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Why Should I Feel Threatened by Gay Marriage?
- Thread starter npc
- Start date
Wow, at first I thought you were being sarcastic because the post so completely missed the point. Please explain my earlier question on why the government should pay special attention to gay sinners by denying them marriage, as opposed to atheists or criminals. </font>[/QUOTE]Because the commonly held definition of Marriage for all of history has been between a man and a woman. You are willing to throw out centuries of history and replace the Tradition of Marriage and the Institution of Marriage for a tiny minority of the population who thinks sexual abnormality is Normal and Moral.
Yes, that's how I feel about your comments as well!
Patrick </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry, that's not how debating works. If you think I'm committing a logical fallacy then tell me where. If you're right, I'll try to fix it. </font>[/QUOTE]Your arguments aren't logical but I don't have to keep repeating the coutnerpoints you don't understand.
Patrick
There's nothing new under the sun. The problem of homosexuality has been with us since the beginning. It is still just as wrong today as it was in old times. Here's some of what God's word has to say about homosexual conduct.
Patrick
Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
Romans 1:26-28 "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"
Patrick
Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
Romans 1:26-28 "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"
T
TisHerself
Guest
So, instead of letting God tend to his business with sinners you feel the need to punish the sinners yourself by passing laws to keep them from doing something they want to do? Something that hurts no one and does nothing to diminish the union of men and women?
This is God's business, this business of punishment. Our business here on Earth is to be kind to everyone.
As with all things, God has given you free will. You can exhault yourself and meddle in things that are God's concern and ONLY God's concern, or you can be kind to your brothers and sisters who happen, for some yet unknown reason, to be homosexual.
Frankly, I prefer to err on the side of caution and know my place. I have never acted in a bigoted manner towards homosexuals and I'm not starting now. You can lobby all you want for laws that are really none of your business.
I remember as a child a common phrase when faced with a bully was "Who died and left you God?"
I feel that way right now.
Frankly, I prefer to err on the side of caution and know my place. I have never acted in a bigoted manner towards homosexuals and I'm not starting now. You can lobby all you want for laws that are really none of your business.
</font>[/QUOTE]Is condemning sin according to God's Word now considered bigotry?
T
TisHerself
Guest
Frankly, I prefer to err on the side of caution and know my place. I have never acted in a bigoted manner towards homosexuals and I'm not starting now. You can lobby all you want for laws that are really none of your business.
</font>[/QUOTE]Is condemning sin according to God's Word now considered bigotry? </font>[/QUOTE]You should condemn sin! Absolutely! But that is not saying you should act foolishly and condemn the sinner as well! Don't throw the baby out with the bath water is all I'm saying. You have no idea what God has in store for these poor people who have been dealt something we don't understand. What if God has a plan to bring all homosexuals into his fold? What if by virtue of your loveless actions those people decide that Christianity is not for them? If you want that on your shoulders and on your conscience, go for it. I'm just saying it's far better to love the sinner and hate the sin than to take matters into your own hands. We should be offering love and friendship to these poor souls, not making their lives all the more unbearable. Would you do that to an alcoholic? Would you do that to a theif?
As a Christian, I've thought about this long and hard, and come to the following conclusion:
I'm against the civil recognition in the US of marriage between anything other than one male and one female of consenting age. However, I'm not threatened by gay marriage. If the US legalizes gay marriage, it will not infringe on my own personal religious liberty. I'm no more threatened by it than I am of a marriage between, say, atheists. The civil definition of marriage has never been on a par with the what I believe to be the scriptural covenant of marriage. One does not define the other.
However, one should not think that, just because I don't think I'm not threatened by it, doesn't mean I'm in favor of it.
Frankly, I prefer to err on the side of caution and know my place. I have never acted in a bigoted manner towards homosexuals and I'm not starting now. You can lobby all you want for laws that are really none of your business.
</font>[/QUOTE]Is condemning sin according to God's Word now considered bigotry? </font>[/QUOTE]You should condemn sin! Absolutely! But that is not saying you should act foolishly and condemn the sinner as well! Don't throw the baby out with the bath water is all I'm saying. You have no idea what God has in store for these poor people who have been dealt something we don't understand. What if God has a plan to bring all homosexuals into his fold? What if by virtue of your loveless actions those people decide that Christianity is not for them? If you want that on your shoulders and on your conscience, go for it. I'm just saying it's far better to love the sinner and hate the sin than to take matters into your own hands. We should be offering love and friendship to these poor souls, not making their lives all the more unbearable. Would you do that to an alcoholic? Would you do that to a theif? </font>[/QUOTE]Get off your high horse. I have not condemned the homosexual sinner. I don't know anyone here who has.
Our business here on earth is to glorify Christ in all that we do. We are obligated to be kind to one another but we're also obligated to stand against sinful behavior. The reason for homosexuality is known and has been known since old times. It is the result of sin in mankind - sin passed down to us through Adam - just like all the other evil things we do. It is rebellion against God's natural design. It is strongly condemned in God's word. Enacting, enforcing, and supporting a framework of basic civil law that upholds family structure - specifically marriage - according to God's design is very important for our society. That does involve "meddling" in some sense in that what others do affects us all in our society. Doing so does not "exalt" any of us, doesn't make us "bigots" or "bullies", and doesn't imply that we must "hate" or violently persecute homosexuals. We are all sinners but we are all citizens with a duty to our fellow citizens and especially to those that follow us in future generations. Shirking that duty and pretending there is no problem is, in effect, the same thing as supporting the evils we should stand against. That action - or lack of action - will bring the wrath of God upon us all.
Patrick
T
TisHerself
Guest
As a Christian, I've thought about this long and hard, and come to the following conclusion:
I'm against the civil recognition in the US of marriage between anything other than one male and one female of consenting age. However, I'm not threatened by gay marriage. If the US legalizes gay marriage, it will not infringe on my own personal religious liberty. I'm no more threatened by it than I am of a marriage between, say, atheists. The civil definition of marriage has never been on a par with the what I believe to be the scriptural covenant of marriage. One does not define the other.
However, one should not think that, just because I don't think I'm not threatened by it, doesn't mean I'm in favor of it. </font>[/QUOTE]Bless you, Johnv! Brilliantly said! Now THAT is a fine Christian attitude! You don't have to agree with anything... no one is forcing homosexuality upon you in any way. I'm not in favor of it either and I wish things were different. But there is not a thing any of us can do about it! It has been happening since the beginning of time and it will no doubt continue on until the end of time. What we do inbetween those two markers of time is what I'm concerned with. If we bully people into seeing things our way, the changes of them rebelling is great and the chances of us changing anything is quite small, if existant at all.
T
TisHerself
Guest
Our business here on earth is to glorify Christ in all that we do. We are obligated to be kind to one another but we're also obligated to stand against sinful behavior. The reason for homosexuality is known and has been known since old times. It is the result of sin in mankind - sin passed down to us through Adam - just like all the other evil things we do. It is rebellion against God's natural design. It is strongly condemned in God's word. Enacting, enforcing, and supporting a framework of basic civil law that upholds family structure - specifically marriage - according to God's design is very important for our society. That does involve "meddling" in some sense in that what others do affects us all in our society. Doing so does not "exalt" any of us, doesn't make us "bigots" or "bullies", and doesn't imply that we must "hate" or violently persecute homosexuals. We are all sinners but we are all citizens with a duty to our fellow citizens and especially to those that follow us in future generations. Shirking that duty and pretending there is no problem is, in effect, the same thing as supporting the evils we should stand against. That action - or lack of action - will bring the wrath of God upon us all.
Patrick </font>[/QUOTE]Whatever, Patrick. No one is asking you to embrace homosexuality or any other sin for that matter. What we should be doing is embracing the sinner. By that we do not condone their actions but recognize that they are children of God every bit as much as we are and should be treated the same. No one is saying you have to vote FOR anything. I just think it's sinful vengence to impose your own beliefs on someone else.
As it has been pointed out many, many times, this behavior has been with us since the beginning of time. If you think your laws are going to change anything, you are sadly mistaken. So go ahead and hate gays. Go for it. It is your right. Just don't be surprised if you are chastised by God for being a hater instead of a steadfast rock that a person in need can lean on.
TisHerself,
It is a big jump from saying that Homosexuality is a Sin or that any Action is a Sin to actually being ProActive in the Church by Celebrating that sin or condoning it.
I personally have had homosexuals who were members of my church. We did not treat them differently from other members.
No person who is living openly in sin is qualified to be a church leader, be it alcoholism, wife abuse, or thievery. All should be held accountable for the Church and called to task for their sins.
It is a big jump from saying that Homosexuality is a Sin or that any Action is a Sin to actually being ProActive in the Church by Celebrating that sin or condoning it.
I personally have had homosexuals who were members of my church. We did not treat them differently from other members.
No person who is living openly in sin is qualified to be a church leader, be it alcoholism, wife abuse, or thievery. All should be held accountable for the Church and called to task for their sins.
T
TisHerself
Guest
Who said anything about celebrating sin??? That is rediculous! I've never said any such thing!
What I want to celebrate is a human life. A child of God. Now, I don't know if that lifestyle is a chosen path or not, I don't think so. Who would want that kind of persecution?? But I'll never, ever say I am better than a homosexual either. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. If you break one commandment, you may as well have broken them all. We all need the compassion of our brothers and sisters! It's not fair to pick and choose.
What's being advanced by some is the idea that giving homosexuals the "right" to marry is acceptable because it brings about no harm to anyone else. I disagree with that. Homosexual conduct of all forms is harmful to all of society. Civil law that would equate gay "marriage" to legimate marriage would open the door to further moral decay. Presently, there is no "right" to gay "marriage" in our civil law and we need to keep it that way. It is you, and others with your view, that want change. I want it to stay the way it's been.
All sinful behavior has been with us since Adam! God's word makes clear where homosexual behavior stands. Laws have also been with us a long time. They do make a difference. They provide a framework of justice whereby individuals do not have to take matters into their own hands. Do you advocate that we have no civil law following the logic that they make no difference. Do you merely advocate that we eliminate - change - the laws we have against gay "marriage"?
You should read more carefully what was written. No one, so far, except you - definitely not me - has suggested hating sinners and specifically homosexual sinners. Are you purposefully misquoting what's been written in order to justify your own feelings?
Patrick
Plain Old Bill
New Member
It has always been hate the sin and love the sinners.You cannot condone sinful behavior.You especially cannot give sinful behavior a liscense which is what "a gay marriage " would be. Is anyone here proposing that pastors perform these ceremonies?
Have our more liberal minded brothers and sisters done much study about what the Bible has to say about homosexual behavior?If you have that should be enough to settle in your mind that there is no such thing as a God sanctioned homosexual marriage.
Have our more liberal minded brothers and sisters done much study about what the Bible has to say about homosexual behavior?If you have that should be enough to settle in your mind that there is no such thing as a God sanctioned homosexual marriage.
Who said anything about celebrating sin??? That is rediculous! I've never said any such thing!
What I want to celebrate is a human life. A child of God. Now, I don't know if that lifestyle is a chosen path or not, I don't think so. Who would want that kind of persecution?? But I'll never, ever say I am better than a homosexual either. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. If you break one commandment, you may as well have broken them all. We all need the compassion of our brothers and sisters! It's not fair to pick and choose. </font>[/QUOTE]How is affirming homosexual marriage not celebrating it within the framework of the Church and the Christian life?