Why Should We Wish to Make Baptists of our Protestant Brethren?

[Darrell C]

A question best posed in another thread in another forum.

I see no reason why a question that is specific to the OP needs to go into another forum. If it's okay for "the invisible universal church" and who would allow who in their church is acceptable, why a question related to the statement of the quote wouldn't be.

Perhaps you could explain that to me.


God bless.

 

[rsr]

It is a question either about Baptist theology or a general Baptist discussion. The OP had some connection to Baptist history; if you think too many on the BB are not really Baptist enough, it should be asked in a debate forum.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Concur.

It is a question either about Baptist theology or a general Baptist discussion. The OP had some connection to Baptist history; if you think too many on the BB are not really Baptist enough, it should be asked in a debate forum.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

So I ask just one question, am I alone in thinking that some of the "Baptists" here are too Reformed and too Protestant? And that they could stand to be more...Baptist? lol

To be 'Reformed' means to be seeking constantly to reform one's theology and practice in line with the word of God. Is it possible to do that too much?
To be 'Protestant' means to be in a state of protest against the doctrines of the Church of Rome. Is it possible to do that too much?

If you are going to denigrate people on this board by applying quotation marks to their Baptist profession then you need to define just what you think a Baptist is. How does one become more .......Baptist?

Also, I think that you have misunderstood the meaning of the extract from the 1646 Baptist Confession which you quoted; again, at the time Spurgeon died, A.T. Pierson was supplying the pulpit at Spurgeon's request while he convalesced. Pierson continued (with a break from June -December 1892) until Thomas Spurgeon took over the Pastorate from March 1893. I do not see that Pierson was ever elected to the pastorate.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

With regard to the O.P. and for your encouragement, the large evangelical Anglican church in the city of Exeter, UK no longer 'baptizes' infants but only adults. I think that within the next 2-3 years many churches will leave the Church of England. Many of those will probably remain Episcopalian under the oversight of one African Archbishop or another, but others, like the one in Exeter, will probably become independent baptistic churches. Also, most Congregational churches in England no longer 'baptize' babies. The one nearest to me hasn't done so for years.

More and more Reformed Christians (in the UK, at least) are seeing that infant 'baptism' is not according to the word of God.

 

[Darrell C]

It is a question either about Baptist theology or a general Baptist discussion. The OP had some connection to Baptist history; if you think too many on the BB are not really Baptist enough, it should be asked in a debate forum.

I am asking if I have understood the quote.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

To be 'Reformed' means to be seeking constantly to reform one's theology and practice in line with the word of God. Is it possible to do that too much?
To be 'Protestant' means to be in a state of protest against the doctrines of the Church of Rome. Is it possible to do that too much?

Yes. Because when we become too focused on the faults of others, we are distracted from our own faults.

Both "Reformed" and "Protestant" hold a correlation to anti-Catholicism. Not only is this true historically but it is apparent today. Key to being "Reformed" is understanding it is reformation, not revolution, which are two entirely different things.

If you are going to denigrate people on this board by applying quotation marks to their Baptist profession then you need to define just what you think a Baptist is. How does one become more .......Baptist?

I think the quote is a good place to start:

And it is not necessarily an arrogant and presumptuous thing in us if we strive to bring honored fellow-Christians to views which we honestly believe to be more scriptural, and therefore more wholesome. Apollos was an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, and Aquila and Priscilla were lowly people who doubtless admired him; yet they taught him the way of the Lord more perfectly, and no doubt greatly rejoiced that he was willing to learn. He who tries to win people from other denominations to his own distinctive views may be a sectarian bigot; but he may also be a humble and loving Christian.

It has nothing to do with "denigrating" people on this board, it has to do with something I have always associated with being a Baptist, which is something said of Baptists by other denominations, and that is a strong devotion to and understanding of the Word of God. This does not mean I dishonor those I discuss/debate with.

The intent in the quote seems to be to set the Protestant apart from the Baptist in a distinct way, which is something curious to me because I was under the impression that Baptists would in large part be considered "Protestant," in a general sense at least.

Also, I think that you have misunderstood the meaning of the extract from the 1646 Baptist Confession which you quoted;

Uh, Martin...that is why I inquired. It seems pretty obvious I am seeking clarification.

I don't often spend my time trying to understand the mindset of those from antiquity, because just as getting one's self too involved in sectarian dispute wastes valuable time, even so trying to emulate former men is.

The "Baptists" on this board are so diverse that it is hard to see all of them as Baptist, particularly from a perspective of one who has been a Baptist his entire walk with Christ in this modern Age.

And it is funny, there are "Baptists" teaching annihilation in the Baptist Only section, yet when a Baptist seeks clarification of a quote...the Staff is all over that.

again, at the time Spurgeon died, A.T. Pierson was supplying the pulpit at Spurgeon's request while he convalesced. Pierson continued (with a break from June -December 1892) until Thomas Spurgeon took over the Pastorate from March 1893. I do not see that Pierson was ever elected to the pastorate.

I have no idea how this is relevant to what I asked.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

With regard to the O.P. and for your encouragement, the large evangelical Anglican church in the city of Exeter, UK no longer 'baptizes' infants but only adults.

And I would see that as being more Baptist, and in line with the intent of the quote.

Would you agree?

And I see you understood my question, also.

I think that within the next 2-3 years many churches will leave the Church of England.

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of Church is yours, and what do you think about what you think might happen, if it does happen?

Are you of a mind to follow suit?

Many of those will probably remain Episcopalian under the oversight of one African Archbishop or another, but others, like the one in Exeter, will probably become independent baptistic churches

I actually have a Pastor friend who is Episcopal, and was recently shocked to find out he married two men. We have had discussions numerous times, and in large part we might be found to agree soteriologically, but there is a gap in Eschatology. I was floored, when I learned of his apparent position on marriage.

I have primarily gone to Independent Baptist Churches, which while they were not really an organized group (Meaning many churches organized together under one header), they were all in large part identical in their views, which would probably be termed Dispensational (a designation that is a four letter word for some). I attend those types of fellowships because when I direct someone to a fellowship while witnessing, I can be assured that Scripture is a prominent element in the discipling that will take place. That is just what I see as one Baptist Distinctive.

Also, most Congregational churches in England no longer 'baptize' babies. The one nearest to me hasn't done so for years.

I was shocked to learn some of the views of some Baptists in regards to this. Didn't know there were Baptists that felt infant baptism was more than a ritual. Recently spoke with both a Catholic and a Protestant who was reformed in his theology (the owner of the site in fact) who didn't realize just how closely their doctrine was.

And that is a problem I see occurring. Again, there is a difference between reformation and revolution, which in my view has the Baptist standing apart from both groups.

More and more Reformed Christians (in the UK, at least) are seeing that infant 'baptism' is not according to the word of God.

The author of the quote would be proud.

And seeing it is very clear I am not welcome here, and have had no response from the OP, have a good discussion.


God bless.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Instead of attempting to quantify "Baptist" & its many iterations....IE "Reformed" or "Primitive" or "Free Will" or "Fundamentalist" yada, yada, what about going back to the root of it all.....and read your bibles without all the baggage of what has become your own personal understanding......rather what does the holy spirit tell you about what the biblical text is telling you.

Anyway, that's where I am at.

 

[tyndale1946]

Instead of attempting to quantify "Baptist" & its many iterations....IE "Reformed" or "Primitive" or "Free Will" or "Fundamentalist" yada, yada, what about going back to the root of it all.....and read your bibles without all the baggage of what has become your own personal understanding......rather what does the holy spirit tell you about what the biblical text is telling you.

Anyway, that's where I am at.

I feel we let our denomination clarify who we are weather Baptist or Protestant... But putting that all aside "I am a child of God by God's Sovereign Eternal Grace that I did not in any way earn or deserve... We are not divided we are the same in this respect... But... "I believe Lord, help thou mine unbelief!... Brother Glen

 

[Yeshua1]

Think that Reformed baptists are part of the Mix, but also that there are many more non Reformed in the Baptist camp...

And i am defining here being reformed as holding to Covenant Theology, All calvinism, having Confessions etc!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of Church is yours, and what do you think about what you think might happen, if it does happen?

My church would probably be defined as Reformed Baptist. I should probably explain that the 'Church of England' is the Anglican Church in England. It is the 'established' church and the Queen is Head of it and some of its Bishops sit in the House of Lords. Any English person who has been 'christened' ('baptized' as an infant) into the Church of England has a right to have his child 'christened' in a C of E church. It is therefore very remarkable that the church in Exeter should cease to 'baptize' babies.

I hope that clarifies my last post a little. There is no reason why you should be conversant with church practice in my country.

Are you of a mind to follow suit?

My church is nothing whatever to do with the Church of England.

I actually have a Pastor friend who is Episcopal, and was recently shocked to find out he married two men. We have had discussions numerous times, and in large part we might be found to agree soteriologically, but there is a gap in Eschatology. I was floored, when I learned of his apparent position on marriage.

The Church of England is actually barred by law from performing same-sex 'marriages,' but many ministers would love to do so and are agitating for a change in the law. At present same-sex 'marriages' are always secular in Britain.

I have primarily gone to Independent Baptist Churches, which while they were not really an organized group (Meaning many churches organized together under one header), they were all in large part identical in their views, which would probably be termed Dispensational (a designation that is a four letter word for some). I attend those types of fellowships because when I direct someone to a fellowship while witnessing, I can be assured that Scripture is a prominent element in the discipling that will take place. That is just what I see as one Baptist Distinctive.

You and I might both wish that faithfulness to the Scriptures was a prominent feature of Baptist churches, but we both know that in very many cases it isn't so. All 'baptist' seems to guarantee as a description of a church is that it doesn't 'baptize' babies.

I was shocked to learn some of the views of some Baptists in regards to this. Didn't know there were Baptists that felt infant baptism was more than a ritual. Recently spoke with both a Catholic and a Protestant who was reformed in his theology (the owner of the site in fact) who didn't realize just how closely their doctrine was.

I can't comment without knowing more about the Protestant. Infant 'baptism' should mean something quite different to a Reformed Presbyterian or Episcopalian from what it means to a Roman Catholic.

And that is a problem I see occurring. Again, there is a difference between reformation and revolution, which in my view has the Baptist standing apart from both groups.

I disagree. I have far more in common with Reformed paedo-baptists than I do with apostate Baptists like Steve Chalke. And as I have said, many Reformed folk are becoming Baptists. I believe there is great hope in that.

And seeing it is very clear I am not welcome here, and have had no response from the OP, have a good discussion.

Do not leave on my account. I always enjoy reading your posts, although I don't always agree with them. You are a man who loves the word of God, and I respect that.

God bless.

You too.

 

[Darrell C]

Instead of attempting to quantify "Baptist" & its many iterations....IE "Reformed" or "Primitive" or "Free Will" or "Fundamentalist" yada, yada, what about going back to the root of it all.....and read your bibles without all the baggage of what has become your own personal understanding......rather what does the holy spirit tell you about what the biblical text is telling you.

Anyway, that's where I am at.

How remarkably Baptist of you.



This is one of the Distinctive traits many associate with Baptists. Many times the Comment "Well, Baptists know their Bibles" has been made in my witnessing efforts.

And I think in the truest sense of what the Reformers had in mind carries this same principle, a desire to challenge the status quo based on a Scriptural presentation.

But you know what they say, "Here comes the new boss. Same as the old boss."


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

My church would probably be defined as Reformed Baptist. I should probably explain that the 'Church of England' is the Anglican Church in England. It is the 'established' church and the Queen is Head of it and some of its Bishops sit in the House of Lords. Any English person who has been 'christened' ('baptized' as an infant) into the Church of England has a right to have his child 'christened' in a C of E church. It is therefore very remarkable that the church in Exeter should cease to 'baptize' babies.

I hope that clarifies my last post a little. There is no reason why you should be conversant with church practice in my country.

I'll be honest, I do not spend my time trying to understand denominations and groups. I see it as a far better approach simply to understand the Word of God better, and that will equip us to deal with every denomination and group, lol. And read the quote again, I am appealing to it's statement that this is not necessarily arrogance.



And it is good news to see such change in what you make sound as tradition that goes back quite a ways. Sadly, when change occurs in many groups these days it is seldom for the better.

My church is nothing whatever to do with the Church of England.

I did actually go to your site and do some reading, but I cannot recall too much. So I am not really qualified to comment on this.

The Church of England is actually barred by law from performing same-sex 'marriages,' but many ministers would love to do so and are agitating for a change in the law. At present same-sex 'marriages' are always secular in Britain.

Good for the Law, lol. Brings to mind the thread where law was discussed and the differences between the US and UK. That was a pretty good one.

You and I might both wish that faithfulness to the Scriptures was a prominent feature of Baptist churches, but we both know that in very many cases it isn't so. All 'baptist' seems to guarantee as a description of a church is that it doesn't 'baptize' babies.

But that isn't what I see in the intent of the quote. There's more to it in the underlying statement/s. And that is what piqued my curiosity, because just like I felt like an oddball before I was saved (and the Gospel comforted me when it confirmed I was), even so I feel a bit like an oddball among many, if not most "Baptists" here. Of course, most of the fellowships I have been a member of were Independent Baptists (and one Southern Baptist, which varied little from the Independent (though every fellowship falls under the headship of the Leadership and is usually taught his/their positions)), and while they were not specifically joined there is a general agreement in doctrine between them. I am sure we could find the same kind of dedication to the Word of God in certain "community Churches" as well, but, if I had to suggest a place of fellowship for a new convert from a distance (rather than inviting them to my own), I would feel comfortable directing them to an Independent Baptist Church.

But, not baptizing babies is a big one, lol. Even in that, there is a sermon in itself, in that in view is the explicit demand and testimony that relationship with God is a personal relationship, and a "religious" mentality is not just discouraged but denied. There is the teaching that men must, of theimselves, enter into relationship with God on a personal level.

I can't comment without knowing more about the Protestant. Infant 'baptism' should mean something quite different to a Reformed Presbyterian or Episcopalian from what it means to a Roman Catholic.

You might be surprised, brother.

Just spent some time on a forum that has a motto "The Protestant Community," where I engaged in a discussion with a Catholic about Baptismal Regeneration, and surprisingly, the owner, a Presbyterian (who was formerly not, and one day decided he wanted to embrace Reformed Theology) seemed to be in agreement with him. Yet he is Reformed, Presbyterian, and unaware of just how many issues he and the Catholic might have in common. R.C. Sproul has made the comment that he has thought about starting a new denomination, for the purpose of their being a more distinctive separation from the norm, but concludes it would just end up as denominations (and his own) have, which would demand the need for a "new denomination," lol.

But, one aspect of this would be that there is a translation from the pulpit to the pew to the public. You could preach your heart out and be on point and a picture of Theological prowess and then catch up with a member and get his take on it and have your socks blown off by what he thinks you taught, lol. Kind of like that game where one whispers something in another's ear, then they do that, and by the time this is done ten times...it is something entirely different.

I disagree. I have far more in common with Reformed paedo-baptists than I do with apostate Baptists like Steve Chalke. And as I have said, many Reformed folk are becoming Baptists. I believe there is great hope in that.

Have no idea who that is, but if you say he is apostate I will take your word for it. Pre-Trib Rapturist, maybe?



Just kidding.

Do not leave on my account. I always enjoy reading your posts, although I don't always agree with them. You are a man who loves the word of God, and I respect that.

No, not leaving on anyone's account, I have a business to run, and a project I am working on which the thread "What is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost?" is helping me with. Most of the views I have are built upon two things. First, my view concerning what Scripture teaches, and secondly, an address of the arguments against that view or position.

This is something else that has surprised me, but you know how it is when you are used to the Baptists you fellowship being in general agreement about things and then finding Baptists that have an entirely different view. For example, I have never been in a Baptist fellowship that does not distinguish between the external nature of the Ministry of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament (which is not a denial of an internal quality, because we know God ministers to man's heart), and the internal and eternal Ministry of the Holy Spirit sent to function as the Comforter. It is a little surprising to learn what some Baptists believe.

But, going back to the quote, and in fact, just a little comment on the OPs site, there is a sense of pride in being a Baptist for me And while I am first and foremost just a Christian Student of the Word of God, as I said, I feel comfortable directing people to Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches ( though I think there are some that are not like the Independent Baptists I am used to). I wonder about Mormons and JWs sometimes, and have talked with enough of them that often they must preface anything they say with something along the lines of "I know a lot of people think ____________ are a cult..." lol.

Not true for Baptists, at least I don't think it is true historically.

So the quote caught my eye, and I appreciate what is said.

Okay, think that's it for this round. Until next we meet, may God bless your ministry, brother.


God bless.