Why must it be either or?

[taisto]

A poster stated:
"God is either just OR He predestined everything that happens. It cannot be both."

Why can't God both control each particle in His creation and be just at the same time?

The God of Justice:
Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock; his deeds are perfect. Everything he does is just and fair. He is a faithful God who does no wrong; how just and upright he is!
Psalm 11:7
For the righteous Lord loves justice. The virtuous will see his face.

The God of Sovereign Control:
Psalm 95:3-7
For the Lord is a great God, a great King above all gods. He holds in his hands the depths of the earth and the mightiest mountains. The sea belongs to him, for he made it. His hands formed the dry land, too. Come, let us worship and bow down. Let us kneel before the Lord our maker, for he is our God. We are the people he watches over, the flock under his care. If only you would listen to his voice today!
Daniel 4:35
All the people of the earth are nothing compared to him. He does as he pleases among the angels of heaven and among the people of the earth. No one can stop him or say to him, ‘What do you mean by doing these things?’
Acts 2:23-24
But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed. With the help of lawless Gentiles, you nailed him to a cross and killed him. But God released him from the horrors of death and raised him back to life, for death could not keep him in its grip.
Ephesians 1:11
Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.
Romans 9:21
When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?
Isaiah 14:24
The Lord of Heaven’s Armies has sworn this oath: “It will all happen as I have planned. It will be as I have decided.

God is both entirely just and entirely in control. There is no contradiction or problem with this as scripture clearly teaches both are true.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Genesis 50:20. "But as for me, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive."

 

[Piper]

Genesis 50:20. "But as for me, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive."

Wait, are you saying that God can be absolutely sovereign, even over evil? *wink*

 

[Van]

Why must two mutually exclusive views be either or? The term used for those thinking "outside the box" of reason is "cognitive dissonance.

What does it mean to say God controls whatsoever comes to pass? Does it mean God causes whatsoever comes to pass. If so then that view says God is the author of sin. Does it mean God either causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass, which then "allows" that God is not the author of sin.

The efforts of small minded people put God in their box, with God behaving as these small minded people envision, sprang from the dark ages, with speculation rather than study dictating the results.

 

[JonC]

A poster stated:
"God is either just OR He predestined everything that happens. It cannot be both."

Why can't God both control each particle in His creation and be just at the same time?

The God of Justice:
Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock; his deeds are perfect. Everything he does is just and fair. He is a faithful God who does no wrong; how just and upright he is!
Psalm 11:7
For the righteous Lord loves justice. The virtuous will see his face.

The God of Sovereign Control:
Psalm 95:3-7
For the Lord is a great God, a great King above all gods. He holds in his hands the depths of the earth and the mightiest mountains. The sea belongs to him, for he made it. His hands formed the dry land, too. Come, let us worship and bow down. Let us kneel before the Lord our maker, for he is our God. We are the people he watches over, the flock under his care. If only you would listen to his voice today!
Daniel 4:35
All the people of the earth are nothing compared to him. He does as he pleases among the angels of heaven and among the people of the earth. No one can stop him or say to him, ‘What do you mean by doing these things?’
Acts 2:23-24
But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed. With the help of lawless Gentiles, you nailed him to a cross and killed him. But God released him from the horrors of death and raised him back to life, for death could not keep him in its grip.
Ephesians 1:11
Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.
Romans 9:21
When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?
Isaiah 14:24
The Lord of Heaven’s Armies has sworn this oath: “It will all happen as I have planned. It will be as I have decided.

God is both entirely just and entirely in control. There is no contradiction or problem with this as scripture clearly teaches both are true.

The problem is a human problem (not one with God).

If God is in control (and He is) then how can God not be the Author of sin and evil (we know that He is not).

Some take this to mean that God indeed is the Author of sin and evil (as has been stated in this board in the past).

Others take this to be that God is not in control.


There is a difference in how people view words like predestined and ordained. There is a difference between predestined and decreed.

For example, Reformation Arminianism (I do not hold this position....bty) views "decreed" as saying such and such will occur while they view "ordained" as such and such occurring is within God's plan (God uses it as a cog in His work ).


Jonathan Edwards made an interesting argument in "Freedom on the Will", that if God is omniscient then all is predestined regardless of whether decreed or ordained.


But we want to separate and prioritize God's attributes. If omniscience then God is not sovereign....or if based on decree then God is the Author of evil.

Try that in your life. Separate your attributes, attributes of your nature, and use one and not the other. It simply does not work.

God is God. One attribute of God is not greater than the other because that would mean God has a hierarchy of qualities (one inferior to the other).

 

[tyndale1946]

A poster stated:
"God is either just OR He predestined everything that happens. It cannot be both."

Why can't God both control each particle in His creation and be just at the same time?

The God of Justice:
Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock; his deeds are perfect. Everything he does is just and fair. He is a faithful God who does no wrong; how just and upright he is!
Psalm 11:7
For the righteous Lord loves justice. The virtuous will see his face.

The God of Sovereign Control:
Psalm 95:3-7
For the Lord is a great God, a great King above all gods. He holds in his hands the depths of the earth and the mightiest mountains. The sea belongs to him, for he made it. His hands formed the dry land, too. Come, let us worship and bow down. Let us kneel before the Lord our maker, for he is our God. We are the people he watches over, the flock under his care. If only you would listen to his voice today!
Daniel 4:35
All the people of the earth are nothing compared to him. He does as he pleases among the angels of heaven and among the people of the earth. No one can stop him or say to him, ‘What do you mean by doing these things?’
Acts 2:23-24
But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed. With the help of lawless Gentiles, you nailed him to a cross and killed him. But God released him from the horrors of death and raised him back to life, for death could not keep him in its grip.
Ephesians 1:11
Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.
Romans 9:21
When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?
Isaiah 14:24
The Lord of Heaven’s Armies has sworn this oath: “It will all happen as I have planned. It will be as I have decided.

God is both entirely just and entirely in control. There is no contradiction or problem with this as scripture clearly teaches both are true.

And its not... God does not predestinate all things, if he does then explain the following scripture, pre means before, destinate means destination and applies to his elect people... The non-elect?... He leaves them in their sins where they are, they don't belong to him... Brother Glen

Jeremiah 19: 5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

 

[taisto]

And its not... God does not predestinate all things, if he does then explain the following scripture, pre means before, destinate means destination and applies to his elect people... The non-elect?... He leaves them in their sins where they are, they don't belong to him... Brother Glen

Jeremiah 19: 5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

God explains it for you.

But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved. Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.
(Romans 1:18-32)