Why Provisionism Is Not Biblical

[Silverhair]

I will when God gives you eyesight..until then , you look to repeat error over and over. I cannot help that. You look but do not see.

Isa 42:1 (NKJV) "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

Joh_6:56 (NKJV) "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

Joh_15:5 (NKJV) "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

2Co_5:21 (NKJV) For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Php 3:8 (NKJV) Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
Php 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

Z contrary to you I believe the word of God. You on the other hand believe what some calvinist teachers tell you the word of God means.

Christ is the elect one and when we are in Him then and only then are we part of the elect.

Z you look and still repeat the same error over and over. I have pointed out your errors but you will not trust the truth of God's word. You look but refuse to see.

I can only show you the truth, I can’t make you believe it

 

[Tea]

@Silverhair

I believe there is a common misunderstanding that reformed/Calvinists (whom I prefer to call "monergists") follow men rather than the Bible. In reality, we prioritize Scripture and weigh its teachings against the insights of respected theologians. If a belief aligns with Scripture, we accept it; if it does not, we reject it. For instance, as a Baptist, I disagree with Calvin's perspective on infant baptism.

Based on our previous interactions, I believe I have a solid understanding of your perspective.

Claiming that God foreknew every individual who would be saved at the time of creation, while suggesting that His foreknowledge is based on observing the future, can lead to more complications than solutions. For one, if God knows everything that everyone will do, then it follows that individuals can only act in ways that God already knows. That includes perfect knowledge of every single individual who will ever come to faith. To suggest otherwise can lead you into the trap of open theism. Secondly, if God observes that we first choose to accept Him before He chooses us, it can lead you into the trap of works-based salvation.

So, I hope you can see that we have solid reasons for our beliefs, just as I'm confident you have your own valid reasons for what you believe; however, the critical flaws need to be pointed out.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair

I believe there is a common misunderstanding that reformed/Calvinists (whom I prefer to call "monergists") follow men rather than the Bible. In reality, we prioritize Scripture and weigh its teachings against the insights of respected theologians. If a belief aligns with Scripture, we accept it; if it does not, we reject it. For instance, as a Baptist, I disagree with Calvin's perspective on infant baptism.

Based on our previous interactions, I believe I have a solid understanding of your perspective.

Claiming that God foreknew every individual who would be saved at the time of creation, while suggesting that His foreknowledge is based on observing the future, can lead to more complications than solutions. For one, if God knows everything that everyone will do, then it follows that individuals can only act in ways that God already knows. That includes perfect knowledge of every single individual who will ever come to faith. To suggest otherwise can lead you into the trap of open theism. Secondly, if God observes that we first choose to accept Him before He chooses us, it can lead you into the trap of works-based salvation.

So, I hope you can see that we have solid reasons for our beliefs, just as I'm confident you have your own valid reasons for what you believe; however, the critical flaws need to be pointed out.

@Tea what you call a misunderstanding is actually not one at all. While prior calvinists that you follow may have used the bible the error is in how they used the bible. As has been pointed out on this board many times the calvinist approach to scripture is to use it to support there preconceived views rather than letting the word of God inform those views.

Calvinism requires that God determine all things but then want to deny that view would require that He also determine all sin and evil. But lets deal with God's foreknowledge. God foreknows all that will happen not based on His observing the future but rather because He in Omniscient. God does not learn new things as your comment would suggest. He knows all the free will choices, whether good or bad, that man will make but He does not determine what those choices will be. That is why man is responsible for his choices.

Now under your calvinistic approach we see that God has determined all those choices and thus man in actual fact is not responsible for them as he could not do other than what God had determined for him to do.

God is sovereign, which I am sure you would agree with, now in His sovereignty He can either determine all things or He can grant man a limited free will with which to make real choices. Now under determinism man has no ability to make actual real choices do they. Even your faith has to be given to you after you are saved, an unbiblical view I might add.

Under a limited free will man has the God given ability to make real choices regarding his salvation. He can choose to accept or reject God and is held responsible for those real choices. This is the biblical view which is supported by numerous verses. Rom 1:16, Jn 3:15-16, Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9-10, Rom 10:13 etc.

You make the comment "if God observes that we first choose to accept Him before He chooses us, it can lead you into the trap of works-based salvation" but that comment flies in the face of scripture. We are saved by grace because we believe not so that we will believe and our faith is not considered a work. Eph 2:8-9 Your view is just another of the odd things that calvinism has read into scripture.

Scripture clearly teaches that faith and works are polar opposites. When did one espousing "faith" ever become a "works based" theology? The Bible is very clear that "faith" is not "works". Rom 4:4-5, Rom 11:6, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9

So while you may understand some of what I believe you have also twisted it to fit the calvinist view of any that do not agree with calvinism.

 

[Tea]

As has been pointed out on this board many times the calvinist approach to scripture is to use it to support there preconceived views rather than letting the word of God inform those views.

I can’t speak for other Calvinists, but I never approached the Bible with any preconceived notions. In fact, there was a time when I would probably agree with many of the things you’re saying now. But, when my positions were challenged by Calvinists, and was forced to think through my beliefs, I couldn’t honestly defend what I believed anymore.

Calvinism requires that God determine all things but then want to deny that view would require that He also determine all sin and evil.

God did determine all things, and I don’t know how you can see it any other way. I don’t know how God can truly be sovereign if God has to adjust His plan according to what man does. In other words, God wanted plan A to happen but didn’t expect that man wouldn’t to go along with it; now He has to reverse course and come up with plan B. If I want to call that sovereign, then I’m not being honest with myself.

As far as God being responsible for evil, of course I don’t believe that. That being said, yes, God did ordain the fall of Adam, but He did it in such a way that doesn’t make Him the author of evil. We see many parts involved. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The serpent in the garden. Eve giving the fruit to Adam. It’s a concept that Christians have always struggled with, but I find the alternative view to be even scarier. That is, God knew about all the evil that was going to happen in the world, but there’s no rhyme or reason why it happens. There is much more comfort in knowing that He has a purpose for it. We may not know what that is in this life, but ultimately it will be for the greater good.

Now under your calvinistic approach we see that God has determined all those choices and thus man in actual fact is not responsible for them as he could not do other than what God had determined for him to do.

Because man is fallen, man can only do what they desire to do, which is sin. Sometimes the specific sin is more egregious than others. Sometimes God simply lifts His hand of restraint and lets a person do what they already have the desire to do in the first place and are still going to be judged on that basis. All for His purposes.

Even your faith has to be given to you after you are saved, an unbiblical view I might add.

I don’t believe a person is saved before they have faith. Even though a person might be predestined to have faith, they are still a child of wrath until that happens.

Under a limited free will man has the God given ability to make real choices regarding his salvation. He can choose to accept or reject God and is held responsible for those real choices. This is the biblical view which is supported by numerous verses. Rom 1:16, Jn 3:15-16, Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9-10, Rom 10:13 etc.

If you wanted to know what our free will looks like without God’s intervention, then every single one of us would always reject God’s invitation to salvation 100% of the time. I don’t have a problem with any of those verses you cited. I would only add that those acts of faith can only happen after they first have been regenerated.

You make the comment "if God observes that we first choose to accept Him before He chooses us, it can lead you into the trap of works-based salvation" but that comment flies in the face of scripture.

Does a person have to will themselves to have faith if they decide that they really want it, or does God have to give it to them as a gift? The way I see it, only one of those choices can line up with Scripture.

Romans 9:16 (ESV)
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Ephesians 2:8 (ESV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.

 

[Zaatar71]

Isa 42:1 (NKJV) "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

No one denies That Jesus is the Elect servant. That does not mean that individuals are not also elect.

Joh_6:56 (NKJV) "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

Joh_15:5 (NKJV) "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

2Co_5:21 (NKJV) For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Php 3:8 (NKJV) Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
Php 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

Z contrary to you I believe the word of God. You on the other hand believe what some calvinist teachers tell you the word of God means.

Christ is the elect one and when we are in Him then and only then are we part of the elect.

Z you look and still repeat the same error over and over. I have pointed out your errors but you will not trust the truth of God's word. You look but refuse to see.

I can only show you the truth, I can’t make you believe it

You are far away from truth, so you cannot really help anyone, you need to help yourself first.

 

[Silverhair]

I can’t speak for other Calvinists, but I never approached the Bible with any preconceived notions. In fact, there was a time when I would probably agree with many of the things you’re saying now. But, when my positions were challenged by Calvinists, and was forced to think through my beliefs, I couldn’t honestly defend what I believed anymore.

Then I would have to say that you did not even understand what you believed. Calvinism may seem to be biblical but it falls short whan held up against the word of God.

God did determine all things, and I don’t know how you can see it any other way. I don’t know how God can truly be sovereign if God has to adjust His plan according to what man does. In other words, God wanted plan A to happen but didn’t expect that man wouldn’t to go along with it; now He has to reverse course and come up with plan B. If I want to call that sovereign, then I’m not being honest with myself.

Because the bible does not support that view.

Why do calvinists have such a hard time understanding the Omniscience of God.

As far as God being responsible for evil, of course I don’t believe that. That being said, yes, God did ordain the fall of Adam, but He did it in such a way that doesn’t make Him the author of evil. We see many parts involved. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The serpent in the garden. Eve giving the fruit to Adam. It’s a concept that Christians have always struggled with, but I find the alternative view to be even scarier. That is, God knew about all the evil that was going to happen in the world, but there’s no rhyme or reason why it happens. There is much more comfort in knowing that He has a purpose for it. We may not know what that is in this life, but ultimately it will be for the greater good.

If you hold to God determining all things then you have no option but to say that God is the author of all evil. Or do you believe that man can do other than what God has determined for him to do?

Because man is fallen, man can only do what they desire to do, which is sin. Sometimes the specific sin is more egregious than others. Sometimes God simply lifts His hand of restraint and lets a person do what they already have the desire to do in the first place and are still going to be judged on that basis. All for His purposes.

But even the desires of the man have been determined by your deterministic version of God. That seems to be the blind spot of calvinists or they just want to ignore that truth as then they would have to admit their view is flawed.

I don’t believe a person is saved before they have faith. Even though a person might be predestined to have faith, they are still a child of wrath until that happens.

Then you are in disagreement with main line calvinism on both points.

If you wanted to know what our free will looks like without God’s intervention, then every single one of us would always reject God’s invitation to salvation 100% of the time. I don’t have a problem with any of those verses you cited. I would only add that those acts of faith can only happen after they first have been regenerated.

You are basing that on misunderstood verses. God holds man responsible for what under your view? It can't be the sin that He determined for them to do as that would make God unjust.

If one is regenerated then you have them saved before they have believed. Regeneration means to be made anew in other words born again and that only happens when someone believes.

Does a person have to will themselves to have faith if they decide that they really want it, or does God have to give it to them as a gift? The way I see it, only one of those choices can line up with Scripture.

Romans 9:16 (ESV)
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Ephesians 2:8 (ESV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.

God has mercy on those that believe. If you are using Eph 2:8 to support your view then it shows that you do not understand that verse. The gift of God is salvation by His grace due to our faith.

We see this again here
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Silverhair]

No one denies That Jesus is the Elect servant. That does not mean that individuals are not also elect.

We are elect when we are in Christ Jesus the Elect One. Not before as you seem to think

You are far away from truth, so you cannot really help anyone, you need to help yourself first.

So you do not believe the word of God.

 

[Zaatar71]

We are elect when we are in Christ Jesus the Elect One. Not before as you seem to think



So you do not believe the word of God.

Are you a brand new professed Christian. I saw your screen name Silverhair, it suggested you were an older person. However it looks as if you are learning. Is that the case?

 

[Zaatar71]

Why do calvinists have such a hard time understanding the Omniscience of God.

maybe you could help us, by explaining it for us???

 

[Tea]

@Silverhair

I feel like I could try to explain my beliefs 100 different ways but we will always come to a stalemate. I’ll leave it to the Holy Spirit to continue to guide both of us to the truth.

 

[Zaatar71]

We are elect when we are in Christ Jesus the Elect One. Not before as you seem to think

Where did you get this instruction as to the timing of when we become elect Silverhair?
Did we first love God and choose Him?
Or did God Love us, and choose us?
If God loved us, Did he do it on purpose ,or was it somehow an accident?

So you do not believe the word of God.

Do you think it is strange that you and JohnC suggest I and other Calvinists, do not believe the word of God?
Other people here do not agree with what we post, but somehow they do not suggest what you do!
Do you have the spiritual gift of discouragement?

 

[Silverhair]

Are you a brand new professed Christian. I saw your screen name Silverhair, it suggested you were an older person. However it looks as if you are learning. Is that the case?

Have been a Christian for over 60 yrs. I grew up during the time when we we taught that the word of God was the final authoring for faith and practice.

Now it seems that many will follow their favorite teachers no matter if they teach the word of God or their own version of the word of God.

I have seen way to many calvinists twist God's word and or redefine words etc to see that as a truly biblical view. They get some things right but way to many things wrong.

 

[Silverhair]

maybe you could help us, by explaining it for us???

infinite knowledge

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair

I feel like I could try to explain my beliefs 100 different ways but we will always come to a stalemate. I’ll leave it to the Holy Spirit to continue to guide both of us to the truth.

As we both know there is only one truth. That truth is to be found in the word of God.
We will continue to grow as we continue to seek the truth of His word.

 

[Zaatar71]

Have been a Christian for over 60 yrs. I grew up during the time when we we taught that the word of God was the final authoring for faith and practice.

Do you know that is what Calvinists believe? see here;
THE LONDON BAPTIST
CONFESSION OF 1689
Chapter 1
Of the Holy Scriptures
1 The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible arule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light bof nature, and the works of creationand providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation. c Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in
divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and after-ward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto dwriting; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God’s revealing his will unto
his people being now ceased.
( a 2Ti 3:15-17; Isa 8:20; Luk 16:29,31; Eph 2:20; b Rom 1:19-21; 2:14-15;Psa 19:1-3; c Heb 1:1; d Pro 22:19-21; Rom 15:4; 2Pe 1:19-20)

Now it seems that many will follow their favorite teachers no matter if they teach the word of God or their own version of the word of God.

Who are your favorite teachers?

I have seen way to many calvinists twist God's word and or redefine words etc to see that as a truly biblical view.

Can you give examples of this twisting? Are you sure it is twisting, or is it putting verses in Context?

They get some things right but way to many things wrong.

Could you list maybe ten things they get wrong?

 

[Zaatar71]

infinite knowledge

Okay, Knowledge of What as it relates to what we read described in scripture? What passages tell us of God's knowledge/ If a person questioned you on it, how would you help clarify that large word?

 

[DaveXR650]

Dr. Flowers, on his site, has a good, short video from about a month ago where he has a couple of young guys on and they are talking about the pipeline that leads young people into Calvinism. If you watch the video both of the youngsters and Dr. Flowers himself tell the reason they got into Calvinism. They all say that they were drawn to the deeper, more serious and profound preaching they experienced from Calvinists as opposed to shallow, man centered, and gimmick filled teaching and church practice. Don't believe me, look at the video yourself, on Soteriology 101.

This is exactly what happened with me when I started reading Puritans. But it was not the brilliant metaphysical debate over predestination or the discussions of Augustine vs Pelagius that you hear on the internet - it was those practical works of Bunyan and Owen et al, also Baxter, who many Calvinists consider a heretic that were of help to me. And I seriously urge you guys who are not so filled with animosity towards anything Calvinist to take a look at these writings.

Bunyan wrote "The Strait Gate", which is of course how you have to strive to enter in or suffer disaster on the day of judgement. There you find teaching which is directly opposed to the perception you guys have of Calvinistic determinism. It seems legalistic to our modern ears, yet he also asserts the idea of election, and faith as being given and all of grace. But it is done in a way that is completely beyond the way the modern internet experts debate it. Read for yourself, or not. And don't give me the "I only use the word of God" routine. You cannot read two sentences of a work of Bunyan without encountering scripture proof along with the reference.

It is true that when we read someone's writing we are getting their pre-conceived thinking mixed in. But it's also true of you too, when you read scripture. To act like you and you alone can properly understand without even considering the opinion of anyone else, in my opinion says more about the effects on all of us in living in our age of self esteem, or the age of the common man. That you could blow off Augustine or Owen or Wesley or Baxter for that matter without even a hearing is astounding to me.

And, I'll say it again, it's also astounding that Dr. Flowers seems to do this too, especially since I know he is aware of these writings. It is frustrating when he knowingly leaves out things he would have to know while allowing false arguments against Calvinism to stand. I might expect that from a 23 year old internet guy but not from him if he is being truthful about his background as a teacher of Calvinism.

 

[Silverhair]

Where did you get this instruction as to the timing of when we become elect Silverhair?
Did we first love God and choose Him?
Or did God Love us, and choose us?
If God loved us, Did he do it on purpose ,or was it somehow an accident?

From scripture.
Joh 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Have you not read Jn 3:16-17. God loves the whole world.

God's love was not an accident as He created all things as you should know.

But the fact He loved us does not mean that all will be saved or that He picked out certain ones to be saved as you seem think. What He did was provide the various means by which we could know Him and gave man the free will with which to choose to trust in or reject Him.

Do you think it is strange that you and JohnC suggest I and other Calvinists, do not believe the word of God?
Other people here do not agree with what we post, but somehow they do not suggest what you do!
Do you have the spiritual gift of discouragement?

I ask if you believe the word of God because I see so many times that calvinists will ignore what it says or twist the words.

I can point to just a recent post where you seem to have ignored His word.

Why Provisionism Is Not Biblical

I will when God gives you eyesight..until then , you look to repeat error over and over. I cannot help that. You look but do not see. Isa 42:1 (NKJV) "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the...

www.baptistboard.com

I have had my Christian views questioned many times on this board.

I pray for discernment all the time. You will have to point out where you found that "gift of discouragement" in scripture. We are told to be a source of correction for those that are being misled by false doctrines. The man-made doctrines that come from the 4th century may sound good to some but they do not comport with scripture so I point out the errors.

I can only point you to the the truth, the word of God, I cannot make you believe it.

 

[Tea]

The man-made doctrines that come from the 4th century may sound good to some but they do not comport with scripture so I point out the errors.

Can you please explain what you mean by this, @Silverhair? What 4th century doctrines?

 

[Zaatar71]

Dr. Flowers, on his site, has a good, short video from about a month ago where he has a couple of young guys on and they are talking about the pipeline that leads young people into Calvinism. If you watch the video both of the youngsters and Dr. Flowers himself tell the reason they got into Calvinism. They all say that they were drawn to the deeper, more serious and profound preaching they experienced from Calvinists as opposed to shallow, man centered, and gimmick filled teaching and church practice. Don't believe me, look at the video yourself, on Soteriology 101.

This is exactly what happened with me when I started reading Puritans. But it was not the brilliant metaphysical debate over predestination or the discussions of Augustine vs Pelagius that you hear on the internet - it was those practical works of Bunyan and Owen et al, also Baxter, who many Calvinists consider a heretic that were of help to me. And I seriously urge you guys who are not so filled with animosity towards anything Calvinist to take a look at these writings.

Bunyan wrote "The Strait Gate", which is of course how you have to strive to enter in or suffer disaster on the day of judgement. There you find teaching which is directly opposed to the perception you guys have of Calvinistic determinism. It seems legalistic to our modern ears, yet he also asserts the idea of election, and faith as being given and all of grace. But it is done in a way that is completely beyond the way the modern internet experts debate it. Read for yourself, or not. And don't give me the "I only use the word of God" routine. You cannot read two sentences of a work of Bunyan without encountering scripture proof along with the reference.

It is true that when we read someone's writing we are getting their pre-conceived thinking mixed in. But it's also true of you too, when you read scripture. To act like you and you alone can properly understand without even considering the opinion of anyone else, in my opinion says more about the effects on all of us in living in our age of self esteem, or the age of the common man. That you could blow off Augustine or Owen or Wesley or Baxter for that matter without even a hearing is astounding to me.

And, I'll say it again, it's also astounding that Dr. Flowers seems to do this too, especially since I know he is aware of these writings. It is frustrating when he knowingly leaves out things he would have to know while allowing false arguments against Calvinism to stand. I might expect that from a 23 year old internet guy but not from him if he is being truthful about his background as a teacher of Calvinism.

Those who rail against Calvinism for the most part, do not read These works, and they are the ones who rush into the lead telling us not to read the works of Old Dead saints. Then they want you too listen to their ignorant ideas instead. Why would their words be ignorant?
They want to be critical of older saints, but any examination of the puritans immediately shows they were word centered in a way that few are today
many times they were long winded, and those who only can read a meme of bumper sticker before becoming weary, will never understand the benefits of such study.