you should let people know about you stance regarding this issue, the unfortunate aspect of this posting board is that those who post and that are clearly not Christian leaves those who are at a disadvantage, as it is implyed that all who post here are Christian baptist. at least if you straight forward let people know where you stand then either moderators can ban you or Christians can respond in a direct mannor.
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why many religious people will go to hell
- Thread starter massdak
- Start date
Charles Meadows
New Member
Massdak,
That last post makes absolutely no sense at all.
And there are many churches (albeit liberal ones) within the American Baptist tradition which do not see monogamous homosexuality as sinful. I don't agree with them - but that doesn't preclude them from posting on a "Baptist" board. They probably shouldn't post in the Fundamental Baptist Forum...
That last post makes absolutely no sense at all.
And there are many churches (albeit liberal ones) within the American Baptist tradition which do not see monogamous homosexuality as sinful. I don't agree with them - but that doesn't preclude them from posting on a "Baptist" board. They probably shouldn't post in the Fundamental Baptist Forum...
GeneMBridges
New Member
you should let people know about you stance regarding this issue, the unfortunate aspect of this posting board is that those who post and that are clearly not Christian leaves those who are at a disadvantage, as it is implyed that all who post here are Christian baptist. at least if you straight forward let people know where you stand then either moderators can ban you or Christians can respond in a direct mannor. </font>[/QUOTE]No, Simply Bee does not "need" to do that at all. He is simply making some observations and letting others draw their own conclusions. In so so doing, he is, how shall I say, proving Machiavelli to be quite correct. Christians here are responding here quite directly, in my personal opinion. Not only that, if he was to state his opinion or position outright, I know from personal experience with members of this board that his words would be made to say things they did not actually say and do not actually believe. I seem to recall several rounds with you, yourself, a few months ago that, even when posting information from ExGay Ministries themselves that did not support your own position on this issue, you continually accused me of "excusing" sin, when that simply was not true. That was your opinion, but it was not an accurate one by any stretch of the imagination.
As for moderators banning him, why should that be the case? He's not attacked anybody's character. He's not used perjorative language. He's not sat in judgment of another's salvation. He's simply raised some concerns in response to your original post. If he's Baptist and a Christian then there is no need to abridge his ability to articulate his views unless he begins attacking others, et.al. To even suggest that smacks of a "silence those with whom we disagree" attitude, that really has no place in a free society.
I like Simply Bee's style. I disagree with him on some things. I agree with him on others, from what I can tell. One thing is for sure, for any one of us to sit in judgement on the salvation of another is to put ourselves in God's place, and that is truly an intolerable place to set ourselves. None of us knows the heart of another. None of us knows the place or the struggles going on within the minds of others. There are plenty of us Christians now steeped so high in sin that any one of us might look down our noses and say that person can not possibly be saved, yet years from now find out that at the time we met them they were terribly backslidden. Likewise, we may all find ourselves terribly surprised when we sit at the Lord's Table in heaven for that first family meal and find out that some of us that we thought would be there with us are not and others we thought from a chance encounter on the internet would never be there are sitting right next to us.
I think some of the questions that the responses here raise bear addressing. For example, the term "gay lifestyle" has been used a few times. What exactly is "the gay lifestlyle?" Is a person who is gay but is not in a relationship with a person of the same sex living "the gay lifestyle?" Are they only guilty of homosexual sin if/when they have sex is it merely enough to possess homosexual feelings or same sex attractions to be living "the gay lifestyle." Is the mere possession of such feelings enough to discount a person's salvation, if you feel that homosexuals can't also be Christian? What exactly constitutes a person who is a "practicing homosexual?" We throw these terms around glibly, yet we don't really define them. It's as if there's this general idea, but is that idea really accurate?
Now, unfortunately, I can't go any further with this thread as I've got Frances and her refugees to begin dealing with tomorrow. I took a long hiatus from this board for the summer after posting at great length about these very issues no less. My own thoughts and feelings have been articulated. However, since I'm not going to be here to articulate them again, likely for quite some time unfortunately, I leave the above questions to ponder. I already have my opinions about the matter. I leave the above for you all to pontificate upon, perhaps in another thread.
Take Care,
God Bless you my friends;
Simply Bee, "You're welcome."
Gene
To repeat, sin is sin.
But the sin is not the source of God's condemnation...
John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
The condemnation is if we love our sin and continue to walk in it.
To call oneself a Christian and even attend church is not necessarily walking in the light.
If we are committing sin and calling it by a different name then as the Scripture says...
1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
HankD
But the sin is not the source of God's condemnation...
John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
The condemnation is if we love our sin and continue to walk in it.
To call oneself a Christian and even attend church is not necessarily walking in the light.
If we are committing sin and calling it by a different name then as the Scripture says...
1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
HankD
Charles Meadows
New Member
Massdak,
"no one is lamblasting or being uncaring..."
NO! That's just the point! Several posters are doing just this. It's easy to talk the talk biblically. "If you believe this then you're going to Hell..."
If you notice Christ walked the walk! What would Jesus say to one wrestling with homosexual temptations? He wouldn't condone the sin. But I think He's show the same love that He showed to the adulterous woman or the thief on the cross.
I'm frankly ashamed that so many our our number (Christians) bear no resemblance to Christ at all!!!!
"no one is lamblasting or being uncaring..."
NO! That's just the point! Several posters are doing just this. It's easy to talk the talk biblically. "If you believe this then you're going to Hell..."
If you notice Christ walked the walk! What would Jesus say to one wrestling with homosexual temptations? He wouldn't condone the sin. But I think He's show the same love that He showed to the adulterous woman or the thief on the cross.
I'm frankly ashamed that so many our our number (Christians) bear no resemblance to Christ at all!!!!
The following statement from this post illustrates how I got the idea. (Although I am willing to cite examples from your initial post if you wish).
You didn't say that the fact that I have a sin weakness in the area of homosexuality. You said "I am gay". That declaration implies no repentance but rather indifference if not defiance toward God's moral law.
I don't want to offend nor hurt you in any way. In fact, the only loving thing I know to do is to warn you of God's standard and hope that you will heed it.
I am sure you have rationalized over this issue... but in the end, if you are truly born again, it can only come back to what God has said that He expects concerning sex and sexuality. He ordained sex within the marriage of a man and woman and excludes all other sexual activity including homosexual activity.
Homosexuality is addressed generally in commands against fornication as well as specifically in several passages. So whether it is wrong or not isn't something that has to be "struggled with", rationalized, or proven. The struggle should be to gain the victory over that sin.
I will pray for you to that end.
Paul of Eugene
New Member
Scott, you can't possibly know that from just the simple statement "I am gay". These words might mean one is tempted but resisting; or it might mean one has regular homosexual affairs; but you have judged your brother on insufficient evidence.
D
DavidsAngel
Guest
I have to agree with Paul, You have no evidence he is doing wrong. Just because he brings up a subject which you disagree so severly with. It dosen't mean that he is what you think. The fact that he decided NOT to say wether he was or not seems to be a brave and bold step made by him. He dosen't want to be excused or judged, he's quite happy letting you think what you will of him. I find that quite brave.
Afterall how many of us would stand up and say THIS IS MY SIN! I've done it i'm sorry i've taken it to God. None of us would shout out what we've done wrong to the heavens and he made a statement which flared a huge debate, at the center of which is Homosexuality.
Ok folkes, homosexuality has been around for ages, it was encoraged by the Greek in such wonderful cities of Athens and Especially Sparta. Here Homosexuality was encoraged. By both men and woman.
Your kidding yourselves if you think that this is a new trend. It's been going on as long as time itself. While it is a sin, it's not new. You all act as if it's just now gaining popularty. What's gaining popularity is basically they are saying "We want to have realtionships", they want to be monogamist. Long gone are the Days of bathouses and other ways.
While I do not agree with Homosexuality, I choose not to be afraid of it. I don't agree with a lot of things other people do. That is my right to agree or disagree. But, I do not down my brother in Christ because of his or her sin. That is not my place to do so. I can tell him sure in a CHRISTIAN and loving way . I can ask that he not being his mate around me or my children. But, what he does behind his own doors is between him, and God. Or, even between Her and God. We do NOT have the right to invade our brothers and sisters private lives simply cause we do not agree with what might or might not be going on behind those doors.
Now this is my longwinded reply. Basically it's tell him that it's a sin, don't shove it down his throat and then let the LORD deal with it. He never said what he acutally was so let him lead his life. He will have to answer for ir not you. That has been my point all along. When your up in heaven in front of everyone. Whould you want your maker to ask why you stepped in HIS place to judge someone? I sure wouldn't. And, I know that it's going to upset some people what i've written and you know that's ok that's your right. You can write back as much as you feel necessary, but I'll tell you, your not going to change my mind. You can spout off all that you please. You can think i'm nuts and going to hell. That's fine. I know where my salvation lies. I'm mearly trying to stop the circle of hate that Satan has started in this thread and make everyone understand, Love is the only way to judge someone correctly. Love them, pray thier eyes are opened, care enough to put them in your prayers as feverishly as you post against them. It's a lot easier to hate what you do not understand, than it is to pray that you do understand, and that the person sinning wakes up and understand what he or she is doing.
Ok enough of the lecture Have a wonderful Evening
YOUR sister in Christ,
Wendy
Afterall how many of us would stand up and say THIS IS MY SIN! I've done it i'm sorry i've taken it to God. None of us would shout out what we've done wrong to the heavens and he made a statement which flared a huge debate, at the center of which is Homosexuality.
Ok folkes, homosexuality has been around for ages, it was encoraged by the Greek in such wonderful cities of Athens and Especially Sparta. Here Homosexuality was encoraged. By both men and woman.
Your kidding yourselves if you think that this is a new trend. It's been going on as long as time itself. While it is a sin, it's not new. You all act as if it's just now gaining popularty. What's gaining popularity is basically they are saying "We want to have realtionships", they want to be monogamist. Long gone are the Days of bathouses and other ways.
While I do not agree with Homosexuality, I choose not to be afraid of it. I don't agree with a lot of things other people do. That is my right to agree or disagree. But, I do not down my brother in Christ because of his or her sin. That is not my place to do so. I can tell him sure in a CHRISTIAN and loving way . I can ask that he not being his mate around me or my children. But, what he does behind his own doors is between him, and God. Or, even between Her and God. We do NOT have the right to invade our brothers and sisters private lives simply cause we do not agree with what might or might not be going on behind those doors.
Now this is my longwinded reply. Basically it's tell him that it's a sin, don't shove it down his throat and then let the LORD deal with it. He never said what he acutally was so let him lead his life. He will have to answer for ir not you. That has been my point all along. When your up in heaven in front of everyone. Whould you want your maker to ask why you stepped in HIS place to judge someone? I sure wouldn't. And, I know that it's going to upset some people what i've written and you know that's ok that's your right. You can write back as much as you feel necessary, but I'll tell you, your not going to change my mind. You can spout off all that you please. You can think i'm nuts and going to hell. That's fine. I know where my salvation lies. I'm mearly trying to stop the circle of hate that Satan has started in this thread and make everyone understand, Love is the only way to judge someone correctly. Love them, pray thier eyes are opened, care enough to put them in your prayers as feverishly as you post against them. It's a lot easier to hate what you do not understand, than it is to pray that you do understand, and that the person sinning wakes up and understand what he or she is doing.
Ok enough of the lecture Have a wonderful Evening
YOUR sister in Christ,
Wendy
Daniel David
New Member
Ken, apparently ignorance is a virtue. Your lousy attempt at lumping me in with antinomianism only eclipses your ignorance of the issue of law and grace. The 10 commandments have no reign over the believer. A rejection of the 10 commandments isn't a rejection of righteousness. I wouldn't expect you to know that though. You are still busy fighting the civil war (which you lost by the way - severly).Originally posted by KenH:
Gene,
Daniel David is pretty much a thorn in the side of any substantive discussion that he interjects himself into on this board.
Thank you for your well reasoned retort to him.
Gene, your higher ground approach didn't deal with any of the issues. Please note that in this thing known as the New Testament, you have people being called very specific, derogatory names because of what they are (vipers, dogs, etc). I wonder if I used those names if you would feel the need to drop this psuedo-holiness on me.
Just stick with the issues guys. It isn't that hard.
Charles Meadows
New Member
Bro DD,
I don't think his point was to accuse you of being antinomian. Rather I think he was chiding you for your mean-spirited posting style. Jesus did use the term "vipers" - and whom did He call vipers? The sinners who sought His mercy? The meek-hearted? No it was the haughty religious leaders who talked a holy game but treated their fellow men like dirt. In all seriousness you should try to be a little less caustic.
I don't think his point was to accuse you of being antinomian. Rather I think he was chiding you for your mean-spirited posting style. Jesus did use the term "vipers" - and whom did He call vipers? The sinners who sought His mercy? The meek-hearted? No it was the haughty religious leaders who talked a holy game but treated their fellow men like dirt. In all seriousness you should try to be a little less caustic.
GeneMBridges
New Member
GeneMBridges
New Member
Ken, apparently ignorance is a virtue. Your lousy attempt at lumping me in with antinomianism only eclipses your ignorance of the issue of law and grace. The 10 commandments have no reign over the believer. A rejection of the 10 commandments isn't a rejection of righteousness. I wouldn't expect you to know that though. You are still busy fighting the civil war (which you lost by the way - severly).Originally posted by Daniel David:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by KenH:
Gene,
Daniel David is pretty much a thorn in the side of any substantive discussion that he interjects himself into on this board.
Thank you for your well reasoned retort to him.
Gene, your higher ground approach didn't deal with any of the issues. Please note that in this thing known as the New Testament, you have people being called very specific, derogatory names because of what they are (vipers, dogs, etc). I wonder if I used those names if you would feel the need to drop this psuedo-holiness on me.
Just stick with the issues guys. It isn't that hard. </font>[/QUOTE]So, what you're saying is that you feel completely comfortable calling blacks "snipped" and "boys" as well as using other derogatory terms of Jews and hispanics? That's the issue I have with you Daniel David. All I ask is that you realize that to the homosexual, the term "snipped" is no different, even if you feel that they have no relationship with God. I don't see Jesus calling a lost black man a "snipped" that deserves to go to hell or any other such term. (Note to moderator and any lurkers: Done of sake of hyperbole to make a point.)
Is it too much to ask that we simply refrain from using such derogatory language so flippanty? Rather than excusing ourselves using the New Testament, why not use proper English to begin with, since there are, in fact, other terms such as simply tying the letters "exuals" after the letters "snipped." Six more keystrokes on the keyboard don't seem that difficult.
[ September 05, 2004, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]
Marcia
Active Member
We should not "down" someone maybe, but we are to respond when someone calling themselves a Christian does or teaches something openly that God declares a sin, is to be judged by other believers, according to God's word (not harshly but fairly and according to God's word).
I have just read this whole thread, post by post. I think there are several issues here and there is also confusion. SimplyBee has not made his (or her) stance clear and that makes it hard for me personally to respond to his/her posts.
If SimplyBee claims to be a believer but also claims that practicing homosexuality is acceptable or is not a sin, then we are clearly told in God's word that we cannot accept this. In fact, in 1 Cor 5, Paul tells the Corinthian church they must put out the brother who is sinning with his father's wife because he is not repenting. Paul then says this:
[The all caps are not mine but are that way in the NASB]. If SimplyBee claims that he/she is homosexual but recognizes that practicing homosexuality is a sin but he/she is not practicing it, that is another issue, imo. But we don't know the situation since SimplyBee has not told us.
If SimplyBee is not a believer, then that is yet another issue. However, SimplyBee has claimed to be a Christian. Therefore, my question to Simply Bee is:
Do you believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin?
This question does not invade privacy but is asked merely to clear up what is being said. I do not endorse name calling or treating anyone coldly. But SimplyBee, if you are claiming to be a Christian and at the same say homosexuality is not a sin, then we believers are mandated by scripture to respond to that according to scripture, by showing you that is against God's word.
Terry_Herrington
New Member
You could not be farther from the truth. Being "black" is not a sin; being a pervert is.
[ September 05, 2004, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]
D
DavidsAngel
Guest
Marcia that is exactly my point. He has never said if he was or not so it's not our place to down or do anything else. That long winded post of mine was in response to all the other posts of people jumping the guns without all the facts. Trying to remind them they shouldn't
thank you your post was very thoughtful and precise.
Charles Meadows
New Member
Terry,
Gene is right on. It's horrible to try to justify meanness with the scriptures. Whether or not a person is a straight, a celibate homosexual or a practicing homosexual he/she is a child of God and worthy of kindness. Do you really think Jesus would have called them "snipped" or "snipped"? I think not!! He'd have shown them the same kindness that He showed to the adulterous woman. Kindness doesn't mean approval of sin - it just means treating each person as a child of God.
[ September 05, 2004, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]
Gene is right on. It's horrible to try to justify meanness with the scriptures. Whether or not a person is a straight, a celibate homosexual or a practicing homosexual he/she is a child of God and worthy of kindness. Do you really think Jesus would have called them "snipped" or "snipped"? I think not!! He'd have shown them the same kindness that He showed to the adulterous woman. Kindness doesn't mean approval of sin - it just means treating each person as a child of God.
[ September 05, 2004, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
I am not going to try and answr all of the posts. However, it bothers me that homosexulity, in many Chrisitians minds, in now an "acceptable" sin. I don't think "I was born that way" justifies any sin - If we go back to SimplyBee's statment and replace that sin with others what do we get?
"I am a Christian murderer"
"I am a Christian alcoholic"
"I am a Christian liar"
"I am a Chrsitian pedophile"
"I am a Christian drug addict"
"I am a Christian wife beater"
"I am a Christian blasphemer"
"I am a Christian ..."
Well,you get the point. SimpleBee should not be attacked or hated for his sin, but the sin CANNOT be condoned or escused simply because he was "born that way" either. I was born to be a liar, does that excuse that sin?
"I am a Christian murderer"
"I am a Christian alcoholic"
"I am a Christian liar"
"I am a Chrsitian pedophile"
"I am a Christian drug addict"
"I am a Christian wife beater"
"I am a Christian blasphemer"
"I am a Christian ..."
Well,you get the point. SimpleBee should not be attacked or hated for his sin, but the sin CANNOT be condoned or escused simply because he was "born that way" either. I was born to be a liar, does that excuse that sin?
Charles Meadows
New Member
C4K,
I don't think anyone here condones THAT sin. And SimplyBee has not stipulated that he even has committed it.
I don't think anyone here condones THAT sin. And SimplyBee has not stipulated that he even has committed it.
Terry_Herrington
New Member
A Sodomite is not a child of God. They are under God's condemnation and on their way to hell unless they repent of this perverted lifestyle.
Yes!
[ September 05, 2004, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]