why is it ?

I am very serious. Calvinism makes God into a eccentric, manipulative puppeteer.

And about altar calls: there's nothing wrong with "ritual" and man-made traditions in and of themselves, it's only when they're misused (like anything) that they are wrong.
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Edited to remove quote.

[ April 30, 2005, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

I am very serious. Calvinism makes God into a eccentric, manipulative puppeteer.
</font>[/QUOTE]I'm serious too. Who are you to reply to God, "why have you made me like this?" Doesn't God have the right, if He chooses, to make one creature for the express purpose of revealing His wrath against that creature's unrighteousness, and to make another creature for the express purpose of revealing His mercy and grace? Of course He does, whether you like it or not.

 

Who am I? I've already told you. A puppet. If I say to God "why have you made me like this", it is ONLY because he made me say it. The puppeteer is making me amazed that you keep talking as if I actually am able to do something of my own.

The puppeteer is making me agree! And whether "I like it or not" is not even up to me in the first place, that's his doing. Yes, he is perfectly within his rights for making a puppet unrighteous, then spanking that puppet for being unrighteous. My kids play the same sort of games with their action figures.

 

I encourage you to reread the book of Romans. This is awfully close to blasphemy. You may treat Paul's teaching on God's rule of Creation as if it were a game, but the price for playing that game is bigger than anyone can pay. Anyone but Christ, that is.

 

I'm just reiterating what you are saying. You said "Doesn't God have the right, if He chooses, to make one creature for the express purpose of revealing His wrath against that creature's unrighteousness". No difference.

 

I'm just reiterating what you are saying. You said "Doesn't God have the right, if He chooses, to make one creature for the express purpose of revealing His wrath against that creature's unrighteousness". No difference. </font>[/QUOTE]Comparing God's righteous rule of His creation with your kids playing with their action figures is a huge difference.

 

Really? Explain the difference.

 

I'd love to, but it will be a little while.

 

God is holy and righteous and just in His own nature. Are your kids?

God does all things according to the counsel of His perfect will. Do your kids?

God has revealed Himself to be always rational in everything, and never arbitrary or capricious. Are your kids ever arbitrary or capricious?

And yet God has revealed that, all of these things being true of Himself, if He created something for the express purpose of revealing His wrath against that creature's unrighteousness, He would be perfectly holy and righteous and just in doing so.

You may not understand how all of this can fit together. I do not claim to understand it fully. But, it is the clear teaching of Scripture, and therefore I cannot deny it. For you to take what God has revealed of Himself and claim that it would make Him an "eccentric, manipulative puppeteer", or that it would make Him like your kids at play, looks a lot like blasphemy to me.

 

whatever,

I am painfully aware of those differences between God and my kids. I am also aware of the differnces between God and a chicken, despite Matt 23:37. Those differences are not what I was referring to. I was referring to how they play with and control their toys.

You said "Doesn't God have the right, if He chooses, to make one creature for the express purpose of revealing His wrath against that creature's unrighteousness" - the other day one of my children was playing with two action figures, adn had decided that one was a "good guy" and the other one was a "bad guy". He then made them battle, and ultimately the bad guy was defeated and destroyed simply because it was predetermined he was the bad guy. No real difference: some are predetermined to be righteous and some are predetermined to be unrighteous, simply to let the controller play his little game, with the puppets having no say or control in the matter - it's all up to the whims of the one in the sovereign position.

BTW, I am not saying God is a puppeteer. I do not believe that he is. My point is that God being a puppeteer is really the logical foundation (and conclusion) of Calvinism, and thus one of the reasons I reject it. My point is that I don't see how Calvinism can at all work without God being a puppeteer. And what is really interesting, is that when Calvinists try to tell me otherwise, they always talk as though there was something I could do on my own (choose, accept, believe, understand, etc.) in their rebuttals - which of course is what really separates Arminians from Calvinists in the first place.

 

See, you're still missing it. You are still talking about God in terms of playing a game, and you speak of whims. I just affirmed that God is not capritious or arbitrary, that He does nothing on a whim, but that He does everything according to His holy and righteous and just eternal plan. So can't you reply without suggesting that these ideas that we reject are foundational to our beliefs?

You said this - "My point is that I don't see how Calvinism can at all work without God being a puppeteer." Don't you see that this proves nothing? There are lots of things that I can't understand, but I don't deny them on that basis. We are not free to hold to those things in Scripture that we understand and drop the things that we can't understand.

Historic Calvinism denies that God is a puppeteer, because that's not how He reveals Himself in Scripture. Historic Calvinism says that God does orchestrate all things that come to pass, yes, all things; but He does it in such a way that everyone is actually choosing to do exactly what they want to do. Puppets (and action figures) don't do that.

 

I'm not missing it. What, if anything, can I actually "choose" or "do" or "want" that wasn't predetermined and caused by God that I choose or do or want it?

 

Nothing, but you still choose to do it, and you still want to do it. Puppets don't choose anything. Puppets cannot want.

 

Nothing, but you still choose to do it, and you still want to do it. Puppets don't choose anything. Puppets cannot want. </font>[/QUOTE]"Nothing". Not even "choose" or "want" are under our control. If "nothing", then we are truly puppets, even though we are several orders of magnitude more complex than the puppets we make for ourselves. "choose" and "want" are actions, just like "dance" and "talk". If we only "choose" and "want" something because God make us "choose" and "want" it (and then he potentially reveals his wrath towards us for "choosing" or "wanting" it), we're just really complex puppets. Maybe more like robots.

 

I still disagree with this conclusion, but even if it is true, so what? Given that God is free to do as He wishes, if He did create robots for whatever purpose He had in mind He would still be holy and righteous and just, what's your objection?

 

As Calvinism tries to "be God" and understand how free will and sentient life works - the best it comes up with is the concept of "toy" not "sentient life".

 

Why? How could it logically be any different if what you are saying is true?

Lots of problems. Some are:

1. scripture lies when it says that when we are tempted, we will not be tempted beyond what we are able to resist (1 Cor 10:13). For if we EVER sin, it was because we were NOT able to resist for God made us do it and we could not do otherwise.

2. it makes many other scriptures into a ridiculous joke, exhorting us to do this or don't do that, when in fact such advice is completely meaningless since we cannot do or not do anything outside of what has been predetermined for us.

3. it makes God the cause of sin, for when we sin it is because he made us want to, and made us do it. If I make a robot and preprogram it to kill someone, I can say the robot is responsible and hold it accountable and punish it all I want, but I was really the cause.

4. it makes God into a deceiver, for giving us all the illusion that we are not robots and that we actually can "choose" or "want" on our own.

Sure, he's God and can do all this if he wants and we can only deal with it the way we are predetermined to, but ultimately it makes scripture, our relationship with him, all of Christianity, and even life itself into nothing more than a prolonged, inescapable, cruel joke.

And lastly, if what you're saying is true, then God wanted and made me to tell you all this. Wrap your head around THAT paradox.

 

That's simply not the conclusion that Paul comes to, and as long as you try to relate God's rule over His creation to anything that you can make and control then you are going to struggle with this. God's rule over creation is not like a mad scientist creating murderous robots. Somehow your system has got to account for God calling the wicked Babylonians to destroy Jerusalem; and for Him intending for good everything that Joseph's hateful brothers did to Joseph; and Him using pagan butchers (and the weather) to take every blessing away from Job; and Him using the Romans in delivering up His own Son for our sins. They were all committing the sins that they wanted to, and they are all accountable and will be judged for it, and they were also all doing exactly what God wanted them to do.

 

Originally posted by whatever:

Why? How could it logically be any different if what you are saying is true?

Of course not! That's because God isn't a puppeteer, controlling every thought and want and action. Instead, if he controlled everything as you have said, there could be no other conclusion.