Why should the 1689 Confession of faith be used?

[SovereignGrace]

CautiousCautiousCautiousRolleyes

I've put him on the clock. Lullz...

 

[SovereignGrace]

DHK, you could find an online CoF that is close to your church's and paste it. Then tell us what you agree and disgree with that one.

FYI, I started another thread in the Cal/Armin forum about 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 if you want to address it. Thanks.

 

[Internet Theologian]

I've put him on the clock. Lullz...

 

[agedman]

Yes...I never said he said the bible, I said the preface to the 1689 states the 'things most surely believed among us"...that is those who are confessional.

By "confessional" I assume those who were of the "Puritan" stock.

The "Church of England" was and always has been in error, and no matter the efforts of the Puritans to clean it up, it remains in error for it was started in error.

So, although I have a high regard for the C of F 1689, perhaps my objections are more toward what the group that wrote the document represented more than the document itself. Some of the earliest confessions written by members of the Separatists are most intriguing because those of the same Biblical understanding as the puritans yet separated from the church of England were not only intellectually strong, but had far more Christlike character than the Puritans.

So, I read the C of F 1689, and were I agree with it, I agree, but where I don't, I try to lay out exactly why.

For example: Do you agree with the Sabbath statement as it is written?

 

[Iconoclast]

By "confessional" I assume those who were of the "Puritan" stock.

The "Church of England" was and always has been in error, and no matter the efforts of the Puritans to clean it up, it remains in error for it was started in error.

So, although I have a high regard for the C of F 1688, perhaps my objections are more toward what the group that wrote the document represented more than the document itself. Some of the earliest confessions written by members of the Separatists are most intriguing because those of the same Biblical understanding as the puritans yet separated from the church of England were not only intellectually strong, but had far more Christlike character than the Puritans.

So, I read the C of F 1688, and were I agree with it, I agree, but where I don't, I try to lay out exactly why.

For example: Do you agree with the Sabbath statement as it is written?

I believe in the 10 commandments being in the believers heart by new birth, so I do believe in the one day in seven rest, the Lord's day.....not the mosaic sabbath, but the NT Lord's day.

I believe this; from a Baptist catechism with Commentary, by WR. Downing;

One must work before he can rest. Six days are the God–given time– frame for work. Note that six days of work are not necessarily commanded, but rather that all man’s work is to be done within six days that he might rest on the seventh: The opening words “Six days shalt thou labour…” must not be arbitrarily separated from the remainder of the statement, “…and do all thy work,” implying a six–day time–frame for work that the Sabbath might remain separate as a day of rest. The weekly Sabbath was not the only “Sabbath” that God commanded Israel to observe. There were weekly (Ex. 20:8–11; Deut. 5:12–15), monthly (Numb. 28:11–15; Rom. 14:5–6) and yearly Sabbaths (Ex. 12:1–20, 43–50; Lev. 23:15–44; Numb. 28:16–25; 29:1–40), one observed every seven years (Ex. 23:10–11; Lev. 25:1–7, 18–22; 2 Chron. 36:20–21) and one observed every fifty years (Lev. 25:8–18). Some were purely rest–days, some were feast–days and some were days of corporate worship. To correctly understand the full significance of the weekly Sabbath, one must understand the whole Sabbath–principle commanded by God. The following is a short study on the various “Sabbaths”: The Sabbath–principle of Israel was a principle of rest for man, animals and the land, instituted by God. It looked back to creation and Israel’s deliverance from Egypt, looked to God in covenant–relationship and looked ahead prophetically to the redemption of the whole creation. This principle was also a principle of celebration. Both typically anticipated the redemption– rest in the Lord Jesus Christ and in future glory (Deut. 5:12–15; Rom. 8:18– 23; Heb. 4:1–11; 2 Pet. 3:7–18). To be biblical and consistent, one must make a distinction between the provisional [ceremonial, civil] and the perpetual: The Sabbath [rest and
101
worship]–principle is perpetual, as reflected in both God’s creation–rest (Gen. 2:2–3; Ex. 20:11) and the need for man to rest, i.e., “the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath” (Mk. 2:27). The Sabbath–principle points ahead to the redemptive rest in the Lord Jesus Christ (Deut. 5:12–15; Heb. 4:1–11. Note that Heb. 4:9 literally reads “a Sabbath rest” in the Gk.), and so has a typical significance which will find complete fulfillment in the final redemption of man and the earth, when the Sabbath rest of God and man shall find its ultimate realization (Rom. 8:18–23; 2 Pet. 3:13). What, then, in essence, is the perpetual and ultimate significance of the Sabbath? The Sabbath is described as “the Sabbath of the Lord God,” i.e., his Sabbath and is traced back to his primeval rest of celebration, accomplishment, satisfaction [“all was very good”] and anticipation (Gen. 2:1–3). The national or covenant significance to Israel was both temporary and typological (Ex. 16:25–30; 23:10–12; 31:13–17; Deut. 5:12–15), awaiting its true and full significance among believers within the New or Gospel Covenant (Heb. 4:1–11). Believers are now brought into union with Christ and so rejoice in his finished redemptive work and spiritually “rest” by faith in him. We celebrate our glorious salvation. Note the anticipation of that “[Sabbath–]rest which remaineth for the people of God” (Heb. 4:9). We await our future glorification (Rom. 8:14–23) and the restoration of all creation which, again, will render everything pristine and “very good” in the creation of “new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness” (2 Pet. 3:7–13). With creation ultimately and infallibly restored, and the elect of God finally and fully redeemed, the full and final rest of God will be accomplished.

The Sabbath then, ought to be a celebration of our redemption, a delight, a rest, both physical and spiritual and an anticipation of that glory which is to come. Such thoughts ought to sanctify and make the Lord’s Day a delight. While it is true that in neither the Old or New Testaments did God explicitly change the weekly Sabbath from the seventh to the first day, since the resurrection of our Lord, Christians have met on the first day of the week (Matt. 28:1; Acts 2:1ff; 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2; Rev. 1:10). It was our Lord’s resurrection–day, the Day of Pentecost, which marked out the New Testament church as God’s ordained institution for this Gospel economy by the empowering of the Spirit; and anticipates the full and final restoration of all things, of which his resurrection was but the first declaration. The first day (traditionally “Sunday”) thus distinguishes Christian worship from Jewish worship. This was the inspired apostolic practice throughout the New Testament. Thus, observing the first day of the week as the Lord’s Day is not merely traditional; it is implicitly and explicitly biblical (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2). Have you found that promised rest in the Lord Jesus? Do you find the Lord’s Day a delight? Do you take time to anticipate and rejoice in the coming Sabbath of creation?

Some who resist the teaching right away suggest we are to go back under Mosaic theology, which is absurd, but they need an excuse to be disobedient.

 

[agedman]

Where do you find a temple being built on terra firma after God used Rome to tear it down circa 70AD?

The temple that Rome tore down does not fit the statements of these prophets concerning the future temple. For example, just the "courts" of the temple are approximately one square mile. Far larger than any OT temple, and more especially the one Rome pulled down. The holy area is nearly 5o square miles, again far larger than any built to date.

Ezekiel 40 - 48.
Joel 3
Isaiah 2, and 30
Daniel 9
Haggia 2

The fact that Ezekiel was given extremely specific dimensions and instructions and non of the temples fit those dimensions, and that such detailed instructions are like that given for the tabernacle and the building of the Temple under Solomon, it follows that this is an extremely special building. One that the Jews continue to look forward to, and are actively gathering in preparation to build.

I have never read the "left behind" series. Does it have the building of a temple in it?

 

[agedman]

I believe in the 10 commandments being in the believers heart by new birth, so I do believe in the one day in seven rest, the Lord's day.....not the mosaic sabbath, but the NT Lord's day.

I believe this; from a Baptist catechism with Commentary, by WR. Downing;

A part of the confession states:

As it is the law of nature, that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, be set apart for the worship of God, so by his Word, in a positive moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy unto him, which from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ was changed into the first day of the week, which is called the Lord's day: and is to be continued to the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week being abolished.​

Two reflections:
First, I don't consider it as part of the "law of nature" for no animal rests on the Sabbath or has a care about any day of the week.
Second, the commandment of the Mosaic law did not "bind all men in all ages." It bound the Jews and those who resided in the country of the Jews or with the Jews, only.

The very next section states:

The sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering their common affairs aforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all day, from their own works, words and thoughts, about their worldly employment and recreations, but are also taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.​

For the Puritans, being the writers of the document, were most careful to punish anyone who "broke" what they considered was the Sabbath honors.

More to the point, do you know of any church that holds to the 1689 confession that would not in some manner violate what the writers (Puritans) held as honorable in the "public and private exercises of his worship?"

What church does not spend time before and after the service engaging in silly talking, and mindless jesting?

What person purges their mind of worldly employment and recreation for the whole Sabbath?

Would that I could find such an assembly!


The Pilgrims considered things a bit differently than the Puritans and their worship reflected some of that thinking. Very little is left of the public record but John Winthrop recorded the typical worship of the early Pilgrims, and I do wish I could have been an eye witness to their devotion.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The temple that Rome tore down does not fit the statements of these prophets concerning the future temple. For example, just the "courts" of the temple are approximately one square mile. Far larger than any OT temple, and more especially the one Rome pulled down. The holy area is nearly 5o square miles, again far larger than any built to date.

Ezekiel 40 - 48.
Joel 3
Isaiah 2, and 30
Daniel 9
Haggia 2

The fact that Ezekiel was given extremely specific dimensions and instructions and non of the temples fit those dimensions, and that such detailed instructions are like that given for the tabernacle and the building of the Temple under Solomon, it follows that this is an extremely special building. One that the Jews continue to look forward to, and are actively gathering in preparation to build.

I have never read the "left behind" series. Does it have the building of a temple in it?

To be honest, the last chapters of Ezekiel, Daniel and most of Revelation give me fits. There are many passages of figurative language that explain Spiritual truths. In the 37th chapter of Ezekiel, we see him in a valley of very dry bones, and through prophesying as God commanded him to, these bones lived again. Now, was this an actual valley, or was it a vision he had that expressed a Spiritual truth that all that are to be saved, are like these dry bones were, dead and unable to do anything? Or was it a vision he had. I think(not dogmatic) this was a vision. Then in another chapter, Ezekiel wades in the water. Now, was this an actual river or was it a vision? I think it was a vision. Parlay that to Ezekiel 40-48 and it was a vision, and I don't really know enough to give to a proper answer, to be quite honest with you. There are many verses I just don't know about, and I don't pretend I do. I need to study Ezekiel, Daniel and Revelation in great detail now. Thanks for this.

Daniel's four beasts and Revelation's four beats, were they literal or are they figurative to express a biblical truth? I think they were figurative, but again, what little I do know, I am not dogmatic about it.

 

[Iconoclast]

agedman
.

Second, the commandment of the Mosaic law did not "bind all men in all ages." It bound the Jews and those who resided in the country of the Jews or with the Jews, only.

The 10 commandments were in effect before and after the Mosaic law,
Bringing Mosaic law into this confuses the issue,

The very next section states:

The sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering their common affairs aforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all day, from their own works, words and thoughts, about their worldly employment and recreations, but are also taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.​

For the Puritans, being the writers of the document, were most careful to punish anyone who "broke" what they considered was the Sabbath honors.

More to the point, do you know of any church that holds to the 1689 confession that would not in some manner violate what the writers (Puritans) held as honorable in the "public and private exercises of his worship?"

What church does not spend time before and after the service engaging in silly talking, and mindless jesting?

What person purges their mind of worldly employment and recreation for the whole Sabbath?

Would that I could find such an assembly!

Hello agedman,

The link I offered answers your first question, but I found these questions more intriguing.

Again I have been in a few assemblies where people follow this pattern.
Are they sinlessly perfect....no. They are well taught and biblically active Christians.
The first time my wife and I attended one such church we had 4 invitations to dinner before we hung up our coats.
They also provided a church meal and time of fellowship for visitors where several of the men would go over the morning sermon.
It was quite refreshing.
I fell asleep before finishing this last night so I will expand it a bit.
Many churches will do a nursing home ministry on the Lords day. I, we are commanded to "work" 6 days it is quite refreshing to have a day set aside for service to the Lord.
Works of necessity or mercy are always allowed.
Police work on the Lords day as criminals profane the Sabbath.
Doctors do surgery for victims, nurses care for the infirmed, etc.
The Lords day is a great time to practice biblical hospitality opening your home with gospel motives.

You asked;

What person purges their mind of worldly employment and recreation for the whole Sabbath?

This takes some work for sure....A visitor comes into the assembly and after the greeting starts rambling on and on about his job....or the college basketball playoffs...
What should we do? Shoot him? burn him at the stake? Tell him to shut up or we will call the Sabbath police on him?
No.. we can know that as a visitor he is trying to make polite conversation. We can prayerfully look to turn the conversation to spiritual things. We can ask him how he came to know the Lord....We can ask him which part of the sermon caught his interest?
If everyone in the church is instructed in this way, it will set a pattern that will slowly spread to others.....the idea is that the Lords day is to be a benefit to all. It is not a list of do's and don'ts...It is more a positive day......We get to worship and serve not WE HAVE TO!

If a woman visitor goes on and on about the sale she caught on the grocery store, or on craft supplies.....that might let you know what is on her mind and heart. You again seek to turn the conversation, perhaps ask her after she has shopped and cooked....how does she prepare her heart for a worship service....does she meditate on the psalms or other portions of scripture?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Anyone ever consider the Sermon on the Mount as a substitute for the afore mentioned COF.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Anyone ever consider the Sermon on the Mount as a substitute for the afore mentioned COF.

Not just that sermon, but all scripture trump any CoF as scripture is infallible, whereas a CoF is fallible. However, these CoF's give others an idea of what ppl believe.

 

[Iconoclast]

Anyone ever consider the Sermon on the Mount as a substitute for the afore mentioned COF.

The confession addresses 33 issues....the Sermon on the Mount is very important, but does not address the same issues...

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning

Sometime after 3pm Pacific time this thread will be closed

 

[ReformedBaptist]

So, in summary why the 1689 LBCF should be used...

Is because it's super awesome.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.

Six Hour Warning

Sometime after 3pm Pacific time this thread will be closed