Thomas Helwys
New Member
I guess poor old Paul's thorn in the flesh was not removed because of his unbelief. Too bad Awaken could not have lived in his time and admonished him about that and instructed him on how to be healed of it.
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why physical healing provided For In Cross of Christ?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
Pauls thorn was not illness!I guess poor old Paul's thorn in the flesh was not removed because of his unbelief. Too bad Awaken could not have lived in his time and admonished him about that and instructed him on how to be healed of it.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
Pauls thorn was not illness!
Not a good sidestep on your part. Keep practicing.
Not a good sidestep on your part. Keep practicing.
It was a "messenger of Satan" (2 Corinthians 12:7. Paul didn't use a Greek word for sickness or disease in this verse, but instead he specifically used the Greek word for "angel," and he specifically said that it was a demonic angel.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
It was a "messenger of Satan" (2 Corinthians 12:7. Paul didn't use a Greek word for sickness or disease in this verse, but instead he specifically used the Greek word for "angel," and he specifically said that it was a demonic angel.
Dear Lord.
Satan attacked Job physically and killed his children. So this being an angel is not evidence of this thorn not being a physical issue.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
Satan attacked Job physically and killed his children. So this being an angel is not evidence of this thorn not being a physical issue.
You and I can see that, but she cannot. Why? It sounds like she has been studying at the Bennie Hinn School of Theology.
You can not show me in scripture where God changed his mind and does not want to heal!
paul seemed to have the inspired view that God can and does use even sickness, poverty, bad things at times to make us more dependent upon him!
English Standard Version (©2001)
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2 Corh 12:9 Esv
The Apostle suffered hardships all his days, was he out of Will of God, or lack ofaith?
Satan attacked Job physically and killed his children. So this being an angel is not evidence of this thorn not being a physical issue.
Also, didn't Paul mention in one of his letters that he wrote large letters, so they knew it was him writing, and that they would have given them their eyes if they could have? many thought paul suffered from eye disease?
paul seemed to have the inspired view that God can and does use even sickness, poverty, bad things at times to make us more dependent upon him!
English Standard Version (©2001)
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2 Corh 12:9 Esv
The Apostle suffered hardships all his days, was he out of Will of God, or lack ofaith?
Paul did not just ask God to take this demon away, but instead he pleaded with God to take it away. Nowhere in the New Testament is there even a single example of anyone healing a person by pleading with God to do the healing. Jesus never pleaded with God to heal anyone, and the apostles never pleaded with God to heal anyone, and so on. This is not how healing works, and this is never how Paul healed anyone in the New Testament. Paul was not pleading for a healing. He was pleading to be delivered from persecutions and hardships. For example, notice that when Paul began boasting about his "thorn in the flesh," he was boasting about insults, hardships, persecutions, difficulties, and anything that made him weak, because God's power is made perfect in weakness (2 Corinthians 12:7-10). In fact, we can see that in the previous chapter of the same book (2 Corinthians) As you said...Paul boasted about more of his sufferings and afflictions and weaknesses.
Paul described just about every form of suffering and affliction that we could possibly think of, yet nowhere in these verses did he mention any sicknesses or diseases.
Also, didn't Paul mention in one of his letters that he wrote large letters, so they knew it was him writing, and that they would have given them their eyes if they could have? many thought paul suffered from eye disease?
In Galatians 6:11 when Paul referred to "how large a letter" (KJV) or "what large letters" (NIV), we really can't say for sure what he meant. It's possible that he wrote in large letters for emphasis, such as when we use bold letters for emphasis. It's also possible that his eyes were getting weak with age, so he needed to write in large letters. Another possibility is that he simply had poor handwriting. Or perhaps he was referring to the length of his letter to the Galatians. Galatians 6:11 doesn't prove that Paul had an eye condition which was never healed.
Notice that Paul said he had a "bodily ailment" (which is sometimes assumed to be an eye problem) when he first visited Galatia:
Galatians 4:13-15 (AMP): "you know that it was on account of a bodily ailment that [I remained and] preached the Gospel to you the first time. And [yet], although my physical condition was [such] a trial to you, you did not regard it with contempt ... For I bear witness that you would have torn out your own eyes and have given them to me [to replace mine], if that were possible."
The NIV uses the word "illness" in this passage, but the Greek word literally means "feebleness (of body or mind); by implication malady; moral frailty: - disease, infirmity, sickness, weakness." (Strong's Greek Dictionary). What was this infirmity of the flesh or this bodily ailment? Acts 14:19-20 tells us that when Paul and Barnabas were in Lystra, the crowd stoned Paul and left him for dead. The next day, Paul and Barnabas went to Derbe, which was in the southern part of Galatia (according to Eerdman's Atlas of the Bible):
Acts 14:19-20: "Then some Jews came from Antioch and Iconium and won the crowd over. They stoned Paul and dragged him outside the city, thinking he was dead. But after the disciples had gathered around him, he got up and went back into the city. The next day he and Barnabas left for Derbe."
This infirmity from the stoning was the reason why Paul preached the Gospel in Galatia for the first time (Galatians 4:13-15). Consider that Paul both preached and practiced healing, and not once did he ever tell anyone to patiently endure their sicknesses, nor did he ever say that he himself was patiently enduring any infirmity. If Paul's eyes were wounded during the stoning, they apparently were healed because he never listed any eye problems among the sufferings which he had received for the sake of the Gospel.
In Galatians 6:11 when Paul referred to "how large a letter" (KJV) or "what large letters" (NIV), we really can't say for sure what he meant. It's possible that he wrote in large letters for emphasis, such as when we use bold letters for emphasis. It's also possible that his eyes were getting weak with age, so he needed to write in large letters. Another possibility is that he simply had poor handwriting. Or perhaps he was referring to the length of his letter to the Galatians. Galatians 6:11 doesn't prove that Paul had an eye condition which was never healed.
Notice that Paul said he had a "bodily ailment" (which is sometimes assumed to be an eye problem) when he first visited Galatia:
Galatians 4:13-15 (AMP): "you know that it was on account of a bodily ailment that [I remained and] preached the Gospel to you the first time. And [yet], although my physical condition was [such] a trial to you, you did not regard it with contempt ... For I bear witness that you would have torn out your own eyes and have given them to me [to replace mine], if that were possible."
The NIV uses the word "illness" in this passage, but the Greek word literally means "feebleness (of body or mind); by implication malady; moral frailty: - disease, infirmity, sickness, weakness." (Strong's Greek Dictionary). What was this infirmity of the flesh or this bodily ailment? Acts 14:19-20 tells us that when Paul and Barnabas were in Lystra, the crowd stoned Paul and left him for dead. The next day, Paul and Barnabas went to Derbe, which was in the southern part of Galatia (according to Eerdman's Atlas of the Bible):
Acts 14:19-20: "Then some Jews came from Antioch and Iconium and won the crowd over. They stoned Paul and dragged him outside the city, thinking he was dead. But after the disciples had gathered around him, he got up and went back into the city. The next day he and Barnabas left for Derbe."
This infirmity from the stoning was the reason why Paul preached the Gospel in Galatia for the first time (Galatians 4:13-15). Consider that Paul both preached and practiced healing, and not once did he ever tell anyone to patiently endure their sicknesses, nor did he ever say that he himself was patiently enduring any infirmity. If Paul's eyes were wounded during the stoning, they apparently were healed because he never listed any eye problems among the sufferings which he had received for the sake of the Gospel.
truth is that even the saved get cancer/heart attacks/car accidents/tumors...
Chrsitians face same problems as unsaved, as this is a sinful world we created and made, and news is that jesus overcame death and the grave, and Sin, so we have eternal life in his name, but can and will suffer same way as others do!
God does not simply remove all hardships/illnesses etc from us, but promise to allow us to endure and mature thru them!
My mother was a christian...she died with Cancer! I am aware that christians, get sick...have accidents...and die!truth is that even the saved get cancer/heart attacks/car accidents/tumors...
Chrsitians face same problems as unsaved, as this is a sinful world we created and made, and news is that jesus overcame death and the grave, and Sin, so we have eternal life in his name, but can and will suffer same way as others do!
God does not simply remove all hardships/illnesses etc from us, but promise to allow us to endure and mature thru them!
She was healed on the other side! God's will is still to heal! He wants us healthy!
Let me throw this out there for you to think about...Just a few thought questions for you to ponder on!
Do you think Adam and Eve ever got sick before the fall?
Do you think there is sickness in heaven?
Do you think it is God's will in heaven that any be sick?
My mother was a christian...she died with Cancer! I am aware that christians, get sick...have accidents...and die!
She was healed on the other side! God's will is still to heal! He wants us healthy!
Then what in the world are you arguing for? Who in the world does not believe God wants us healthy in heaven? Not sure what your point is.
THen can you explain to me the Lords prayer? If healing is in heaven! No one is sick in heaven! He tells us to pray "your will be done in earth as it is in heaven"....His will in heaven is healing!Then what in the world are you arguing for? Who in the world does not believe God wants us healthy in heaven? Not sure what your point is.
THen can you explain to me the Lords prayer? If healing is in heaven! No one is sick in heaven! He tells us to pray "your will be done in earth as it is in heaven"....His will in heaven is healing!
Maybe you should study the context of that passage. You cannot just apply it to anything you want. This type of abuse and misapplication is so prevalent in the charismatic movement.
THe Lords prayer tells us to pray His kingdom come his will be done in earth as it is in heaven! So if you admit that in heaven his will is to heal! Then why wouldn't I pray for healing here on earth?Maybe you should study the context of that passage. You cannot just apply it to anything you want. This type of abuse and misapplication is so prevalent in the charismatic movement.
THe Lords prayer tells us to pray His kingdom come his will be done in earth as it is in heaven! So if you admit that in heaven his will is to heal! Then why wouldn't I pray for healing here on earth?
I did not say you should not pray for healing on earth. But what you do not do is pray for it based on that passage. It was not intended to be applied that way. But since charismatics have no real understanding of how to study scripture this is the silliness you get.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0736905448/?tag=baptis04-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0736905448/?tag=baptis04-20
And why not pray for it based on that scripture! The point is that if God's will in heaven is healing and we are to pray his will on earth as it is in heaven...there is nothing wrong about praying and believing God's will for us is healing!I did not say you should not pray for healing on earth. But what you do not do is pray for it based on that passage. It was not intended to be applied that way. But since charismatics have no real understanding of how to study scripture this is the silliness you get.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0736905448/?tag=baptis04-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0736905448/?tag=baptis04-20
And why not pray for it based on that scripture! The point is that if God's will in heaven is healing and we are to pray his will on earth as it is in heaven...there is nothing wrong about praying and believing God's will for us is healing!
Uh no, scripture does not say that. That was not the intent of that passage.