Why not use grapejuice?

DHK,

God created you knowing full well that you would sin. Using your logic, God could not have created you, for God would not do anything or make anything that could then be misused.

 

Thank-you for the Chemistry review--the statement, "alcohol is not leaven" still is true. I thought the leaven added to make wine is to speed up the process which already takes place naturally--going from sweet to bitter.

I seem to be having difficulty with the symbolism of the sweetness of the cup which grapejuice would symbolize and the bitterness of the cup which a wine would symbolize. Seems to me wine would be a better picture of the Lord's cup.

Also seems ridiculous that someone would try to maintain grapejuice before modern means of preservation made such a feat possible.

"Be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess..." is not talking about grape juice.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

interesting discussion

 

Yeast is leaven no matter which way you look at it. Need I give you dictionary definitions of that too? Or can you ask your wife, a dictionary or an encyclopedia? Yeast = leaven.
Alcohol, as a rule is made from leaven. You cannot get away from that fact. It is a leavening process, a corrupting process. Basically, wine is nothing more than corrupted defiled grape juice. What an awful symbol to portay the Lord's blood--something the Saviour would never do in the Last Supper, not in the making of "new wine" or grape juice. Contest is everything.

I don't know what your problem is here. You sound either very condescending or very naive. I am not sure which. But the attitude bothers me.

Yes of course it means that. I never denied that. Either does any four year old child. So what is your problem in bringing this up. Either you are very condescending treating me as a four year old, or very naive treating yourself as a four year old. Which is it?
Fermented wine makes one drunk. There is no great revelation in that. The problem you seem to have is reconciling the fact the "oinos" and "yayin" have two different meanings--fermented wine, or unfermendted wine (grape juice), both of which can only be determined by its context, not by your preconceived ideas. The people at the wedding of Cana did not get drunk on grape juice did they? The people taking the Lord's supper did not get drunk on grape juice did they. Please do a study on how the Hebrews partook of their paschal feast, the observance of the passover lamb, and see how many cups of "wine" they took. If it was wine as we consume it, every one of them would be drunk by the time the service would be over--no questions asked. It would be impossible for that "wine" to be fermented.
Must you force the English word wine to mean fermented wine to mean fermented wine just because it does today. It didn't mean that in the first centuty (all the time). Only some of the time. Consult a good lexicon. Read a good source on the subject. Alcohol is made from yeast which in the bible is yeast. It is a corrupting agent symbolizing sin. That one point alone throws all your arguments out of kilter.
DHK

 

Are you questioning God? God looked down on his creation and saw what he had down, and pronounced everything (not simply good), but very good). God is infallible. He makes no mistake. He made a perfect creation in which there was no sin. Our Creator at the wedding of Cana created grape juice from water. In him there is no sin. He does not create sin, nor is the author of sin. He did not create corruption. He created a perfect juice which would have had a perfect taste. No wonder it tasted better than all of the drinks that it had preceded it. It was created by the Creator Himself. Should we have expected anything less? Are you inferring that Christ would have created something of lesser quality than that which had been consumed beforehand? How ludicrous a suggestion that is, and is not borne out by the context of Scripture. The best (Christ's creation) was saved til the last. Nothing could have excelled the creation of Christ. To suggest anything else would border on blasphemy. It would suggest that deity is inferior to sinful humanity.
DHK

 

"He made a perfect creation in which there was no sin. Our Creator at the wedding of Cana created grape juice from water."

DHK, that's not what the Bible says!

You keep pointing out that you know the Bible does at times refer to wine. But you seem to insist that you can chose wine to mean grape juice when you want it to.

And I'm not familiar with that book, "Biblical wines or the laws of fermentation." Is it a published book for a bound pamphlet from someone with your same presuppositions?

What about Kenneth Gentry's book?

This seems to have rattled your cage a little. I promise you I'm not trying to ridicule you. But what I see here is a clear example of trying to force the Bible to say something which it does not say! And like I said before if we do this then how can we tell the liberals that they cannot do the same thing?

 

"Fermenting and Fomenting"

If the corruptness of anything from a corrupt world is an issue, then nothing is suitable to commemorate the Lord's death until He comes.

Everything man creates including the juice of the grape is in a state of decay or corruption.

This issue becomes "legalistic" at some point. Shall we make the communion "transsubstantial", take the cup from the people, and make the whole matter beyond recognition? How about "consubstantial"?

Que lastima.

Bro. James

 

DHK,

No. I'm suggesting that Jesus created wine because it is good.

And there goes another moderator throwing around the term "blasphemy" like so many peanut shells at a ball game.

 

"Sour Grapes"

The mystery of the Mass is more concerned with the "Latin words" spoken by a duly authorized "priest" who is "right with God".

Having been a Catholic, I can state that the above "mystery" is very confusing until one comes to the knowledge of its origin: the author of confusion.

Having been around vineyards, home-made wine and beer for several years--in the making and the drinking thereof, I would make the observation that alcohol is being produced as the ripening process comes to fullness--without human intervention. Some overripe fruit sure seems to exhibit the presence of alcohol.

At what percentage do we declare the grape----juice to be wine(alcoholic)?

Both substances would be considered "fruit of the vine". They both have leaven to some degree--one natural, the other man augmented. So much for the objection to leaven. Leaven is there--added or not.

There may be something "unkosher" about our fine points of worship; but then Jesus is not "kosher" either. He is high- priest forever--the order of Melchizadec.

He came unto His own--His own received Him not.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

The altar wine must be of grapes pressed fermented to prevent despoiling through the corruption of the juice in to vinegar.

Sacramental wine was traditionally made by religious orders to ensure no additives entered by way of production. Grape juice can be used although it is said to be a grave offense in the RCC. The wine may not be more than 18% alcoholic, and it is used because Jesus used wine at the Last Supper.

Having pinched a taste of altar wine has a naughty school girl I can say it is a type of wine that would never be used outside of its intended purpose.



The strict rules were designed to prevent corruption and in consequence a mockery of the Sacrament. With the bizarre changes within the church anything goes, even the laity holding the communion wafer in unsanctified hands, drinking the sacremental wine and the tendency thereby to view the entire mystery as a meal rather than the partaking of the real presence of Our Lord.

Okay, folks starting shooting....

 

"The wine may not be more than 18% alcoholic"
"
Wine never is.

 

"This do in remembrance of Me"---

Has been turned into the vain practice of "kosher magicians".

Who authorized that?

"In vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men."

Selah,

Bro.

 

DHK

Alcohol does not represent corruption in scripture. Alcohol is not yeast. I've read that Jews used wine at passover because yeast was forbidden. Fully formented wine had no sugar, and therefore yeast would not grow in it. The Jews had a method of getting the dead yeast out of the wine. There still is kosher Passover wine today. Now there is also kosher grape juice. But in Jesus' day, the deacon Welch's hadn't come up with the process for Welch's grape juice.

 

If the man had some kind of container that would pump the wine out, that might take care of the open container law, but it wouldn't help with the public consumption of alcohol law.

 

Alcohol does represent corruption. There is no doubt about that fact. I did not say that alcohol IS yeast. The process from which alcohol is made requires yeast. Look for yourself. I provided you the links. Any chemistry textbook will tell you this most basic fact. The productioon of alcohol requires yeast: today and in the time of Christ. Yeast is leaven--just another synonym for it, that is all. What is fermented wine--it is corrupted grape juice, grape juice that has gone bad. It has fermented, been corrupted. It is the most horrible thing to associate the Lord's blood that is pure and undefiled with. It is akin to blasphemy. His blood was not corrupted as fermented grape juice of that time was.

It is far easier in Biblical times to keep the unfermented grape juice in storage for long periods of time, then it was for fermented grape juice. When I get more information gathered on that topic I will post it for you. There already has been one link posted that refers to that subject.
DHK

 

It is not blasphemy.

 

I can find no scriptural support for that whatsoever, especially since Jesus used wine at the Last Supper. Additionally, if he was a devout and active Jew, he would have consumed wine at every Sabbath meal every week of his adult life.

 

I can find no scriptural support for that whatsoever, especially since Jesus used wine at the Last Supper. Additionally, if he was a devout and active Jew, he would have consumed wine at every Sabbath meal every week of his adult life. </font>[/QUOTE]John, you are the one that has no Scriptural support for any of that. Get into your mind that wine does not necessarily mean fermented wine, as it does in the English. In the Greek it has the meaning of grape juice also.
DHK

 

I'll have to bow out and agree to disagree with you on this one, since previous posts already support my post, and I would simply be repeating what others said already.