Why is my pastor so picky about our music?

Thanks Aaron. Yes this is my first post in music. Unfortunately my first post is a bit of a bust (for those who are picky...)

Actually it isn't like me to misuse a word like that... thanks for the correction BB

 

Hi;
This, too, is my first post in this forum. And my second or third on this site. About music. I have heard the tired arguement that 'we need modern music to attract the kids' many times in many places. My question would naturally follow, "Why?". It has been rightly stated by someone wiser than I, "What you win them with, you win them to." Why must the church embrace a style of music which has its roots in the world? Have we forgotten the truth, "I AM the true vine, ye are the branches."? Therefore if Jesus is the Vine then why is your music's roots in the world? Sounds very contradictory and compromising to me. What is so wrong with church music SOUNDING like church music? If it sounds like the world then it probably is OF the world.
I believe that this entire arguement about music stems from carnal Christians wanting the world and Jesus at the same time.IMHO. Yes, there ARE many Scriptures that one could quote to support both sides. Big deal. Even JW's and Mormons do this. Doesn't make them right. Nor does it prove anything. Do you want to know how to test this music thing? Get a tape of your favorite CCM artist. Then remove the words, and listen to the music with your eyes closed. Do you find yourself tapping your foot? Or does it take you into the very halls of heaven? For some very accurate assesments on this whole music discussion you ought to visit, www.dialthetruthministries.com I am not sure if this is all one word or not but at this site you will find a very biblical and balanced view to music within the church.
Everybody has an opinion. And there is the problem. Do any of you remember the very last verse in the book of Judges? ..."and every man did that which was right in his own eyes".
I applaud this Pastor who is making a stand in the church which God has given him. Do you think he is too picky? Perhaps he is looking out for your character, testimony, and reputation? Still don't like it? Then by all means find some place you do like. Some place where maybe the Pastor doesn't give a rip about godliness and seperation from all things worldly. As for me, often times I do not like the decisions my Pastor makes, but he IS the Pastor and I am NOT. Ever heard of submission to authority? I have also heard it said, "I don't see anything wrong with modern music." Maybe THAT is the problem. You can't see.
av1611jim
ps; I am sorry if I sounded a bit harsh. I do not mean to. However I am VERY passionate about music. I know the worlds music all to well. Besides drugs, violence, crime, and other evils, Jesus saved me from the trap of the worlds music also...Jim

 

Every style of music has its 'roots' in the world.

Have we forgotten the truth, "I AM the true vine, ye are the branches."?

No, I never knew any truth about you being any true vine.

If it sounds like the world then it probably is OF the world.

I ain't ever heard any music that stimulates any reserved section of the auditory nerve; it works the same way.

I believe that this entire arguement about music stems from carnal Christians wanting the world and Jesus at the same time.

If I want Jesus I will still want a drink of worldly water on a hot dry day, as well as a rest of conscious worldly brain cell functions, worldly nourishment, and worldly salve on a bleeding cut.

Yes, there ARE many Scriptures that one could quote to support both sides. Big deal.

Big deal. At least you can see that.

Do you want to know how to test this music thing? Get a tape of your favorite CCM artist. Then remove the words, and listen to the music with your eyes closed. Do you find yourself tapping your foot?

No.

Or does it take you into the very halls of heaven?

No; still on earth.

Everybody has an opinion. And there is the problem.

Yeah; just like everybody's got a bellybutton.

Do any of you remember the very last verse in the book of Judges? ..."and every man did that which was right in his own eyes".

And what are YOU doing?...what's wrong in your own eyes?

I applaud this Pastor who is making a stand in the church which God has given him. Do you think he is too picky?

What he does with his own nostrils is his own concern.

Still don't like it? Then by all means find some place you do like. Some place where maybe the Pastor doesn't give a rip about godliness and seperation from all things worldly. As for me, often times I do not like the decisions my Pastor makes, but he IS the Pastor and I am NOT. Ever heard of submission to authority?

So you're recommending to some guy to find a church where the pastor "doesn't give a rip about godliness and separation from all things worldly" and 'submit to his authority'.

ps; I am sorry if I sounded a bit harsh. I do not mean to.

Oh, think little about it. Don't we all flip our boiling lids every once in a while?

[Raw antagonism deleted. Aaron.]

[ August 31, 2002, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

Welcome, av1611jim. We look forward to more posts from you.

 

Hi AvJim! I understand your concerns about music. It is reasonable to think about such things. However, please allow me to suggest you rethink a few aspects of your conclusion.

ChristianCynic is correct that ALL music is “worldly” so to speak. Instruments are created with “earthly materials” (wood, brass, etc), musicians who play music are tainted by a sinful nature to some extent (all men are), the songwriters who write songs – no matter how well meaning and “Christian” they may be, are still influenced to some degree by sin. All of the above is inarguable. As a result, ALL music is “worldly” at least to some degree.

Now, a violin or old-fashioned church organ is no less rythymic and beat oriented than is a young Rapper punching out beats on a synthesizer. In music, a quarter note is a quarter note no matter what instrument is playing it. Furthermore, the “beat” or “volume” of a composition does not define “earthliness” of music. The LYRICS might (depending on what they say).

It is the INTENT of the musician, performer or songwriter’s heart that determines its integrity. The LOUDNESS of music is a glory (Psalm 33: 3, Psalm 98: 4). Old-fashioned Symphony orchestras in full blast are just as loud – if not louder – than your typical rock band with all of their amplifiers.

If a man stands up in the church, and sings a beautiful OLD FASHIONED version of a Christian song, yet does this primarily to impress the church with his vocal skill, then this man SINS! However, if a young kid gets up in the church and starts to “rap” or “rock and roll” about Jesus – and means it as an expression of joy from his heart – then this performer is clearly glorifying GOD. The INTENT of the heart of the performer is what counts – it is not the “noise level” of the music (as the Psalmist plainly points out).

Lastly, please do not be afraid of things that might appear different from so-called tradition. A young kid is not necessarily “evil” simply because he has a “punk rock” haircut, dies his hair Green, and likes loud music. Not at all! True evil appears when men pose as Righteous religionists, yet are inwardly ravenous wolves.

The devil does not dress with a pitchfork, red suit and tail. The Bible teaches that the devil is exactly the OPPOSITE (2 Cor. 11: 13-15). Often, the evil ones appear as "angels of light."

latterrain77

 

Here is a radical idea ....how about the person's heart be right *and* the style be reverent and set apart both...it can be done,you know. Just because someone's heart is not right,does not mean we accept and tolerate whatever the hip thing is...we need to address the heart issues,not the style. Changing the style or allowing less depth music in our churches only downgrades things,it doesn't deal with the heart or God's Word being in the heart of men. It just makes church more comfortable for those wanting that style...since when did the church become a "give them what they want" bussines?????

I just don't understand the philosophy behind this music stuff.....

 

Now as to the statement that all music is of the world. Is it needful that I remind you that it is not? Just where do you think Lucifer GOT his 'pipes' as stated in Ezekiel? No my friends. Music is NOT of this world. On the contrary, it is of heaven and our adversary has corrupted it, just as surely as he has corrupted everything else that is good and holy which our God has given us to richly enjoy. I really do not care how many 'nice' sounding reasons and excuses one may propose for their acceptance of corrupted music into the church. No amount of 'this world's wisdom' will make it right. "professing themselves to be wise they became fools"
Someone earlier on this thread has hit the nail on the head, as it were. One CAN be seperated and holy and spiritual in their music. All this talk of tempo, beat, melody, rythme, etc doesn't amount to a hill of beans. The question is this...does the music you are espousing SOUND any different than what the world is blaring at us everywhere we go? Music is NOT benign. Music, as has been said, can tame the savage beast. One must be completely ignorant not to realize that the world's music is far indeed from soothing anything at all. One has mentioned that rap, rock, blues, country, etc, can be just as spiritual if done with good intent and good words. I say, HOGWASH! Since when does putting a tuxedo onto a pig make him a groom? He is still a pig. Just so with your music. There is power in music. You say there isn't? Didn't Jesus say that your "vain repititions" would not be heard? 7-11 songs edify nothing but the emotions and the flesh. I don't buy your reasonings at all.
When I got saved, I was in a Charismatic church which put great emphasis on these types of songs. (I left that fellowship when I learned more about their unbiblical babblings) But guess what? There is no church there now! The sheep have scattered! Now I do not presume to blame it all on the music, but, if you let a little bit of the world into your fellowship, you have leavened the whole lump.
Someone mentioned earings, or green hair or nose rings or baggy pants or whatever. Haven't you ever thought that just maybe folks would look at that and ponder to themselves..."Well if that is what church is about then I can get that anywhere." The same goes for your music. What do you really have to offer folks except just "churchy worldliness"? Where is the difference that they are seeking? How can you hope to offer them anything BETTER than what the world has to offer if you are no DIFFERENT?
My oh my! Look at this post! I have REALLY gotten onto a soap box haven't I? Sorry. Please forgive me for sounding unloving and unkind. As I have said. I am very passionate about this music thing.
When I was lost, music was a BIG thing in my life. Since then, rock has gotten even MORE filthy and abominable. Think about the origins of the styles of music you are letting into your church. I have. It makes me very sad indeed to see "professing" christians allowing this garbage.
av1611jim
BTW; a 7-11 song has 7 words and you repeat them 11 times!

[Personal attack deleted. Aaron]

[ September 01, 2002, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

I don't want to get involved in the debate over musical styles, but there is something i find bothersome. It sounds as though this pastor doesn't think that praising God is important.

"Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name." Psalm 100:4

i can see the point to having songs with a message, in fact, it seems that most hymns and other christian songs are speaking to other people about God. What is wrong with singing a song to God? How is praising our creator and saviour "too mindless" and "too simplistic"?

 

Hi avJim. Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your thoughts and thank you for sharing them. While I don’t agree with you, I do understand from where your thoughts come. I’m thankful that you have taken the time and effort to present your position.

Since I have already pointed out that "praise music" is something that comes from the “heart” and not from the vocal box, I will resist repeating myself. Perhaps you might let us know what type of music IS acceptable in your view? (i.e songs, artists, instruments).

You said; "One has mentioned that rap, rock, blues, country, etc, can be just as spiritual if done with good intent and good words. I say, HOGWASH!"

Why Hogwash? Are you saying that GOOD intent and GOOD words are hogwash? Or, are you saying it is hogwash ONLY because the person delivering the good intent and good words doesn’t “look” a certain way?

You said; "Someone mentioned earings, or green hair or nose rings or baggy pants or whatever. Haven't you ever thought that just maybe folks would look at that and ponder to themselves..."Well if that is what church is about then I can get that anywhere."

Well, John The Baptist certainly dressed and looked different than others (Matt. 3: 4). Did that have any bearing on his witness? I say NO! Many in the church of that day were aghast at the public appearance of Jesus (Matt. 11: 9, Luke 7: 34). Were they right? I say they were wrong. Lazarus certainly had a terrible public appearance. He was surely a sight to behold (Luke 16: 20). Yet, he was one of the LORD’s closest associates and he was absolutely saved. His public appearance meant NOTHING. His heart meant EVERYTHING.

The way a person “looks” or dresses has absolutely NO bearing on his (or our) salvation. We should rejoice when ANYONE shows an interest in the LORD – bleached green hair and all! The angels in heaven rejoice over such ones (Luke 15: 7, Luke 15: 10).

You said: All this talk of tempo, beat, melody, rythme, etc doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

It may not amount to a hill of beans Jim, but it certainly amounts to a hill of MUSIC and composition. ALL music is made up of tempo, beat, and melody – no matter how simple or complex the piece - ask any musicologist. How do you feel about LOUD NOISE in music? Is it acceptable? The Bible says it IS acceptable and is actually COMMANDED ((Psalm 33: 3, Psalm 98: 4)! Please give me your thoughts on LOUD NOISE in music.

Finally, there is nothing wrong with your getting on a soap box avJim. There is no need to apologize for that. You are making a valid point, one that is commonly held by many in the church (perhaps by most). You have every right to argue for what you believe. My post is even longer than yours!

latterrain77

[Hi, latterrain. Sorry to break in to your post. I had to delete your reference to a point that I deleted in another's post. Aaron.]

[ September 01, 2002, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

Maybe someone can answer this for me....some of you talk about "praising God"...what is wrong with praising God,you say-I say a hymn is a praise,a psalm is a praise...how are you differentiating between a "praise" song and anything else....? Everything we do and say that comes from a heart of thanksgiving is "praise". What is this *new* praise and worship thing all about? The church has always praised and worshipped God,why is this new movement called praise???? It is just a justifiable name for contemporary style. I praise God very deeply when I hear His word preached and sing 4 verses to a great hymn. THAT is praise.

Now does praise music only involve short,snappy,shallow choruses sung over and over again? Something is wrong with those ideas.

[ September 01, 2002, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: Molly ]

 

Thank you latterrain for your reply. Your's is a commonly held position today. Unfortunately you are comparing apples and oranges. How can you compare the appearence of John or Jesus with a punk who looks like a punk and a rebel? Must I remind you that rebellion is as witchcraft? So by inference are you saying that Jesus would condone the open rebellion that these styles reflect? I trow not! And just one more thing for you to think about. Let me preface the following with this disclaimer. Although I am not about to judge the heart of a person who comes to church looking like he just left a Motley Crue concert, I will question if he has ever met the Master if he NEVER changes! One need only reference the clear admonition of Paul in Romans 12:1-2 for the definitive standard to this whole thing. Music AND appearences apply here. "I beseech you therefore brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your BODIES a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not CONFORMED TO THIS WORLD: but be ye TRANSFORMED by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
(emphasis is mine) IN OTHER WORDS, WHEN YOUR MIND IS CHANGED YOUR BEHAVIOR AND APPEARENCE WILL ALSO. In light of the preceding, I can see no way out for you or your compadres. Either you have been TRANSFORMED from this world or you have not. This is a clear command from the pen of Paul and the halls of heaven. Is your mind renewed? If it is then why do you insist that worldly music styles are acceptable? You asked for a definition of what is acceptable but you failed to notice that I already gave you the criteria in a previous post. If it SOUNDS like the world, then it probably is OF the world.
I just thought of something else for you. You tried to compare the public appearenc of John and Jesus and Lazarus to the public appearences of multitudes of youth today. I would ask you then, considering that we are comparing 1st century life with 21st century life, would you also condone living in stone and mud houses? Or perhaps drinking from open wells daily for our water? Or perhaps eliminating electricity from our lives and using fire for our heat and lights?
The comparison of Jesus, John, and Lazarus to green hair and nose rings is not only unreal, it is ridiculous at best. Jesus was just a common looking man. That is why his appearence was offensive to many who were looking for A CONQUERING KING. These nose ringed, green haired, shabby looking kids are not common looking. There are no physical comparisons to 1st century life with 21st century life that I know of. (at least not with modern life, although you COULD compare some facets of 1st century with perhaps central Africa, but there again I doubt you would find green haired kids in sub-saharan Africa )It would seem that you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole here for "proof" of your position. This phenomenon we are talking about has its ROOTS in rebellion here in America and Western Europe. Need I remind you of the beat-niks of the 50's? Or shall we go a little further back to the flappers of the 20's?
But again, I must stress that when the rebellious of previous decades met the MASTER, they were CHANGED and never more embraced the style they once held to with such stubborness. And speaking of stubborness...doesn't the Bible also mention that attitude in a not so nice context as well?

av1611jim

 

What if it does both?

There are a lot of words to describe "denythetruth ministries" (one or two of them would even be allowed here on BaptistBoard) but "balanced" is not one of them.

We've already discussed them in several threads and have demonstrated why they are not to be trusted.

1. They take artists words out of context to make it appear that they've said something completely different than what they have.
That's just dishonest.

2. They quote mainstream artists who talk about getting into music for various worldy reasons, yet never quote Christian artists who say that they are in music to glorify God. That's stacking the deck and it's dishonest.

3. They promote urban legends and rumors as though they were fact and that takes a lot of credibility away from Christians when we try to adress these things seriously.

What's worse, they continue to promote them as truth even after they've been shown that they're not true. That's dishonest.

Among them, that the Eagles, Ozzy Osbourne, Jimmy Page and others are "Satanists", the artwork for "Hotel California" was shot at Anton Levay's Church of Satan where the members of the Eagles attend, and that Alice Cooper is a Satanist who got his name from the spirit of a, 18th century witch he contacted through a Ouija board.

All of these rumors have been debunked but they still spread them as though they were true.

4. They show a general lack of knowledge about the culture they're criticizing. That's not dishonest, but it is foolish.

5. They just can't get their facts straight.

One of my favorite examples is their condemnation of Petra for recording the KISS song, "God Gave Rock and Roll to You" but they never bother to tell you that Petra's version of the song was recorded years before KISS's version.

They're either nuts, liars or idiots. Either way, Christians who claim to know the Truth shouldn't be getting their information from someone who depends on lies to a case for their own goofy ideology.

Mike

[ September 02, 2002, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

Well said and worth saying.

 

Well said and worth saying.</font>[/QUOTE]Agreed.

 

If you're saying that the pastor must oversee the use of musical styles, then I would echo TomVols and Brett Valentine.

If, however, you're saying that the musical styles are outside the scope of his office, then I strongly disagree.

The way in which something is said is just as important as what is said. In fact it affects the message.

If I displayed your photo in a nice frame on my desk, then that's saying you're important to me. If, on the otherhand, I display the very same photo on my dartboard, that's saying something totally different. Same pic, different environment.

If I sing praises to God using non-carnal musical styles, then I am saying that God is spirit, and must be worshipped in truth and in spirit. If on the otherhand I use carnal styles, I am saying that God is no more than then teen-idols who delight in such displays.

 

Hi avJim. Thank you for your comments. It is much appreciated. I know that you are very sincere in what you have said and I appreciate your honesty.

However, you never did answer my question concerning LOUD NOISE in music (Psa. 33: 3, Psa. 98: 4). How do you feel about it? You also did not specifically respond to my question concerning your previous comments on “hogwash.” When you respond to these, I will be better able to respond to your new comments. Thanks again Jim! I sure appreciate your input on this subject of music in the church.

latterrain77

 

latterrain;
Thank you for your respectful reply.
As to your question about my comment, "HOGWASH".
You will find the answer in the same post to which you are referring. Had you read the entire section you would find that I clearly defined what I meant. You CANNOT put a tuxedo on a pig and expect it to change its nature. It will STILL be a pig. The same is true of your music style choices.
As to your question about what I think of LOUD noise. You are correct that LOUD does not necessarily connotate evil. However, the context of the passages you cite does not endorse the junk that is being passed off today as "christian".
If you will continue to read the 98th Psalm you will find that the noise referred to is defined. The Holy Spirit has given you what is meant by "noise". Singing, trumpets, coronets, roaring seas, floods, hills, etc. The EARTH will praise God with the "noise" of gladness when He comes to judge evil.
By contrast, the NOISE of distorted guitars, amplifiers, drums, and synthesizers supposedly praising God is no different than the "innocent" music of the world. We all know, (or at least should know) that the crazy chaos being passed of today for music has a tremendous influence on our youth. It did in my day and it did in my fathers day. Only God is GOOD. There is therefore good music and there is bad music. Don't you agree at least with this? For example, how can you say that the music of AC-DC is good? With titles like, HIGHWAY TO HELL how can one possibly say this is good music? Or as another example of music from MY youth, SABBATH BLOODY SABBATH comes to mind. How can you possibly say this piece of trash is good music? And before you jump the gun, let me remind you that we are talking about WORDS and MUSIC. John Lennon was tame in comparison to Led Zepplin but his piece of trash singing praise to LORD KRISHNA is just as evil. And SOME have had the audacity to rewrite the words to make is sound christian but I do not think the LORD GOD is fooled one iota with this bit of trickery. There are thousands more titles I could list from the "innocence" of my youth; which had you said it was evil before I was regenerated by the Blood of Jesus, I would have instantly shut you out. Music is harmless? I think not. Styles of music harmless? I think not. There is nothing wrong with using a guitar to praise God with. Have you listened to any of the Marhsall Family's music? CRIMSON RIVER is quite beautiful! It is some of the most beautiful music produced in this generation, and yet, none of it uses the styles of this world while still using some of its instruments. An instrument is not evil, HOW it is used IS. The error lies in trying to marry the world's music styles and methods with those of the church. And this has been my point all along. Does the piece of music you are attempting to get the church to accept SOUND like the world? If so, then it should not be in church. I think you know EXACTLY what I am getting at. I really believe you are an intelligent person, I really do. So why are you trying to justify what you know is wrong? I think you have the same Holy Spirit as I do. Therefore, would he tell one person something is good and another that the same something is evil? I don't think He would allow nor cause such conflict within His body. Does He not tell us to "Abstain from all appearence of evil"? I see no room in this command for justifying the use of what the worldlings clearly know is not of the church. Just before this command to abstain from all APPEARENCE of evil, He tells us to PROVE ALL THINGS and to hold fast to what is GOOD. Beware,lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of men, after the RUDIMENTS of the world and not after Christ. We are called to be sanctified. As you may know, sanctification is being SET APART FROM the world unto HOLY USE for God.
How can you take the thing which came from uncleaness and ungodliness and by saying some magic words of "praise" call it now clean? Do you know where this rock, punk, rap, hip-hop, jazz, country, blues, etc. comes from? Certainly not the church! Not the Blood bought Church of the living God anyway.
"Woe to him that calleth evil good and good evil". Sound familiar? Instruments are not evil. Again, I feel I must emphasize this point. The instrumnet is not evil, HOW IT IS USED is. And this INCLUDES the instrument of our vices.
Well there I go again! Sorry about the length of the post. I do tend to get long winded. But then again, I AM a preacher! I look forward to hearing again from you, my friend.
AV1611Jim

 

If the lyrics and music aren't Godly, it is Not to be sung, especially the lyrics. As far as choruses, where in a two or three word chorus does it speak of the mangnificence of God? Where in any NEW 2,3, or four word choruses does it state that we are sinners in need of salvation?

I am sorry, but repeating the words holy holy holy for 7 minutes over and over again does not contstitute a worship song. I have been to at LEAST 28 so-called churches in the past 10 years, either as a guest or member, and the ONLY hymns that got my attention were the hyms about the fact that I am unworthy, that I am a sinner in need of Jesus, that I NEED His salvation. These weren't some insipid, new-fangled 3 or 4 word repeated choruses, they had MANY verses that actually contained both rebuke towards the sinners and glorified the Lord. THOSE are proper praise and worship songs. Not like the hymns of today, with all of their feel-good-ism , their egocentric theme ( "I" this and "I" that). Praise and worship has nothing to do with US. REAL praise and worship songs convict us for our lowly stature and extol and bring to the frontlines the magnificance of God.

No, the "hymns" of today's age are nothing more than trite emotionalism wrapped in a candy-coated package suitable for all religions. We sure wouldn't want to offend a Catholic by singing a hymn that states we don't get to heaven by works. We sure wouldn't want to offend the MUSLIM by singing that Jesus Christ is the ONLY GOD! No. We really want to compromise God's Word and make it palatable for everyone so we can all "just get along". We seem to need something extra-biblical to make us feel comfortable. Obviously, the FACT that God's Word is sufficient isn't enough for us. We feel the need to re-write God's Word, 'cuz it is just too horrible a work to accept what is written. We, as christians, are pathetic. I guess we'll find out how it all ends up on judgment day, eh?:

 

If you're saying that the pastor must oversee the use of musical styles, then I would echo TomVols and Brett Valentine.

If, however, you're saying that the musical styles are outside the scope of his office, then I strongly disagree.

The way in which something is said is just as important as what is said. In fact it affects the message.

If I displayed your photo in a nice frame on my desk, then that's saying you're important to me. If, on the otherhand, I display the very same photo on my dartboard, that's saying something totally different. Same pic, different environment.

If I sing praises to God using non-carnal musical styles, then I am saying that God is spirit, and must be worshipped in truth and in spirit. If on the otherhand I use carnal styles, I am saying that God is no more than then teen-idols who delight in such displays.</font>[/QUOTE]No truer words have been spoken such as yours, brother!

 

Dear Jim,
I hope God blesses you many times over. A sound thinker, and what I consider a REAL man of God. God bless you!