Why not use grapejuice?

The Bible and Alcohol - by Daniel Wallace
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=988

an excerpt:

The significance of these negative statements is just this: If this were only grape juice, why would excess in drinking it be condemned? If this were only grape juice, why are certain mental effects attributed to it (cf., e.g., Psalm 60:3)? One can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that wine is always grape juice, for then the negative statements in scripture make no sense; those who say that it is only grape juice tend to focus just on the neutral and positive passages, conveniently allowing them to condemn the drinking of real wine at all times. But even this position is not logical: If the Bible only speaks of grape juice, then it makes no comment about alcoholic wine. And if so, then it does not directly prohibit it. And if we are going to prohibit something that the Bible does not address, why stop at wine? Why don’t we include the ballet, opera, football games, country-western music (actually, I might be in favor of banning this one!), salt water fishing, zippers on clothes, etc. Once legalism infests the soul it doesn’t know where to quit.

In sum, is wine the same as grape juice? No, for if it were, the Bible would hardly condemn the abuse of such. Those who argue that the two are identical simply cannot handle the passages that speak about excess.

 

"Having been around vineyards, home-made wine and beer for several years--in the making and the drinking thereof, I would make the observation that alcohol is being produced as the ripening process comes to fullness--without human intervention. Some overripe fruit sure seems to exhibit the presence of alcohol."

Has anyone noticed a greyish `bloom` on ripe grapes ? this is natural yeast.
How does a ripe grape taste ? - sweet? this is natural sugar.
Is it hot in the country where Jesus lived while on earth ? Yes.

yeast+sugar+warmth = alchohol

I put some grapes in my juicer last year to make grape juice to drink, as I was juicing the fruit the residue was foaming - already turning to alchohol in my kitchen which was hardly as hot as the temperature where Jesus lived.

 

Are people so naive or simple in their thinking as to expect to believe in a "one word--one meaning" theology in the Bible. Does the same word always mean the same thing as the above quote implies.

What does the word "day" mean? Is it always a 24 hour day of night and day?
--sixth day
--the day of visitation
--the day of Christ
--the day of the Lord

Does "day" always mean the same thing?
Does "wine" always mean the same thing?

In both cases only the context will give you the meaning. Is it not evident that Noah planted a vineyard, and with the grape juice harvested from the grapes, he made fermented wine, and then got drunk? Is it not evident that the wine did not come straight off the vine??

Genesis 9:20-21 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

He planted a vineyard and drank of the wine. Let's not be naive here. Don't read anything into Scripture. Here is your prrof. It is exactly what you want. He planted a vineyard and voila!! Wine was miraculously produced and Noah got drunk. Maybe the wine came straight from the vine without the grapes being produced either. So we conclude: no grape juice, no grapes; just a vine and wine.

This is some of the reasoning that I hear on this board.

Here are some truths:
1. Grape juice (unfermented) was not difficult to preserve. They had different methods than we did. Jacob sent some to Joseph, when Joseph ruled over Egypt.
2. Fermented wine was more difficult to preserve than grape juice in that day.
3. Most importantly of all, words have different meanings. Only the context can determine what the meaning of that word is. Noah got drunk. He wasn't drunk on grape-juice. I think that is a given.
Anyone who believes a "one word--one meaning" theology is going to end up with some serious theological problems.
DHK

 

John 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

Luke 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! (Apparently they saw Jesus drinking Wine which was to them a "No no" (just like the Sabbath) Jesus does not deny this incidently. In fact he goes off at a wedding feast to make wine.

John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well *DRUNK, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Now in John 2:10 the Word used for those who drank from the WINE Jesus made (and ofcourse, their comment was, " He kept the BEST WINE for last" it wasn't grapejuice with a comment like that.

Look at the word "Drunk" in the passage in the New Strongs exhaustive concordance in the greek the word is

*methuo from another word *methe which the primary word is to "Intoxicate" *Methuo means to drink to intoxication, i.e. get drunk:-drink well, made be drunken.


Their comment alone says it all and the surface judgements of the hypocrital Pharisees which judge by appearances conclude Jesus Himself (who came eating and drinking) calling him a winebibber because it seems to indicate Jesus drank Wine. If not He certainly turned the water into something they were very delighted in and as strongs concordance indicates that this was indeed intoxicating.

In Genesis when Noah drunk to drunkeness the Hebrew word *shikkarown is used meaning intoxication. This word comes from *Shekar which once again an intoxicant; intensely alcoholic liquor, Strong drink+ drunkard, strong wine.


Just food for thought, pull out your concordance look it up.

God bless

Seth3

[ December 02, 2004, 03:00 AM: Message edited by: Seth3 ]

 

Apparently you didn't read my above post.
We all agree that Noah got drunk from drinking contaminatied water.

 

I dont read much of what you say DHK sorry about that. But I was not talking to you, besides I'm showing something other then that, I just threw that one in.

I'm showing what Jesus did. I wouldn't call it that, you always have a negative name for something. Everyone who speaks does not nessesarily speak directly to you, there are other eyes besides yours.

To everyone else,

Ok with that out of the way, I was going to post this other I was going to edit in but my edit time lasped.

The Pharisees judged Jesus as a winebibber


Winebibber is the word *oinos which means one who drinks much wine also the same asas *tippler

A tippler is someone who drinks liquor repeatedly in SMALL quantities (not given to much?)


Tipple means to drink liquor especially by habit or to excess
transitive senses : to drink (liquor) especially continuously in small amounts

Jesus said He came eating and drinking but in saying this he really is showing that theres no pleasing the Pharisees no matter what you do. John did the opposite of Jesus and Jesus the opposite of John and they will always find fault with you.

Its funny how Jesus didnt say beware of the yeast of the Wine but the "leaven" of the Pharisee (hypocricy).I'm throwing in a bit of humor here (and must define it as such or I will end up explaining myself for it).

God bless

Seth

 

"1. Grape juice (unfermented) was not difficult to preserve. They had different methods than we did."
"
Indeed a great many of them, none of them worked well...

 

DHK said:Apparently you didn't read my above post.
We all agree that Noah got drunk from drinking contaminatied water.

Tam says, no, i don't agree.

Gen 9-20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

Scripture doesn't go into all the details of planting a vineyard, so why should we assume that it should go into detail about making wine, and him drinking it.

You have to admit, it does say wine, not comtaminated water.

Peace,

Tam

 

Let's consider Scripture about the making of grape juice and wine. What does the Bible say on this subject?
There are two parables in the Bible that concern vineyards: one in Isaiah 5, and the other in Mat.21. With the information gleaned from these two parables, along with some other Scripture, we can learn a lot about vineyards, the care thereof, and the fruits that it produced.
Isaiah wrote:
Isaiah 5:1-2 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

Jesus said:
Matthew 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

These two accounts list eight interesting facts that are true of most vineyards in Bible lands. They are often located on a hillside, cultivated by hoeing or spading, large stones are gathered out of the ground, choice vines are planted, a watch-tower is built, a winepress is constructed, and sometimes vineyards are rented. These points suggest the main features that need to be noticed in a study of the Oriental vineyard.

Hillsides are often used. Although vineyards are to be found in various locations in Palestine, it has been customary during past years for the hillsides to be utilized for the purpose, or the ground at the foot of a hill that slopes gently. Grapevines like a sandy or loose soil. They need plenty of sunshine and air by day, and dew by night, and their roots will penetrate deep crevices of rock to get nourishment. It was "in a very fruitful hill" that Isaiah's vineyard grew (Isa.5:1).

Sections where most of the grapes grew. The favourite places for vineyards in the Bible lands are Southern Palestine, especially in the vicinity of Hebron where there are many hillsides; and in Syria and the foothills of the Lebanon Mountains in the north. It has been reported that one variety of grape grown in the vicinity of Hebron sometimes develops fruit so that one bunch can weith as much s 24 pounds. Two natives will carry such a bunch on a pole, which reminds one of the spies sent by Moses into Canaan.
Numbers 13:23 "And they came unto the brook of Eshcol, and cut down from thence a branch with one cluster of grapes, and they bare it between two upon a staff."

Terraces are necessary for many vineyards. This has to do with those located on the hillsides. A series of low stone walls above each other, are constructed along the side of the hill, to keep the soil in place, and at the right level for growing grapes. Remains of old terraces in various places indicate that this custom has been practiced for many centuries.

A hedge or wall is usually built around a vineyard. An Eastern vineyard is usually surrounded with a ditch, and the earth from the digging of it is thrown along, the inner side of the ditch, and upon this a fence of posts, branches, and twigs is built with thorn-branches on top. Oftentimes a wall of either stones or sun-dried mud takes the place of the fence. This serves as protection from foxes, jackals, or other animals, as well as from any thieves. In the parable of Jesus, the owner of the vineyard "hedged it round about" (Mat.21:33). The Psalmist recounted what would happen to a vineyard whose hedges were broken down:
Psalms 80:12-13 "Why hast thou then broken down her hedges, so that all they which pass by the way do pluck her?
The boar out of the wood doth waste it, and the wild beast of the field doth devour it."
The lover in the Song of Solomon speaks of "the foxes, the little foxes that spoil the vines."
Song of Solomon 2:15 Take us the foxes, the little foxes, that spoil the vines: for our vines have tender grapes.

Large stones are gathered out of the land. After putting a hedge or wall around thee vineyard, the next task is to gather out stones. Isaiah's parable says:
Isaiah 5:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

It is not the small stones that are taken out, because their presence is important to aid in the retaining of moisture in the vineyard's soil. Rather the large boulders must be removed that would be a hindrance to the growing vines. Much of Palestine's land has these rocks present, and they must be laboriously moved in preparation for a crop of grapes.

The soil is prepared for planting. The ground for hillside vineyards is not usually ploughed on account of its rocky character. Rather is the more arduous method of hoeing or spading by hand used. Isaiah pictures the process of cultivation of the soil in the words, "and he digged it" (Isa.5:2). If the farmer in charge of the vineyard does not have a small vineyard, he will probably need to have some workmen to help him, as was the case of the householder in Christ's Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard (Mat.20:1-3), and in such a case it is to the marketplace that he will go to secure his workers.

The construction of a booth or tower was necessary. For centuries Palestinian vineyards have had watchmen, whose duty it has been to be on the lookout for marauders of any kind. Sometimes a simple booth is constructed for him, on a high spot where he can view the entire vineyard. This is made of branches and boughs of trees, and provides a shelter from the rays of the sun. This place becomes the home for the watchman for the summer months of the year. In the winter months this booth is deserted. Isaiah said:
Isaiah 1:8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.
Often a more durable abode is made for the watchman, especially if his family is to live with him for the summer. Isaiah's Song of the Vineyard mentions the building of a tower "in the midst" of the vineyard (Isa.5:2). Jesus' Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen speaks of the building of a tower in the vineyard (Mat.21:33). Also when Christ told of the man who did not count the cost of building a tower, it was doubtless a vineyard-tower to which He was referring (Luke 14:28-30). These towers were of varying height, all the way from ten feet to an occasional forty feet. These towers were not the same as the ones connected with the city walls. Nor are they the same as the more modern towers now in use by the Jews returning to the land of their fathers, who use them as a protection for their agricultural colonies.

The grapevines are planted. The vineyard of Isaiah's song was planted, "with the choicest vine" (Isa.5:2). Although slips are usually planted closer together, they are sometimes set about 12 feet apart in order to give plenty of space for the branches to run. As a rule the young vine is trimmed back and does not bear grapes until following the third year. The grape blossom comes out in April and May and gives out a delicate sweetness. Solomon's Song says:
Song of Solomon 2:13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell.

The Parable of the Sluggard: A good indication of the care required in growing a vineyard may be derived by looking at this parable as given in the book of Proverbs.
Proverbs 24:30-31 I went by the field of the slothful, and by the vineyard of the man void of understanding;
31And, lo, it was all grown over with thorns, and nettles had covered the face thereof, and the stone wall thereof was broken down.
The sluggard failed to keep his vineyard-wall in repair, and he failed to keep his growing vines free of thorns and weeds. These two activities are absolutely necessary. As in the case of raising a crop of grain, the native farmer does not usually fertilize the ground of his vineyard. Liming of the ground is dependent upon the many small and soft limestones so often present in Palestine. Some of the lime in the stones is dissolved with each rainstorm, and mixing with the soil helps it in the growth of the grapes.

The grapevines need pruning. Before the arrival of springtime, the keeper of the vineyard prunes off every superficial branch, every branch that is sickly or feeble, so that the sap may flow into the healthy ones that will bear fruit. The branch that is located nearest the trunk or root usually bears the most grapes. Jesus indicates his familiarity with the pruning of the grapevines, in his famous allegory of the vine and the branches:
John 15:1-3 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

The grapes need to be harvested. The vintage begins in the month of September in the Holy Land, and at this period, from ancient times, the inhabitants of many a village move out to the vineyard, where they live in tents or in lodges. Concerning the men of Shechem, the Book of Judges says:
Judges 9:27 "And they went out into the fields, and gathered their vineyards, and trode the grapes, and made merry.".
Jeremiah tells us about the gathering of the grapes by means of baskets:
Jeremiah 6:9 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall throughly glean the remnant of Israel as a vine: turn back thine hand as a grapegatherer into the baskets.
Isaiah predicts judgement as being a time when "there shall be no singing" in the vineyards (Isa.16:10). Thus the gathering of the grapes into the baskets was done with great joy and much singing. Whole families entered into happiness of this harvest time. This is true among Oriental grape farmers today.

The Use and Marketing of Grape Products: One use of grape products was to have fresh grapes and raisins. During the months of September and October, the fresh ripe grapes are eaten along with bread as one of the principal foods in Bible lands. Then the grapes are dried in a level corner of the vineyard. While being dried they are turned over and sprinkled with olive oil to keep the skin moist. Then they are stored for winter use.
The Mosaic law allowed the eating of grapes from a neighbour's vineyard, but none could be taken away in a vessel (Deut.23:24). Today, in the Arab villages of Palestine, there is an unwritten law of hospitality that everyone passing by a vineyard may help himself, but nobody would think of imposing on this kindness by carrying off any grapes.
Raisins were widely used in the days when he ancient Hebrews lived in Palestine. Abigail gave David one hundred clusters of raisins (1Sam.25:18). Raisins wee brought to David at Hebron (1Chron.12:40), and again, when he was fleeing from Absalom, he received a quantity of them (2Sam. 16:1).

Grapesyrup or "dibs" was another product from the grapes. The Arabs would take the juice of the grapes and boil it until it is as thick as molasses. They call this "dibs," and they were very fond of eating it with bread, or they thin it with water and drink it. This grapehoney was in use in Bible times. It was probably this that Jacob sent to Joseph in Egypt (Gen.43:11), and which was purchased by the Tyrians from the land of Palestine (Ezek.27:17). 300 pounds of grapes will make 100 pounds of dibs.

The Oriental Winepress: The winepress of Isaiah's parable was constructed by hewing it out of rock (Isa.5:2). Those seen today are composed of two depressions hewn out of solid rock. The one is higher than the other one, and is also larger. The grapes are put into this one, and then trodden by the feet of men, women, and also children, usually whole families working together. The juice flows into the lower depression. Usually each vineyard of any size has its own winepress. This work of treading the grapes was customarily accompanied by shouts and songs of happiness. Jeremiah speaks of judgment in terms of the absence of this happiness.
Jeremiah 48:33 And joy and gladness is taken from the plentiful field, and from the land of Moab; and I have caused wine to fail from the winepresses: none shall tread with shouting; their shouting shall be no shouting.

The winepress is a figure of divine judgement. Isaiah describes the nations as being put in Gods winepress where He treads upon them until His garments are sprinkled with their lifeblood (Ida.63:3-6). There is a graphic picture of the destruction of the army of the Antichrist in the Apocalypse. The coming Redeemer is described as being "clothed with a vesture dipped in blood," and He is said to tread "the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God" (Rev.19:13,15).

The Vineyards are often rented. Vineyards that are large are often rented out to one or more families. When this is done, the peasant who rents the vineyard agrees to give half or more of the products of the grapes. When harvest-time comes, the owner will send his servant to secure his share of the grapes, rising, wine, or dibs. This illustrates Christ's Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen, for Jesus in telling his parables was making use of familiar practices among the people.
Matthew 21:33-34 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
(From: "Manners and Customs of Bible Lands" by Fred H. Wight)

 

hmmm Tam, don't you think he could have gotten drunk on milk, or maybe even a spoonful of honey?

 

The question is, why did the Pharisees say that?
They laid false accusations against him when they crucified him as well.
Are you going to believe the false accusations of the Pharisees now that are thrown against Christ, that make him look like a drunkard? Do you really believe that?
DHK

 

DHK --

Endlessly repeating that wine is "corrupted" or "defiled" or grape juice "gone bad" will not make it so.

Furthermore, read Jesus' whole rebuke to the Pharisees' false accusation. John didn't drink and Jesus did, and the Pharisees accused both. Obviously John drank something, otherwise he would have died. What didn't John drink? Something that Jesus did drink, and which made the Pharisees' false accusation look somewhat tenable. One guess which drink it is.

 

Truth is Truth. Repeating a lie won't make it truth. Alcohol is made from yeast. Yeast is a symbol of corruption in the Bible. I prefer to believe the Bible over man's opinion.

Jesus rebuke:
Matthew 11:18-19 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say,
19 Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

John didn't eat nor drink. This is a reference to his ascetic way of life in the wilderness where his diet consisted of honey and locusts. During this time he neveer went to any feasts. This is what Christ is referring to.

What did they say of Christ?
--He was gluttonous. False accusation.
--He was a winebibber. False accusation.

Why these false accusations?
These arose because, unlike John, Jesus went to the houses of people like Simon and other publicans and sinners and were entertained by them and feasted by them. This angered the Pharisees for their self-righteouness reasoned that such a one should never be seen with such lowly people let alone go into their houses and eat with them. Thus the false accusations arose against Christ.
DHK

 

I have to say that this has a strong element of unreality in it to my mind. The references to the Holy One not seeing decay are clearly prophesing the resurrection and not referring to what Jesus eat or drank. Alcohol is not the only product that 'corrupts' as part its natural development. Milk does the same-youghurt by its very nature is a form of mouldy milk. Any fruit that has gone past its best is decaying. There would seem to be little doubt that Jesus, like anyone else, would have eat less than perfect fruit sometimes. Did that cause His body to see corruption or decay? Clearly not.

There is a real danger of gnostecism in the argument and that is a major concern.

 

Your right. There are plenty of other foods that use yeast and leaven. The most common is bread. The Jews were permitted to eat leavened bread, and did so often. But they were not permitted to eat leavened bread at certain feasts or ceremonies, like the feast of the Passover, or on the Day of the Atonement. The Passover was to be strictly observed with unleavened bread. Christ is our passover. When we celebrate the Lord's Table we use unleavened bread to represent his body. Likewise we use unleavened juice to represent his blood. To do otherwise would be to misrepresent the body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. It would be to teach that Christ was not sinless; that He had a sin nature; that his body was corrupted. It would have many heretical implications.
The Bible teaches that we can eat all different kinds of food, but not in the celebration of the Lord's Table.
DHK

 

Drunk on wine or a spoonfull of honey??



You've finally weirded me out DHK!

Never mind.

Tam

 

I thought you would understand my sarcasm first time around.
DHK

 

Nothing that goes inside the man can make him unclean, Jesus said that. He also said that He came eating and DRINKING and the Wine at the wedding feast as shown above with concordance references shows it was "the intoxicating kind". Theres nothing wrong with PHYSICAL YEAST in Wine, Our Lord said it is the SPIRITUAL YEAST (The LEAVEN) of the Pharisees that we are to beware of . Which ofcourse is hypocricy that is a SPIRTUAL attribute. Found in the bread or the body of Christ if it goes unchecked, it leavens the whole lump (to be led away by others in this hypocricy)

By the way... Hi Tam

God bless

Seth3

 

There was a reason for the unleavened bread at the Lord's Table, Seth.
If we take your Scripture (out of the context of this discussion) literally, then try a cup of arsenic.
DHK

 

Leaven (Hypocricy) is as arsenic to the body of Christ and Jesus warns of THESE people.

DHK I drink arsenic each time I take in nasty judgemental, critical, unkind, hypocrital contensious scornful words ( which are as the poison of vipers) but no poisonous thing shall hurt me, try as the Pharisee may.

God bless

Seth3