why is this?

[nodak]

We seem to have 2 kinds of conservative preachers around here. The first kind I would describe as cultural warriors fighting sin tooth and nail, fighting falsehood the same way. They seem to have few converts and those that they win don't seem to have a true change in lifestyle.

The other type are not soft on sin or liberal by any means, but focus on preaching the truth about Jesus Christ. They seem to lead more to faith and when someone comes to faith under this Christ centered preaching you see lives changed.

In short, the opposite effect of what many Christian leaders seem to teach.

Why would this be??

 

[JamesL]

Because this "hard on sin" nonsense is the epitome of those who have fallen away from grace

They make converts in the flesh

 

[Van]

I liked your choice of "few." ...few are those who find the narrow path that leads to life...

 

[InTheLight]

Because this "hard on sin" nonsense is the epitome of those who have fallen away from grace

They make converts in the flesh

I wouldn't go so far to say they've fallen from grace. I would suggest that they are preaching a legalistic brand of Christianity. Therefore, people sitting under that teaching will be shallow Christians, attempting to keep a set of rules.

 

[nodak]

Van--wouldn't those "few" if they really found the narrow path have changed lives?

Let me be clearer: those preachers here who might be called "sin fighters" are not only not seeing a lot profess Christ, they are not seeing sin defeated in the lives of those under their preaching.

Those not sugar coating sin at all, but making the focus of their ministry forth telling the truth about Christ ARE seeing more rank sinners profess Christ, AND those converts DO have changed lives and walk away from sin.

So the question is why are the sin fighters losing the war, and those simply proclaiming the full truth of Jesus winning?

 

[JamesL]

Van--wouldn't those "few" if they really found the narrow path have changed lives?

... not seeing sin defeated in the lives of those under their preaching.

... those converts DO have changed lives and walk away from sin.

So the question is why are the sin fighters losing the war, and those simply proclaiming the full truth of Jesus winning?

In fairness, if our focus is on seeing "changed lives" (a non-biblical cliché, btw) and we relegate this change to behavior, we're going to see a lot of people hiding their faults and failures.

If better behavior is THE evidence of saving faith, then people will fabricate a façade of better behavior in order to garner a bit of assurance.

Just like when people teach that speaking in tongues is THE evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. People want assurance that God is with them, so they fabricate a bunch of gibberish and call it tongues.

Some plant the seed, some water the seed, and God makes it grow.


Focusing on behavior is but one more manifestation of walking in the flesh

 

[nodak]

Well, I would say if a lost person gets drunk every Saturday and cheats on his wife and brags about it all over town, and then professes Christ, I would expect a true conversion would mean he would either quit doing that junk or at least abhor it and wish he could stop. If he is still bragging about it, I must admit I would doubt his salvation.

What I find fascinating is that the pastors preaching Jesus rather than fighting sin seem naturally to produce folks who at least try or want to sin less after professing Christ, but the pastors preaching focused on fighting sin seem to be producing "believers" who have no desire to change.

All of which has me wondering if we are losing our message of Jesus in favor of trying to save the culture.

 

[Revmitchell]

We can stand against sin and preach Jesus at the same time. It is not an either or scenario. Only liberal logic would come to such a conclusion.

 

[righteousdude2]

I liked your choice of "few." ...few are those who find the narrow path that leads to life...

And wide is the path who insist on having their ears tickled.

 

[gb93433]

Preaching on sin only reveals sin. Preaching on Jesus shows the to way to salvation and the life we should be living as God wants. The pagans know something about sin. They have sacrifice for what they see as sin in their cultures. We can preach about what we see as the dos and don'ts and that is just a legalistic approach to scripture. That is exactly what the Pharisees did during the time of Jesus. They completely ignored the spirit in which God gave scripture and added their own rules. They kept adding to the written word in the oral Torah as though it were the written word of God. If we add to scripture with our opinions we are doing the very same thing the Pharisees did.

 

[nodak]

RevMitchell, I have said nothing using liberal logic. Quit being so offensive or kindly avoid this thread.

I'm not saying either kind of our CONSERVATIVE preachers here are tickling anybody's ears, or avoiding calling sin sin.

Type one is very Biblical and not at all shy at saying just exactly what is sin. And then they focus their preaching on Jesus and what He did and does.

Type two is very Biblical also on what is sin. But they focus on "I'm going to bring down the gay agenda" or "We need to bring down the gambling industry" or "Let's focus on ending abortion." They never seem to get around to preaching Jesus.

Let me be clear: I'm all for seeing the gay agenda brought down, stopping gambling, and very very very much for ending abortion.

There seem to be two schools of thought: one is that the focus should be on cleaning up society through political means and social pressure. The other is that society most definitely needs cleaning up, but that the way to do so is through the conversion of the lost with the fervent belief salvation produces fruit in the lives of believers.

One seems to think we must clean up society, then get folks saved after that. The other seems to think if folks get saved it will result in society getting cleaned up.

I'm wondering if we are trying to do in the flesh what only the Holy Spirit can do?

 

[Van]

Van--wouldn't those "few" if they really found the narrow path have changed lives?

Let me be clearer: those preachers here who might be called "sin fighters" are not only not seeing a lot profess Christ, they are not seeing sin defeated in the lives of those under their preaching.

Those not sugar coating sin at all, but making the focus of their ministry forth telling the truth about Christ ARE seeing more rank sinners profess Christ, AND those converts DO have changed lives and walk away from sin.

So the question is why are the sin fighters losing the war, and those simply proclaiming the full truth of Jesus winning?

I am not sure I understand your point. Yes, I believe if a professing believer is actually born anew, they will see the change in their lives. And many if not most times, that change will result in fruits we can all see. OTOH, if a person cannot provide testimony of a changed life, it is a red flag to me. Only God knows for sure, but I would continue to witness to those who honestly do not see a change in their lives.

And I am one of those who believe preachers should feed the sheep, not beat the sheep.

 

[gb93433]

One seems to think we must clean up society, then get folks saved after that. The other seems to think if folks get saved it will result in society getting cleaned up.

What kind of people are not in the church? Everything that is present in the world is also present in the church. So the church is going to clean up the world when it is dirty? I always thought the job of cleaning was God's and it is us who must respond.

 

[Servent]

Simple, people don't want there sins shoved down there throat, but when they see Jesus for who He is and how He can really change there lives. He will

 

[gb93433]

Simple, people don't want there sins shoved down there throat, but when they see Jesus for who He is and how He can really change there lives. He will

I am convinced that is not always true because of what we know about Judas' response to Jesus. The demons believe and shudder too.

 

[Servent]

I am convinced that is not always true because of what we know about Judas' response to Jesus. The demons believe and shudder too.

Yes they do, they also know who Jesus is that's why they shutter.
Please tell me one person you know that is not a Christian that likes there sins being pointed out to them.

 

[gb93433]

Please tell me one person you know that is not a Christian that likes there sins being pointed out to them.

That is hard for most Christians.

I have known three men for over 40 years and I trust what they say partly because all of us are making disciples and have been in the battle for a long time. I know them well and they are my friends.

I like what Spurgeon said about evangelism in that it was just one beggar telling another where to get bread.

 

[Iconoclast]

Servent;

Please tell me one person you know that is not a Christian that likes there sins being pointed out to them

.

Do you believe it was wrong for John the Baptist to identify sin here?

3 For Herod had laid hold on John, and bound him, and put him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife.

4 For John said unto him, It is not lawful for thee to have her

Was it wrong for the OT prophets to declare the sins of the people?

1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the Lord hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.

4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.

8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

 

[Iconoclast]

nodak

There seem to be two schools of thought: one is that the focus should be on cleaning up society through political means and social pressure. The other is that society most definitely needs cleaning up, but that the way to do so is through the conversion of the lost with the fervent belief salvation produces fruit in the lives of believers.

This is the basic thrust of postmillennialism...as the gospel and Kingdom spread worldwide, things improve by necessity.

One seems to think we must clean up society, then get folks saved after that. The other seems to think if folks get saved it will result in society getting cleaned up.

Postmill again...that is what many of the puritans sought after.

I'm wondering if we are trying to do in the flesh what only the Holy Spirit can do?

That is why we must understand the new birth and the current Kingdom reign of Jesus Christ in the midst of His enemies.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Servent]

Servent;

.

Do you believe it was wrong for John the Baptist to identify sin here?

3 For Herod had laid hold on John, and bound him, and put him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife.

4 For John said unto him, It is not lawful for thee to have her

Was it wrong for the OT prophets to declare the sins of the people?

1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the Lord hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.

4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.

8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

No I do not believe it was wrong, and I am not saying it is wrong now, and I do NOT believe we should water down the gospel, I DO believe people need to understand they are sinners and need to repent and turn to Christ alone. I still do not know anyone christian or not that likes having there sins shoved down there throat the way some preach do. There is a right time and a right place for all types of preaching.