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Why? or Why Not?
- Thread starter 37818
- Start date
??
I don't follow.
I am saying I also agree with the passages.
You posted them....right?
Who's on first?
37818
Well-Known Member
Romans 5:9, Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Yes. We are saved from God's wrath. God set Jesus forth as a Propitiation in His blood.
I am not sure your point. I know the word "wrath" is in the Bible.
I was talking about those who believe Jesus experienced God's wrath.
I know we, in Christ, do not experience God's wrath. The wicked are the ones storing up wrath for themselves for the Day of Wrath. We will not be among the wicked (we will be in His image, having laid aside the "old self", been made a new creation, etc.).
KenH
Well-Known Member
@JonC wrote: "Now, some may believe that God laying our iniquity on Jesus means it was taken from us snd put on Him....but that would mean Christ is unrighteous today as God lays Jesus' righteousness on us."
That is wrong reasoning. The sins of God's elect were imputed, charged, credited to Christ. Christ was not made a sinner. Christ has always been and will always be the spotless Son of God.
For he hath made him to be sin for us,.... Christ was made of a woman, took flesh of a sinful woman; though the flesh he took of her was not sinful, being sanctified by the Spirit of God, the former of Christ's human nature: however, he appeared "in the likeness of sinful flesh"; being attended with infirmities, the effects of sin, though sinless; and he was traduced by men as a sinner, and treated as such. Moreover, he was made a sacrifice for sin, in order to make expiation and atonement for it; so the Hebrew word חטאה signifies both sin and a sin offering; see Psalm 40:6 and so αμαρτια, Romans 8:3. But besides all this, he was made sin itself by imputation; the sins of all his people were transferred unto him, laid upon him, and placed to his account; he sustained their persons, and bore their sins; and having them upon him, and being chargeable with, and answerable for them, he was treated by the justice of God as if he had been not only a sinner, but a mass of sin; for to be made sin, is a stronger expression than to be made a sinner: but now that this may appear to be only by imputation, and that none may conclude from hence that he was really and actually a sinner, or in himself so, it is said he was "made sin"; he did not become sin, or a sinner, through any sinful act of his own, but through his Father's act of imputation, to which he agreed; for it was "he" that made him sin: it is not said that men made him sin; not but that they traduced him as a sinner, pretended they knew he was one, and arraigned him at Pilate's bar as such; nor is he said to make himself so, though he readily engaged to be the surety of his people, and voluntarily took upon him their sins, and gave himself an offering for them; but he, his Father, is said to make him sin; it was he that "laid", or "made to meet" on him, the iniquity of us all; it was he that made his soul an offering for sin, and delivered him up into the hands of justice, and to death, and that "for us", in "our" room and stead, to bear the punishment of sin, and make satisfaction and atonement for it; of which he was capable, and for which he was greatly qualified."
- excerpt from John Gill's commentary on 2 Corinthians 5:21
That is wrong reasoning. The sins of God's elect were imputed, charged, credited to Christ. Christ was not made a sinner. Christ has always been and will always be the spotless Son of God.
For he hath made him to be sin for us,.... Christ was made of a woman, took flesh of a sinful woman; though the flesh he took of her was not sinful, being sanctified by the Spirit of God, the former of Christ's human nature: however, he appeared "in the likeness of sinful flesh"; being attended with infirmities, the effects of sin, though sinless; and he was traduced by men as a sinner, and treated as such. Moreover, he was made a sacrifice for sin, in order to make expiation and atonement for it; so the Hebrew word חטאה signifies both sin and a sin offering; see Psalm 40:6 and so αμαρτια, Romans 8:3. But besides all this, he was made sin itself by imputation; the sins of all his people were transferred unto him, laid upon him, and placed to his account; he sustained their persons, and bore their sins; and having them upon him, and being chargeable with, and answerable for them, he was treated by the justice of God as if he had been not only a sinner, but a mass of sin; for to be made sin, is a stronger expression than to be made a sinner: but now that this may appear to be only by imputation, and that none may conclude from hence that he was really and actually a sinner, or in himself so, it is said he was "made sin"; he did not become sin, or a sinner, through any sinful act of his own, but through his Father's act of imputation, to which he agreed; for it was "he" that made him sin: it is not said that men made him sin; not but that they traduced him as a sinner, pretended they knew he was one, and arraigned him at Pilate's bar as such; nor is he said to make himself so, though he readily engaged to be the surety of his people, and voluntarily took upon him their sins, and gave himself an offering for them; but he, his Father, is said to make him sin; it was he that "laid", or "made to meet" on him, the iniquity of us all; it was he that made his soul an offering for sin, and delivered him up into the hands of justice, and to death, and that "for us", in "our" room and stead, to bear the punishment of sin, and make satisfaction and atonement for it; of which he was capable, and for which he was greatly qualified."
- excerpt from John Gill's commentary on 2 Corinthians 5:21
KenH
Well-Known Member
Likewise, the perfect righteousness of Christ, the LORD my Righteousness, has been imputed, charged, credited to me. I am not righteous in myself, yet I am covered with the righteousness of Christ, as the old hymn says, "When He shall come with trumpet sound, O may I then in Him be found: dressed in His righteousness alone, faultless to stand before the throne."
Isaiah 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the LORD,
my soul shall be joyful in my God;
for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation,
he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness,
as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments,
and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
I am still the same filthy, wretched sinner that I was before the Holy Spirit regenerated me; my fleshly body won't be redeemed into a spiritual body until Christ returns, burns up this present heavens and earth, and establishes the new heavens and earth wherein dwells righteousness.
Isaiah 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the LORD,
my soul shall be joyful in my God;
for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation,
he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness,
as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments,
and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
I am still the same filthy, wretched sinner that I was before the Holy Spirit regenerated me; my fleshly body won't be redeemed into a spiritual body until Christ returns, burns up this present heavens and earth, and establishes the new heavens and earth wherein dwells righteousness.
The whole issue is men know they need rescued but seek out an easy believism faith because an Atonement that is more than resolving their punishment demands something of them.
God laid our iniquity on Him.
God lays His righteousness on us.
He bore our sins.
We bear His righteousness.
This is the reconciliation. And we will be conformed to His image.
@KenH is wrong to believe that the blood of Christ shed for us is so minimal a thing. Christ accomplished the reconciliation of God and man on the Cross. Reducing the cross to nothing but a forensic accounting of human behavior is "another gospel".
God laid our iniquity on Him.
God lays His righteousness on us.
He bore our sins.
We bear His righteousness.
This is the reconciliation. And we will be conformed to His image.
@KenH is wrong to believe that the blood of Christ shed for us is so minimal a thing. Christ accomplished the reconciliation of God and man on the Cross. Reducing the cross to nothing but a forensic accounting of human behavior is "another gospel".
KenH
Well-Known Member
I would be very curious how you came up with such, based on anything that I have written in posts #5 and #6 in this thread.
Because you are still dealing with the atonement accounting for sins.
Man's "problem" is not want of somebody to be punished in his place. Salvation is not about escaping accountability of our actions.
God layed our iniquities on Jesus.
God lays Jesus' righteousness on us.
He bore our sins.
We bear His righteousness.
But we are predestined in Christ to be conformed to His image, to be glorified.
"sins of all his people were transferred unto him, laid upon him, and placed to his account; he sustained their persons, and bore their sins; and having them upon him, and being chargeable with, and answerable for them, he was treated by the justice of God as if he had been not only a sinner, but a mass of sin; for to be made sin, is a stronger expression than to be made a sinner"
The above is superficial and unbiblical.
Were Christ viewed by God as a sinner (via imputatation) then man cannot be reconciled to God. Our sins could be accounted for, not justly, but according to legal justice.
It would be better if you were content with what is written in Scripture.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Why do you think that?
Because the Bible tells us (many places) that, how, and why God forgives sins.
What you are saying (without really saying it) is that God cannot forgive sins so He imputes our sins to Jesus and punishes them there so that we escape the wrath to come.
But even if the cross was just God accounting for sins so we would not be held responsible we would not escape the wrath to come.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours as well.Good evening (9PM local time) @JonC,
Here is wishing you and your’s a Happy Thanksgiving.
(there, I addressed JonC)
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
And this is, imo, the biggest problem with these debates. Folks claim someone is saying something that they are not saying, and not only not saying it but have denied saying it and obviously do not believe it, and yet the claim is made as a way to dismiss their opinion out of hand.
Just once I wish someone would accurately repeat someone’s else’s opinion and acknowledge the scriptural support for that opinion and THEN explain through scripture why it’s incorrect.
There is a whole lot of talking passed each other and very little having an honest discussion of ideas and beliefs.
Peace to you
To you and yours as well.
To be fair, he was actually saying it without saying it.
He explained that God imputes our sins to Jesus, punishes Jesus for our sins (God literally pretends that Jesus was a sinner), and that clears our account.
That means God cannot forgive sins. He won't put it that way because that contradicts Scripture. But punishing sins in order to forgive sins does not meet the definition of forgiveness.
If one forgives an offence then any action is forgone. To punish a crime negates forgiveness.
What he is describing is God transferring our sins from our account to Jesus' account and punishing Jesus to pay a debt so that we are not held accountable.
The flaws are numerous. Justice is not an issue of accounting. Punishment is not rendered without a purpose (other than clearing an account). While transgressions can be called debts to the Mosaic Law (strikes against a person) they are not debts in an accounting way. They are deficiencies or violations of the Mosaic Law.
Most importantly, one is not saved based on the forgiveness of sins. Sins are forgiven because one is changed from a sinner (the "old self") to the image of Christ (the "new self").
We escape the wrath to come because when that wrath comes we are in thr image of Christ, we are righteous, we are glorified (we are what God has predestined us to be in Christ).
@KenH 's theory that God uses an acvounting practice so that we are not held accountable for our sins would not meet the criteria for us not to escape the wrath to come. We would still be guilty, still fall short of God's glory.
If he says God does all the other things as well then the act of punishing Christ for our dins is benign (it accomplishes nothing....we still die in the body because of sin, we still live in the spirit because of righteous).