Why Pray, Arminian?

[psalms109:31]

Ah yes. I recognize that old routine -- the Holy Spirit is a gentleman I believe folks like you call it.



And I notice that you have imbibed that ole' teaching too. Jesus is knocking on that vine-covered door. He's knocking rpeatedly,n it's quite pathetic,but He is powerless until sovereign man exerts his own will power -- then Jesus is allowed to come in.

The trouble is -- that's not biblical.

Revelation 3:

14 “To the angel(messenger) of the church in Laodicea write:...

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

We who are filled by the Spirit are the messenger. It is very biblical. He didn't force himself on them and God does not show favoritism. God is sovereign for He will do what He said He will do, save those who trust in His Son and there is nothing none of us can do about it or change it.

 

[Tom Butler]

I believe God is very patient and longsuffering, and wills that all men be saved, but at some point God will give up on that man. He will cease to draw that man, leaving him in rebellion.

In many ways, this is God's harshest judgment--to leave the sinner alone.

Well, this is what I pray concerning lost loved ones especially, that he will not give up on them. I have a brother that has always been rebellious toward God, he has gotten very angry at me when I try to speak with him. I have to be very careful that I do not anger him, I do not want him to put up a wall. When our father died, he was softened a bit for a while and I was able to speak to him, but then he became very hardened again. So, I pray that God will continue to be patient and not give him up, and that he do whatever necessary to break his hard heart.

I have a brother in the same situation as yours, and our conversations about spiritual things have gone nowhere. That part I bolded is also my prayer for my brother.

In fact, I love my brother so much that I have asked God to over-ride his rebellious will, change his heart and make him willing.

I suggest that we are both praying like Calvinists. Because, at this point, we want our brothers saved so intensely that we're not worried about their free will. God, whatever it takes, please do it, is my prayer.

Obviously, I don't think God drags anybody kicking and screaming into the kingdom. But where my brother is concerned, that'd be fine with me.

 

[quantumfaith]

I an reminded of something my OT Professor often told us.

"Pray as if everything depended upon God, and work as if everything depended upon ourselves" Dr. J. W. Lee Professor of OT Baptist Bible Institute, Graceville Florida.

 

[Luke2427]

If you can only do one thing, then there is no choice.

Webster's 1828 Dictionary [A-J]
choice
CHOICE, n.

1. The act of choosing; the voluntary act of selecting or separating from two or more things that which is preferred; or the determination of the mind in preferring one thing to another; election.

Ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. Acts 15.

2. The power of choosing; option.

Where there is force, there can be no choice.

Of these alternatives we have our own choice.

3. Care in selecting; judgment or skill in distinguishing what is to be preferred, and in giving a preference.


Dictionary.com
choose
–verb (used with object)
1.
to select from a number of possibilities; pick by preference: She chose Sunday for her departure.

You missed an important phrase that clearly identifies the word the way we use it.

THAT WHICH IS PREFERRED.

We believe that every person "voluntarily selects between two things that which is preferred."

The problem is what sinful man ALWAYS prefers.

"PREFER" is the problem.

 

[slave 4 Christ]

]If you can only do one thing, then there is no choice.[/B]

Webster's 1828 Dictionary [A-J]
choice
CHOICE, n.

1. The act of choosing; the voluntary act of selecting or separating from two or more things that which is preferred; or the determination of the mind in preferring one thing to another; election.

Ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. Acts 15.

2. The power of choosing; option.

Where there is force, there can be no choice.

Of these alternatives we have our own choice.

3. Care in selecting; judgment or skill in distinguishing what is to be preferred, and in giving a preference.


Dictionary.com
choose
–verb (used with object)
1.
to select from a number of possibilities; pick by preference: She chose Sunday for her departure.

The arminian view assumes God must honor what man, in Adam, lost.
Man did not lose choice, but preference (not in all things, but toward God) .

God still offers Himself to the World, but man cannot, will not prefer The Light.

This is the judgement that must be in view, Light came into the world, but man loved, ie. preferred, darkness rather than LIGHT.

If one has the choice from an earthly father between chocolate pie and strawberry pie; even though the father knows the child will always prefer the chocolate pie, does not negate the choice given by the father.

Man did not lose the ability to choose God, he lost his preference of God! If a man does not prefer God he will never choose God.

God commands come to MY LIGHT, man responds sorry God I choose the darkness. (John 3:19, Romans 3:10-18)

Man cannot change his preference for darkness, how then will a man's preference for God be changed? Ask Nicodemus? " Jesus said, "you must be born from above". NEW BIRTH = NEW PREFERENCE

Therefore a child of God should pray, God change their preference from darkness to THE LIGHT.

 

[Luke2427]

This is what was not explained in Luke's OP: Calvinists pray for the salvation of others.

So what is the explanation when the person continues to reject Christ? God hasn't chosen that person for salvation.

So what is the explanation when the person is regenerated, and accepts Christ? God chose that person for salvation.

The thing not explained by the Calvinist is when God made the decision. If, as some contend, Calvinists believe that God chose the person for salvation at the beginning of creation, what was the point of the prayer?

Brother Don, I believe I answered that in the OP. We pray because God has commanded it. He has commanded it so that he can answer our prayers and accomplish two things: 1- Get glory for his goodness in being a prayer hearing and prayer answering God. 2- So that he can be good to us and express his love for us in answering the petitions of our hearts.

The Calvinist believes God CAN save the one we pray for even if the one we pray for would never choose Christ. We believe God can hear our prayer and change the heart of the one we pray for and make him wiling to choose Christ and thus God can save him.

The "non-reformed" do not believe that God can or will do that. They believe that one's salvation and damnation is ultimately up to his own choice- a choice that ALL unregenerate will make poorly to their doom. Thankfully the non-reformed are wrong because if they were right ALL men would go to hell because NONE seek after God and the natural man CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit of God.

EW&F answered this on page 6 by saying that Calvinists pray for one's salvation because it gives God the ability to change His mind. If this is correct, then there is a conflict with the statement that God chose the person for salvation at the beginning of creation, and it opens up a whole new line of questioning. If God didn't choose them at the beginning of creation, then when did He choose them?

If you do not think God chose who would be saved from the very beginning you are the ONLY Christian I have ever heard of who believes this. I think even Catholics believe that God chose his elect before the foundation of the world. The Bible is so clear on this that their is almost absolute unanimity within Christendom on the matter.

The other possible answer is: we only pray for someone because of our personal obedience to God--which falls exactly into what Amy said about it affecting the individual.

That's fine but Amy indicated that prayer simply changes the one praying but really does not affect anything else.

Somewhere about halfway down page 4, Luke asked about prayers increasing one's chances for salvation, and thus decreasing the chances for one who isn't being prayed for. This is a fallacy. It presumes that God has a finite amount of grace. If God's grace is finite, I'd like to see scripture to support that. Increasing one person's "chance" for salvation doesn't take away any of God's grace offered to any other individual, and therefore doesn't "reduce" anyone else's opportunity for salvation.

The point is that most non-reformed believe that God draws all men equally. Prayer is not going to affect the soul prayed for one bit more than the one not prayed for. When it comes to salvation, as far as the lost person is concerned, prayer is useless in the Arminian or non-reformed system.

Finally, take note of what Amy has been saying about defining "choice." It has been presented that the carnal mind cannot do anything but choose to reject God. If the carnal man understood the things of God, then he could choose to reject them; but as Luke himself pointed out in other threads, 1 Cor 2:14 tells us that the man without the spirit does not accept the things of God because he cannot understand them.

If I understand the position correctly, and I'm not saying I do: Borrowing from Luke and referencing Romans 8, the carnal man cannot understand the things of God until he is regenerated--which is not something he chose, but was done to him. It is now at this point that he chooses to fully accept the things of God, or to reject them. If I've got that correct, then salvation doesn't occur at regeneration, but only after the final choice.

Exactly.

Feel free to tear that apart.

No, you did very well there.

Luke - please stop saying that no non-reformed are answering your OP. Several of us have. You don't agree with our answers, and you think we are wrong. That's not the same as not answering.

Does prayer to God for a lost soul avail anything for the lost soul?

Or does it just affect the one praying?

And if it does affect the lost soul, whether by increasing opportunities for him to be saved or whatever, does that not mean that prayer moves God to do more on behalf of some people's salvation than another?

Why does the Arminian or non-reformed pray for someone's salvation?

Has it already been pre-ordained that our prayer will be answered? If it has, well, we didn't know it, so the prayer wasn't wasted; we were being obedient and saw the power of obedience. If it hasn't been pre-ordained, then the prayer wasn't wasted, because we were obedient, and saw the power of obedience.


Seems to me that no matter how we try to whittle away at this question, the answer comes out the same....

I like this answer.

 

[Luke2427]

Calvinism doesn't have a deed to all scripture.

No. Scripture has a deed to all Calvinism.

The who so ever wills is all that will be saved.

Agreed. But SINCE no unregenerate person is willing, thankfully God changes the hearts of men so that they are willing.

All those whose hearts are changed by God are the "whosoever wills..." None else seek after God. All natural men do not and cannot recieve the things of the Spirit of God.

It is God who draws man. It is God who convicts. It is God who convinces man. It is man who surrenders to God.

We agree on all of these points. But the question at hand is does the prayers of the saints move God to draw harder or more times on the one prayed for?

If so, God is showing favoritism to those prayed for- and I thought that was anathema maranatha to the non-reformed.

You might say "but man can do nothing towards his own Salvation." Surrender is giving up which is doing nothing to stop it anylonger.
Then you'll say man's rebellion is more powerful than God and I'll say no. God gave man freewill. He doesn't want men who aren't willing. God if He chose to, could save man anyway although He doesn't because a willing heart is much more valuable to God.

Why is it more valuable to God and what do you base the idea that it is more valuable to God upon? Do you have any Bible for that?

Can't you see that those with out willingness in the verse above are not accepted by God. The willingness is the part you'd rather not look at. I think you see it you just don't want to admit it. Is Loving God a work? I love many people and not once would I consider it work. It just is.

NNE is willing until they are regenerated. Romans 8 says the carnal mind is enmity with God and is not subject unto the law of God neither indeed can it be.

I Corinthians 2 says, "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he for they are spiritually discerned.

Once I realized that Christ layed down His life for me I couldn't help but Love Him Then I'm a workaholic:love2:

Yes, he changed your heart and you COULD NOT HELP BUT LOVE HIM.

I've never heard a Calvinist say this truth any better.

You'd make a good one if you weren't so stubbornly opposed to changing.

 

[glfredrick]

If we are coming to Christ and praying for Salvation then Christ is right beside us in it.
MB

This is essentially a Reformed thought. I only mention this because I want people in this thread to realize just how close together we actually are in doctrine!

We find the Arminian, (or IFB who does not claim Arminianism or Calvinism), or Calvinist all saying that God is at the heart of salvation, and that Jesus is the Savior.

We find all groups saying that they pray for God to do His will, and all realize that God WILL do His will whether or not we always like it.

We find all groups somewhat stymied in their attempts to disavow the other groups, and eventually one side or the other makes an argument like MB above, that fits solidly into the doctrine of the other camp. That is because, as I have said repeatedly, we share the SAME BIBLE, and we cannot divide God or God's Word and remain God's people. Ultimately, we are arguing for the same issues, albeit one sees this coming first instead of that, and that (other than the hateful rhetoric we spew back and forth) is all the divides us!

 

[Don]

This is essentially a Reformed thought. I only mention this because I want people in this thread to realize just how close together we actually are in doctrine!

We find the Arminian, (or IFB who does not claim Arminianism or Calvinism), or Calvinist all saying that God is at the heart of salvation, and that Jesus is the Savior.

We find all groups saying that they pray for God to do His will, and all realize that God WILL do His will whether or not we always like it.

We find all groups somewhat stymied in their attempts to disavow the other groups, and eventually one side or the other makes an argument like MB above, that fits solidly into the doctrine of the other camp. That is because, as I have said repeatedly, we share the SAME BIBLE, and we cannot divide God or God's Word and remain God's people. Ultimately, we are arguing for the same issues, albeit one sees this coming first instead of that, and that (other than the hateful rhetoric we spew back and forth) is all the divides us!

Absolutely.

 

[The Archangel]

This is essentially a Reformed thought. I only mention this because I want people in this thread to realize just how close together we actually are in doctrine!

We find the Arminian, (or IFB who does not claim Arminianism or Calvinism), or Calvinist all saying that God is at the heart of salvation, and that Jesus is the Savior.

We find all groups saying that they pray for God to do His will, and all realize that God WILL do His will whether or not we always like it.

We find all groups somewhat stymied in their attempts to disavow the other groups, and eventually one side or the other makes an argument like MB above, that fits solidly into the doctrine of the other camp. That is because, as I have said repeatedly, we share the SAME BIBLE, and we cannot divide God or God's Word and remain God's people. Ultimately, we are arguing for the same issues, albeit one sees this coming first instead of that, and that (other than the hateful rhetoric we spew back and forth) is all the divides us!

Good Words!

 

[The Archangel]

One thing I have not seen discussed in the answer to "Why Pray?" is the "what" of what prayer is supposed to accomplish.

Are we thinking of prayer like sitting on Santa's lap? Do we give a laundry list of things we want to God? I fear most of us fall into this category.

But, I think the major purpose of prayer is to change us. We pray and in our prayers God conforms us more closely to the image of Christ.

So, in the end, prayer doesn't change God (for He is unchangeable); prayer changes us (for we are in desperate need of change).

The Archangel

 

[Luke2427]

One thing I have not seen discussed in the answer to "Why Pray?" is the "what" of what prayer is supposed to accomplish.

Are we thinking of prayer like sitting on Santa's lap? Do we give a laundry list of things we want to God? I fear most of us fall into this category.

But, I think the major purpose of prayer is to change us. We pray and in our prayers God conforms us more closely to the image of Christ.

So, in the end, prayer doesn't change God (for He is unchangeable); prayer changes us (for we are in desperate need of change).

The Archangel

Agreed. And I am glad that has been noted on both sides of the aisle in this thread.

I think the primary purpose behind prayer is the primary purpose behind EVERYTHING- the glory of God.

God tells us to ask for things and then grants them so that he might show his kindness toward us thus magnifying his grace and goodness as a God who graciously hears the prayers of his children.

And at times, he says, "no", to display his wisdom. Later on we learn that he was wise and benevolent even for saying no.

Thus, via our prayers God is glorified.

 

[Luke2427]

I an reminded of something my OT Professor often told us.

"Pray as if everything depended upon God, and work as if everything depended upon ourselves" Dr. J. W. Lee Professor of OT Baptist Bible Institute, Graceville Florida.

You know, that is actually a quote from Augustine if I am not mistaken.

 

[slave 4 Christ]

The People of God follow their Shepard. His prayer in John 17 gives the why and what.

We pray: That The Father's glory might be manifest through our lives.

We pray: That through our voice The Father's name might be manifest unto those whom it has been given to know HIM.

We pray: Father let the focus be on YOU not on us!

 

[Don]

Based on the responses and tone over the last couple of pages:

Wow.

Arminians and Calvinists agreeing on something on the Baptist Board.

It's a new year, indeed....

:laugh:

 

[Luke2427]

The People of God follow their Shepard. His prayer in John 17 gives the why and what.

We pray: That The Father's glory might be manifest through our lives.

We pray: That through our voice The Father's name might be manifest unto those whom it has been given to know HIM.

We pray: Father let the focus be on YOU not on us!

Very good.

 

[psalms109:31]

My prayer

I do pray every day that God continue to hide the truth from those who are wise and learned and depend on themselves and not God and to open the heart of the meek and humble who trust in the Lord and not their own understanding. Who accept Christ just as they are dead in their sin and let God change them and make them alive.

This is for His good pleasure and praise and glory and magnification of God through Jesus.

 

[convicted1]

Yes, and that's why the Bible calls them fools.

"Ouch"!! That was a good one!! Kuddos!! :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

 

[quantumfaith]

You know, that is actually a quote from Augustine if I am not mistaken.

Thanks, I did not know that. He was a great theologian and thinker.