Why Pray, Arminian?

[Amy.G]

All you can do is CHOOSE to reject him.

If you can only do one thing, then there is no choice.

Webster's 1828 Dictionary [A-J]
choice
CHOICE, n.

1. The act of choosing; the voluntary act of selecting or separating from two or more things that which is preferred; or the determination of the mind in preferring one thing to another; election.

Ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. Acts 15.

2. The power of choosing; option.

Where there is force, there can be no choice.

Of these alternatives we have our own choice.

3. Care in selecting; judgment or skill in distinguishing what is to be preferred, and in giving a preference.


Dictionary.com
choose
–verb (used with object)
1.
to select from a number of possibilities; pick by preference: She chose Sunday for her departure.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

How subtle the devil is! Each & every conversation gets back to mynute differences of opinion in belief that you all constantly have arguments about. This then causes each group to focus on the differences rather than embracing one another as brothers & sisters in Christ.

OK Im a Calvinist but Ive never questioned another's faith when they tell me they believe in Christ as their Lord & Savior. In fact, I rejoice in hearing that we walk together by faith & the whole of our lives are a matter of faith. And yes to prayer. A Calvinist is not a Calvinist if he doesn't pray. Prayer, Worship, Adore God. You come into the presence of God & you realize that presence. We recognize the presence of the Holy One & we Worship & Adore it. Do we petition ....yes we do in our supplication we do indeed, but not until we offer up thanksgiving. If while we pray to God, & we have a grudge in our hearts, we know we will not be heard.....that grudge must be exercised & made right

But why do Calvinists pray....We dont pray because it changes things. That is not what the apostle says. He says "you pray & make your requests known to God, and God will do something.. it is not your prayer that is going to do it, it is not you who are going to do it, but God. "The peace of God that passeth all understanding" He, through it all , "will keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus"

Amen

 

[Winman]

If you can only do one thing, then there is no choice.

Webster's 1828 Dictionary [A-J]
choice
CHOICE, n.

1. The act of choosing; the voluntary act of selecting or separating from two or more things that which is preferred; or the determination of the mind in preferring one thing to another; election.

Ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. Acts 15.

2. The power of choosing; option.

Where there is force, there can be no choice.

Yep, DoGs believe illogical impossibilities and then high five each other, bragging how superior their doctrine is.

 

[Old Union Brother]

We vigorously “discuss” which is the best doctrine. But the best doctrine is of Christ, consider these scriptures :

2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If we have not the doctrine of Christ and him crucified, we have nothing.

 

[BobinKy]

We vigorously “discuss” which is the best doctrine. But the best doctrine is of Christ, consider these scriptures :

2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If we have not the doctrine of Christ and him crucified, we have nothing.

Amen!

...Bob

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yep, DoGs believe illogical impossibilities and then high five each other, bragging how superior their doctrine is.

Winman, when the "DoG"s of my family came to this country they 1st built their own churches & then helped their Anglican, Baptist, Congregational, Presbyterian etc brethren to build theirs. Then they spent time in one anothers churches helping each other get orientated & in a common goal to preach the word & spread the gospel. I recall my grandfather(a Calvinist Methodist) going to an Episcopal church to help the Welsh immigrants who spoke little English so he could translate. My brother & I are both Calvinists, only he is IFB & Im Reformed Baptist but we do not attack one another..... we are brothers in Christ.

And I dont see myself high fiveing or bragging ....Rather I am trying to be humble of heart & patient in explaining.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

We vigorously “discuss” which is the best doctrine. But the best doctrine is of Christ, consider these scriptures :

2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If we have not the doctrine of Christ and him crucified, we have nothing.

& so what are you saying....are you telling me that Calvinists are not Christian?

 

[Old Union Brother]

& so what are you saying....are you telling me that Calvinists are not Christian?

Not saying that at all!! I'm not sure where you got that idea.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not saying that at all!! I'm not sure where you got that idea.

OK...sorry....forget it then. BTW....is anyone else having problems with the alignment of these threads? Makes posting a challenge.

 

[Old Union Brother]

OK...sorry....forget it then. BTW....is anyone else having problems with the alignment of these threads? Makes posting a challenge.

yea especially if there are polls and you go to advanced post....

 

[Tom Butler]

I did this post with quick reply, and no problems.

It's when you click on PostReply that it goes to the reply page all out of whack.

 

[Don]

This is what was not explained in Luke's OP: Calvinists pray for the salvation of others.

So what is the explanation when the person continues to reject Christ? God hasn't chosen that person for salvation.

So what is the explanation when the person is regenerated, and accepts Christ? God chose that person for salvation.

The thing not explained by the Calvinist is when God made the decision. If, as some contend, Calvinists believe that God chose the person for salvation at the beginning of creation, what was the point of the prayer?

EW&F answered this on page 6 by saying that Calvinists pray for one's salvation because it gives God the ability to change His mind. If this is correct, then there is a conflict with the statement that God chose the person for salvation at the beginning of creation, and it opens up a whole new line of questioning. If God didn't choose them at the beginning of creation, then when did He choose them?

The other possible answer is: we only pray for someone because of our personal obedience to God--which falls exactly into what Amy said about it affecting the individual.

Somewhere about halfway down page 4, Luke asked about prayers increasing one's chances for salvation, and thus decreasing the chances for one who isn't being prayed for. This is a fallacy. It presumes that God has a finite amount of grace. If God's grace is finite, I'd like to see scripture to support that. Increasing one person's "chance" for salvation doesn't take away any of God's grace offered to any other individual, and therefore doesn't "reduce" anyone else's opportunity for salvation.

Finally, take note of what Amy has been saying about defining "choice." It has been presented that the carnal mind cannot do anything but choose to reject God. If the carnal man understood the things of God, then he could choose to reject them; but as Luke himself pointed out in other threads, 1 Cor 2:14 tells us that the man without the spirit does not accept the things of God because he cannot understand them.

If I understand the position correctly, and I'm not saying I do: Borrowing from Luke and referencing Romans 8, the carnal man cannot understand the things of God until he is regenerated--which is not something he chose, but was done to him. It is now at this point that he chooses to fully accept the things of God, or to reject them. If I've got that correct, then salvation doesn't occur at regeneration, but only after the final choice.

Feel free to tear that apart.

Luke - please stop saying that no non-reformed are answering your OP. Several of us have. You don't agree with our answers, and you think we are wrong. That's not the same as not answering.

Why does the Arminian or non-reformed pray for someone's salvation?

Has it already been pre-ordained that our prayer will be answered? If it has, well, we didn't know it, so the prayer wasn't wasted; we were being obedient and saw the power of obedience. If it hasn't been pre-ordained, then the prayer wasn't wasted, because we were obedient, and saw the power of obedience.

Seems to me that no matter how we try to whittle away at this question, the answer comes out the same....

 

[Winman]

In Rom 1 it speaks of men who God "gave them up" (vs 24, 26), and "gave them over" (vs 28), and in Gen 6:3 he said, "My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh".

I believe God is very patient and longsuffering, and wills that all men be saved, but at some point God will give up on that man. He will cease to draw that man, leaving him in rebellion.

Well, this is what I pray concerning lost loved ones especially, that he will not give up on them. I have a brother that has always been rebellious toward God, he has gotten very angry at me when I try to speak with him. I have to be very careful that I do not anger him, I do not want him to put up a wall. When our father died, he was softened a bit for a while and I was able to speak to him, but then he became very hardened again. So, I pray that God will continue to be patient and not give him up, and that he do whatever necessary to break his hard heart.

 

[MB]

Calvinism.

Calvinism doesn't have a deed to all scripture.

Then who can be saved?

The who so ever wills is all that will be saved.

Do you expect God is going to draw someone more if you pray for them than he will those who are not being prayed for.

Prayer can always help in any situation. I believe in it with all my heart. Prayer is the highest form of worship especially when we are on our knees

Isn't God already doing ALL that he can to save EVERYBODY?

It is God who draws man. It is God who convicts. It is God who convinces man. It is man who surrenders to God. You might say "but man can do nothing towards his own Salvation." Surrender is giving up which is doing nothing to stop it anylonger.
Then you'll say man's rebellion is more powerful than God and I'll say no. God gave man freewill. He doesn't want men who aren't willing. God if He chose to, could save man anyway although He doesn't because a willing heart is much more valuable to God.
2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

Can't you see that those with out willingness in the verse above are not accepted by God. The willingness is the part you'd rather not look at. I think you see it you just don't want to admit it. Is Loving God a work? I love many people and not once would I consider it work. It just is.

Once I realized that Christ layed down His life for me I couldn't help but Love Him Then I'm a workaholic:love2:
MB

 

[charles_creech78]

Well according to the word non of us know how to pray. Jesus said you can do nothing without me. But it is the spirit that make intercession for us. Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. But it all come down to the will of God.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Rather we pray, preach, sing, love, hope, speak, ask God to save someone or put something in there way that will cause them to turn to him we must do it to the Honor and glory and will of God only in the name of Jesus Christ. God Bless.

 

[MB]

Well according to the word non of us know how to pray. Jesus said you can do nothing without me. But it is the spirit that make intercession for us. Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. But it all come down to the will of God.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Rather we pray, preach, sing, love, hope, speak, ask God to save someone or put something in there way that will cause them to turn to him we must do it to the Honor and glory and will of God only in the name of Jesus Christ. God Bless.

If we are coming to Christ and praying for Salvation then Christ is right beside us in it.
MB

 

[psalms109:31]

Prayer

Firefox is having trouble with this site when you post, but explorer is working fine.

Prayer is awesome. It lifts off our worry and ask for help from the Holy Spirit within us. The Spirit through the words of our God knocks on the door and will never force Himself within anyone, they have to open the door.

We had this study group with-in a job I was working at. The leader of our group around us walked with God. There was this guy who mocked made fun of persecuted the leader of our group. We prayed for him, and just loved him and never said anything derogatory toward him. I myself thought nothing would change him, i was the one with little faith. I seen a heart of stone turn to flesh and accept Jesus.

Through prayer and petition to God the Holy Spirit that lives in us who believe through us will work outside of a other peoples heart, but they have to accept it and open the door to let Him in.

If anyone has not accepted Jesus through the words of Jesus which is Spirit and life, life is just outside your door open it and let Him in.

You are so close to being regenerated it is at your heart, but you are going to have to open the door for Him and let Him in.

 

[Rippon]

The Spirit through the words of our God knocks on the door and will never force Himself within anyone, they have to open the door.

Ah yes. I recognize that old routine -- the Holy Spirit is a gentleman I believe folks like you call it.

...but they have to accept it and open the door to let Him in.

... life is just outside your door open it and let Him in.

You are so close to being regenerated it is at your heart, but you are going to have to open the door for Him and let Him in.

And I notice that you have imbibed that ole' teaching too. Jesus is knocking on that vine-covered door. He's knocking rpeatedly,n it's quite pathetic,but He is powerless until sovereign man exerts his own will power -- then Jesus is allowed to come in.

The trouble is -- that's not biblical.

 

[convicted1]

In Rom 1 it speaks of men who God "gave them up" (vs 24, 26), and "gave them over" (vs 28), and in Gen 6:3 he said, "My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh".

I believe God is very patient and longsuffering, and wills that all men be saved, but at some point God will give up on that man. He will cease to draw that man, leaving him in rebellion.

:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

Well, this is what I pray concerning lost loved ones especially, that he will not give up on them. I have a brother that has always been rebellious toward God, he has gotten very angry at me when I try to speak with him. I have to be very careful that I do not anger him, I do not want him to put up a wall. When our father died, he was softened a bit for a while and I was able to speak to him, but then he became very hardened again. So, I pray that God will continue to be patient and not give him up, and that he do whatever necessary to break his hard heart.

Bro. Winman,

I will be right there with you, engaged in prayer for you(so that you may say the right words, and not the wrong ones that will build a wall), and for your brother! May God deal with him in such a manner that He crumbles his heart, and he cries out mightily to Him for His mercy!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

Ah yes. I recognize that old routine -- the Holy Spirit is a gentleman I believe folks like you call it.



And I notice that you have imbibed that ole' teaching too. Jesus is knocking on that vine-covered door. He's knocking rpeatedly,n it's quite pathetic,but He is powerless until sovereign man exerts his own will power -- then Jesus is allowed to come in.

The trouble is -- that's not biblical.

So I guess the "elect" don't have to pray?? They just walk around with their hands in their pockets and their heads drooped down low, and then all of a sudden....."WHAMMO"!! Salvation!!


Matt.7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

If you don't ask, you won't receive.....

i am I am's!!

Willis