel.

 

[The Archangel]

Jesus covered this issue though. He said every sin would be forgiven men, with the exception of unbelief (Matt12:31). Those who find themselves in hell will find themselves there because of unbelief (rejecting the call to repent and believe). God has paid the sin debt for the whole world, not just the elect (1Jo2:2).

The conundrum here, though, is this: If Jesus died for every sin (in the unlimited atonement view), then why do people go to hell? Furthermore, if He died for every sin, why, then, is the sin of unbelief uncovered?

If unbelief is not forgiven, then it isn't paid for. If unbelief isn't paid for, Jesus' atonement is limited.

Of course, the atonement must actually accomplish something--forgiveness of sins through the penal-substutionary death of Christ. He actually pays for the sin--God's wrath is poured out on our sin which Christ bears. An atonement that only makes things "possible," is really no atonement at all--nothing is actually paid. This is, perhaps, why the word "Propitiation" is so important. We know that it means the removal of wrath based on a substitute bearing that wrath. Now, you will counter with the 1 John passage that says Christ was the propitiation for the whole world... But, we know--whatever that verse means--that it does not mean all the sins are paid for. Why? Because we know there are sheep; we know there are goats. And, if all sin is paid for, there is nothing for the unbelievers to pay for in hell, and it makes God unjust because He is requiring and exacting a double payment for sin--Christ pays and the unbeliever pays.

By the way, one professor at Seminary, who rejected the "L" of the TULIP readily admits that the hole in his argument is that God would, then, require a double payment.

But, you might say, the only sin they go to hell for is unbelief. But, as stated earlier, if that is the case, then Jesus didn't die for every sin.

The Archangel

 

[kyredneck]

...The second problem I have is the "P". But if someone believes a person who doesn't persevere isn't saved, it doesn't change my belief that he is.....

I prefer 'Preservation' over 'Perseverance'.

Many there are that make shipwreck of their faith but are still yet preserved. 1 Cor 5:5 being a good example.

 

[The Archangel]

Maybe I'm missing something here. But why is the Cal/Arm debate such a huge deal? I don't see how it affects mine or anyone else's eternal destination. Looking at the 5 points, I don't see how whether they are right or wrong changes anything except our own outlook.

My biggest problem with the five points myself is that in my mind, they negate the need for evangelism. But our residents Calvies all claim to evangelize, so that doesn't change anything.

Whether or not man can come of his own volition or not, both groups seem to be working towards the same goal: reaching the lost.

The second problem I have is the "P". But if someone believes a person who doesn't persevere isn't saved, it doesn't change my belief that he is.

So, maybe people from both camps can help me out. Rather than being a debate, this thread hopefully will be a discussion of why it's a big deal to you. And please, let's keep it on that topic. Let's not degenerate into debating people on their views.

There are many more reasons, but I'll share a few...

It's a big deal because:

1. Arminian theology depicts God as wishing and hoping that people will repent. Arminian theology requires man to give God permission to save him, use him for His will, etc. In this system, Man is the main actor and god is the responder. Of course, in the Bible, it is ALWAYS God who acts and man who responds.

2. Arminan theology denies, at the most basic, fundamental level, the sovereignty of God and replaces it with the sovereignty of man (see point #1).

I have to go now.... But those are two reasons why it's important. And, I should add, not every Arminian degenerates into this error, but many do. There is a reason, after all, that Open Theism came from the Arminian side of the theological spectrum.

The Archangel

 

[kyredneck]

.....if He died for every sin, why, then, is the sin of unbelief uncovered?

I would think that the account given of the Exodus generation shows conclusively that the sin of unbelief is in fact covered.

 

[steaver]

The conundrum here, though, is this: If Jesus died for every sin (in the unlimited atonement view), then why do people go to hell? Furthermore, if He died for every sin, why, then, is the sin of unbelief uncovered?

If unbelief is not forgiven, then it isn't paid for. If unbelief isn't paid for, Jesus' atonement is limited.

The Archangel

Are you asking me, or questioning Jesus? Jesus said "all manner of sin but".

 

[The Archangel]

Are you asking me, or questioning Jesus? Jesus said "all manner of sin but".

Understand the word "Manner."

The Archangel

 

[steaver]

There are many more reasons, but I'll share a few...

It's a big deal because:

1. Arminian theology depicts God as wishing and hoping that people will repent. Arminian theology requires man to give God permission to save him, use him for His will, etc. In this system, Man is the main actor and god is the responder. Of course, in the Bible, it is ALWAYS God who acts and man who responds.

2. Arminan theology denies, at the most basic, fundamental level, the sovereignty of God and replaces it with the sovereignty of man (see point #1).

I have to go now.... But those are two reasons why it's important. And, I should add, not every Arminian degenerates into this error, but many do. There is a reason, after all, that Open Theism came from the Arminian side of the theological spectrum.

The Archangel

Is God wishing and hoping??? Don't think I would say it that way. Was God wishing and hoping Adam and Eve would resist the devil and obey? God either gave them a freewill choice or God caused them to fall. I assume you will take the God gave them a choice approach and if so then was God wishing and hoping they choose life?

If a Sovereign God decides in His Sovereignty that He will give His subjects freewill to choose life and death, does this then make God less Sovereign?

 

[steaver]

Understand the word "Manner."

The Archangel

Ok, I have, point remains.

 

[kyredneck]

Jesus covered this issue though. He said every sin would be forgiven men, with the exception of unbelief (Matt12:31). Those who find themselves in hell will find themselves there because of unbelief (rejecting the call to repent and believe). God has paid the sin debt for the whole world, not just the elect (1Jo2:2).

I would think that the account given of the Exodus generation shows conclusively that the sin of unbelief is in fact covered.

 

[steaver]

I would think that the account given of the Exodus generation shows conclusively that the sin of unbelief is in fact covered.

Are you telling me Jesus was mistaken when He said "all manner but"?

 

[The Archangel]

Ok, I have, point remains.

I used the word as an imperative in two undefined ways:

1. "Manner" isn't in the Matthew passage.

2. The passage cannot be ripped from its context. The Holy Spirit is the One who regenerates. To reject Him is to reject Christ. The manner of salvation the entire New Testament shows is based in the Holy Spirit's work of regeneration.

The Holy Spirit doesn't save the unwilling. Rather, He makes the unwilling willing.

But, if unbelief isn't forgiven, then Christ didn't die for that sin, and even your interpretation of the atonement is "limited" in some way.

The Archangel

 

[kyredneck]

Are you telling me Jesus was mistaken when He said "all manner but"?

Mt 12:31 concerns blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, not unbelief.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That would be going to an extreme position. Both Cals and Non cals have the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as their foundation.
No other foundation can be laid than that which has been laid by Jesus Christ. The controversy is in what is built upon that foundation.....

Excuse me but that's not the correct foundation. Loving the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and then loving your neighbor as yourself.....these are the foundatons

 

[Winman]

Is God wishing and hoping??? Don't think I would say it that way. Was God wishing and hoping Adam and Eve would resist the devil and obey? God either gave them a freewill choice or God caused them to fall. I assume you will take the God gave them a choice approach and if so then was God wishing and hoping they choose life?

If a Sovereign God decides in His Sovereignty that He will give His subjects freewill to choose life and death, does this then make God less Sovereign?

LOL, Calvinists constantly accuse non-Cals of trying to usurp God's sovereignty with free will, but it is Calvinists that insist God could not choose to save those who freely believe.

Why oh why couldn't God choose to save persons who freely choose of their own free will to believe on Jesus?

If God wants to save only those who choose to freely believe on Jesus, and to damn those who refuse to believe on Jesus, who are you oh Calvinist to tell him he can't?

So, it's a ridiculous and nonsensical view. Calvinists have all sorts of bogus arguments like this that they have been indoctrinated with. Most cannot think well enough to see how foolish these arguments truly are.

 

[Winman]

That would be going to an extreme position. Both Cals and Non cals have the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as their foundation.

False, the foundation of Calvinism is election. If you were not elected, then Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection does nothing for you (Limited Atonement).

In Calvinism, only if you were elected does Jesus's death, burial, and resurrection have meaning and purpose.

Your personal election is PRIMARY in Calvinism. This is what I tried to show earlier, but folks don't get it.

In Calvinism, the "elect" are #1, Jesus is #2.

In Non-Cal/Arm Jesus is #1. We only become elect if we believe on Jesus and are baptized "into Christ".

 

[steaver]

Mt 12:31 concerns blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, not unbelief.

And what is that in your pov?

 

[steaver]

Excuse me but that's not the correct foundation. Loving the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and then loving your neighbor as yourself.....these are the foundatons

Oh boy....

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ
" (1Cor3:11)