Why so many unfounded attacks on Calvinism?

[Crabtownboy]

What is the fear all about? Each new thread that starts as an attack only shows people do not understand what Calvinism is. I mean we disagree on how we see some passages, but some come to the table with such a hate and fear as if it was up to them to save the faith. In most cases there is no fear shown. In must cases they have been told wrong.

Disagreement...yes. Misunderstanding...yes.

What is the fear about? Why all the hate toward Calvinism?

I do not see it as fear. However, if you read the responses of many Calvinists on this BB and others you see they have very bad attitudes toward anyone who does not agree with them. Perhaps some of what you are talking about is the reaction of others toward these bad attitudes.

I talked to a Calvinist scholar who was visiting here from England. We discussed Calvin and Calvinism ... his concluding remark is that Calvin would reject much of what modern "Calvinists" say he taught. I cannot elaborate on this as I am not a scholar in this area.

 

[Rippon]

I do not have a fear of calvinism but what those who base their faith on it can or will do. Many a young person has been led astray by a particular theology but never by the Bible.

We base our faith on Christ alone for our salvation and sanctification.

Everyone (and that includes you)has a particular theology.

I have seen the destruction of arrogant hyper-calvinists who have disrupted a large meeting and shouted at the leader even while non-Christians were present. I also watched them later as they matured, and realized the error of their ways, and came back to the Bible.

You aren't getting Calvinists confused with hyper-Calvinists are you?

It is not so much whether one is a calvinist or an arminiamist or in the middle as is the person living for Jesus Christ and who is living for Christ because of their life because they are making disciples.

Are you saying that you are in the dead-center between Arminianism and Calvinism?There is no such middleground.That's a nonsensical position to take.

When we preach a systematric theology and try to support it then we can go wrong but if we preach the Bible it will correct any bad theology we may have and confirm our theology if it is correct. Our theology must come ffrom scripture, not that we interpret scripture in light of a theology. I have seen where both leads.

Who preaches systematic theology?One can preach systematically through books of the Bible -- but preaching systematic theology?You'd have to document that one for us.

There are plenty of preachers who claim to preach from the Bible yet are mixed-up theologically.

 

[Rippon]

God loved the world,but not all will be saved, because only believers in His Son will be saved. Even though God does what all men to be saved, but He is only going to save believers in His Son.

What causes some to believe?That's right,the Lord.The Lord gives faith and repentance.

If God wants all people to be saved why has He hidden the law and Gospel from so many for thousands of years?

In 1 Tim.2:4 the "all" refers to the elect from all over the world --from among every tribe,nation and language.

I'm glad I'm not stuck in a religious box like calvinist or an arminian box that I can see all scripture and believe. I don't have to follow the crowd in what they believe, but I can believe the scripture just like it says.

I'm not getting any pine splinters.As a Calvinist I follow the Word of God.And it is patently absurd to say that Calvinists "follow the crowd in what they believe."We are a distinct minority.Open your eyes.

You were in included when you heard the Gospel of your salvation having believed, you were included with those chosen before the foundation of the world when you heard the Gospel of your salvation having believed, not before.

There you go again.The elect are not multiple groups of people.All of the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world --that's when their names alone were written in the Lamb's Book of Life.The Bible knows do such irrationality that you have put forth.The Word of God does not have separate categories of His people --those chosen before earth's creation and others chosen afterwards.

Calvinists are right in everthing they teach until Jesus was lifted up and (sic)Penticost(sic).

Jesus was lifted up at Pentecost?I can't follow your train of thought here.

It is all the Father until Jesus was lifted up and now He will draw all men to Himself and all authority has been been given to Jesus.

So John 6:37 and 65 no longer apply?Are you a hyper-dispensationalist?

All that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Him.No one can come to Jesus unless it has been granted him from the Father.

 

[pinoybaptist]

My dear friend Rippon:

I admire your grit, and I truly wish I had your patience, but we are all of us fallen creatures.

Some will adhere to the Doctrine of Grace, some will not, and neither side will convert unless the Spirit of God moves.

As far as we of the Doctrine of Grace are concerned, we think we understand what we believe and based on that conviction we make our stand, and the same goes for those on the other side of the fence, and yet, in heaven, both sides might find out that what both tenaciously affirmed and stood for here on earth may have so many loopholes in it when the Lord Himself opens up the Scriptures for them as He did the two on the way to Emmaus.

Suffice to say that the gospel be preached to those to whom it is intended for. To the Doctrine of Grace adherents the intended hearers are the elect, to those on the other side of the fence, the intended hearers are all mankind, either way, as Paul says, Christ is preached and God is glorified.

Man will believe what he wants to believe, and God saved those whom He intended to save in and through Christ, and will gospelly save those whom He intends to gospelly save here in time.

God bless you, brother.

 

[Berean]

Did Neo-Pentecostalism arrive on the scene in the SBC prior to the abandoment of the doctorine of complete soverneighty. (Calvinism) or was it the reverse.

 

[psalms109:31]

Doctrine

I will never be a doctrine of grace, but believe in grace through faith as the scripture teaches. I follow no man made ideas, but scripture.

I'm sorry the scripture teaches that God included them with those chosen before the foundation of the world when they heard the Gospel of thier salvation having believed.

All authority has been given to Jesus and after Jesus is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself. Those scripture did aply, but everthing has been given to Jesus, now all men are drawn to Jesus. To be given the paths to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned.

We cannot forget all the ather scripture with all men being drawn to Jesus without us going out from Romans 10.

We have good news my brother, not the bad news that some can't come.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. If some doesn't come it isn't because of God not wanted them to be saved.

We have so much to learn, but we can't living in a man made box.

God gives faith to all men througfh His word to repent and believe, but you can walk away from it, not because of God not wanting you to come, because God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[mparkerfd20]

My dear friend Rippon:

I admire your grit, and I truly wish I had your patience, but we are all of us fallen creatures.

Some will adhere to the Doctrine of Grace, some will not, and neither side will convert unless the Spirit of God moves.

As far as we of the Doctrine of Grace are concerned, we think we understand what we believe and based on that conviction we make our stand, and the same goes for those on the other side of the fence, and yet, in heaven, both sides might find out that what both tenaciously affirmed and stood for here on earth may have so many loopholes in it when the Lord Himself opens up the Scriptures for them as He did the two on the way to Emmaus.

Suffice to say that the gospel be preached to those to whom it is intended for. To the Doctrine of Grace adherents the intended hearers are the elect, to those on the other side of the fence, the intended hearers are all mankind, either way, as Paul says, Christ is preached and God is glorified.

Man will believe what he wants to believe, and God saved those whom He intended to save in and through Christ, and will gospelly save those whom He intends to gospelly save here in time.

God bless you, brother.

Great post pinoy. I've missed seeing your posts around lately. Regardless of what side of the fence you're on you rarely see humility displayed in argument. Sadly it has become more of a fight to pat one's self on the back, because they are right and the other is wrong.

While I am a firm believer in the Doctrines of Grace I tend to agree with TCGreek on how to approach the subject from the pulpit. I believe an exposition of the scriptures naturally lends itself to the Doctrines of Grace, but calling it Calvinism from the pulpit is going a little far. I just call it biblical.

And to the part of your quote that I bolded.... AMEN!

 

[gb93433]

Everyone (and that includes you)has a particular theology.

You are right. While I have not done a study or seen one to determine it. I tend to think that we could divide particular theologies into groups and parallel them with personalities and temperaments and I think we would find a nice neat group in each camp made up up of a very homogeneous group of those who think very much alike.

You aren't getting Calvinists confused with hyper-Calvinists are you?

Not in particular. I know the hypers cause a lot of destruction but anyone who stands in the pulpit or teach any Bible study and touts calvinism is wrong. When I look at how little time I have to impact the lives of others I want to make every minute count. I am only able to find two things that are eternal: the souls of people and God's word. Anything else is a waste of time in comparison.

Are you saying that you are in the dead-center between Arminianism and Calvinism?There is no such middleground.That's a nonsensical position to take.

I am not. If you read your Bible you will finds that Jesus never fit into any neat camp and was fired at from both sides. He directed them back to scripture. For example when Jesus was asked about divorce, standing in the crowd would have been the liberals and conservatives and everything in between. His answer told them what God wanted from the beginning. He did not side with any camp except scripture and what God wanted.

It would be much like the idea of abortion and the arguments for and against a particular vote for president a few months ago. The real issue is not abortion but what God wanted from the beginning.

Who preaches systematic theology?One can preach systematically through books of the Bible -- but preaching systematic theology?You'd have to document that one for us.

If one preached the doctrine of God or the doctrine of the Holy Spirit that would be preaching a systematic theology.

So often today, what is being preached in churches is picking a topic and trying to support it by cherry picking verses from the Bible.

There are plenty of preachers who claim to preach from the Bible yet are mixed-up theologically.

I absolutely agree with you. The unfortunate thing is that so many of the denominational leaders of the denomination they are with are in the same boat. Too many churches expect their pastors to befriend them and be there for them at every beckon call, instead of studying and feeding the congregation and training them so they can do ministry.

Years ago when I started as pastor of a particular church I quickly realized that the pastor before me had put people in places of major leadership who were not mature enough to be there and had a very poor theological foundation. He made a lady who had been a Christian less than one year as the youth leader. He had deacons who told me that they seldom read their Bible. There was an adult Sunday School teacher who taught the adults who was also listening to the tapes of a false teacher and would teach what he taught. Despite the bad situation I began to meet with several new people who wanted to grow. When I left most of them left and are now serving in other churches. One of them leads the music and trains people to make disciples.

 

[gb93433]

While I am a firm believer in the Doctrines of Grace I tend to agree with TCGreek on how to approach the subject from the pulpit. I believe an exposition of the scriptures naturally lends itself to the Doctrines of Grace, but calling it Calvinism from the pulpit is going a little far. I just call it biblical.

I agree. The way you tell if a stick is crooked is to lay a straight one next to it.

 

[webdog]

Hello Arthur,
The answer is, man wants to be in control of his destiny. Sorry, no novel size posts. Hope you are doing ok.

...and I thought you weren't a calvinist.

This shows that calvinists don't understand the non side as well.

 

[webdog]

What is the fear all about? Each new thread that starts as an attack only shows people do not understand what Calvinism is. I mean we disagree on how we see some passages, but some come to the table with such a hate and fear as if it was up to them to save the faith. In most cases there is no fear shown. In must cases they have been told wrong.

Disagreement...yes. Misunderstanding...yes.

What is the fear about? Why all the hate toward Calvinism?

Who has said they (we) fear calvinism?

I have seen plenty a thread started by calvinists atacking the non position as well in my 4 years here. This thread in itself could be considered an attack on non calvinists' lack of understanding the position, which is far from the truth, and falsely accusing non cal's of "fear" and "hate".

 

[drfuss]

drfuss: Why so many unfounded attacks on Calvinism??

One reason could be a reaction to the impplied attacks by Calvinists on Non-Calvinists.

For instance, Calvinists call Calvinism The Doctrines of Grace. All Christians believe in God's Grace. But this name implies that only Calvinists believe in God's Grace.

Suppose the Non-Calvinists called their beliefs: The Doctrines of Christianity, or The doctrines of Scriptures, or The Doctrines of Christ? How would the Calvinists react? Apparently, Non-Calvinists are much more considerate (less rude) of other Christians than are Calvinists.

The same applies for Calvinists claiming they believe God is more sovereign that what Non-Calvinists believe. All Christians believe God is completely sovereign and acts in a completely sovereign manner.

Yes I know, Calvinists have claimed the Doctrines of Grace and sovereignity of God for many years. I can think of two possible reasons:

1. Calvinists have traditionally wanted to separate themselves from Non-Calvinists and not work with them, so they misrepresented what Non-Calvinists believe.

2. Because Calvinism is a weak doctrine, Calvinists have found it necessary to imply a misrepresentation of what others believe in order to defend and promote Calvinism.

 

[Salamander]

I don't "hate" calvinism, no, I just don't like the spreading of an ideal that tells sinners some cannot ever be saved due to limited atonement.

Truly NOTHING is limited in God's Atonement for sin or for any number of sinners.

Although God never changes, yet God has changed his actions due to repentence. Ninevah is the best example of God changing his actions due to their repentence, but not their s alone, it also took Jonah's repentence.

The precept taught there is that if anyone would repent they too can be saved, thus the need for preaching on repentence of the godly sort to cause sinners to see that light of the Glorious Gospel and turn to Jesus for salvation!

It is true that God knows who will be saved and who will not, yet anytime a sinner turns from his sin to the Lord for salvation he too can be saved. In fact, if he is sincere in his approach to the Lord he IS saved right then!

Is there a total number of souls that wil make up the Bride of Christ? Certainly, but that number seems to not be established by amount but only how many will come to Christ in the alotted time.

The words, "If they will repent" sets a condition for souls in who can be saved, not a predestined number.

The real evidence of the ideal is that God chose some that never could repent and be saved. That very ideal is a direct attack on the Holy Ghost's ability to bring a sinner to repentence.

Many have come to a conclusion they could never be "elect" due to this teaching of election before salvation as to exclude some. They simply were led to think they were of that number of the predestined to be lost. I have met some who are determined they are forever lost and had no chance.:tear: Yet they still do!

Simply quit listening to all the idealists and turn and trust the Lord!:godisgood:

 

[Tom Butler]

Although God never changes, yet God has changed his actions due to repentence. Ninevah is the best example of God changing his actions due to their repentence, but not their s alone, it also took Jonah's repentance.

I don't see any change here. God has always intended to save repentant sinners, and condemn rebellious ones. God intended to save sinners in Nineveh and took all the steps necessary to accomplish it, including getting Jonah's attention.

The precept taught there is that if anyone would repent they too can be saved, thus the need for preaching on repentence of the godly sort to cause sinners to see that light of the Glorious Gospel and turn to Jesus for salvation!

Exactly. God intends to save sinners through the foolishness of preaching. But it is the Holy Spirit who causes sinners to see the light. It explains why some respond to the gospel and others don't.

It is true that God knows who will be saved and who will not, yet anytime a sinner turns from his sin to the Lord for salvation he too can be saved. In fact, if he is sincere in his approach to the Lord he IS saved right then!

I really don't think you meant to say that God knows who will be saved, yet there'll be some who are saved that he didn't know about. Nor do I think you really meant to say that God knows who will not be saved, but one of them got saved anyway.

Is there a total number of souls that wil make up the Bride of Christ? Certainly, but that number seems to not be established by amount but only how many will come to Christ in the alotted time.

I don't think you really intend to say that God doesn't know how many that will be. However you arrive at the total, the number is fixed. What God knows today, he has always known.

The real evidence of the ideal is that God chose some that never could repent and be saved. That very ideal is a direct attack on the Holy Ghost's ability to bring a sinner to repentence.

This is confusing. Calvinists don't attack the HS's ability to bring a sinner to repentance. They believe a sinner's salvation is totally dependent on it.

 

[gb93433]

I don't "hate" calvinism, no, I just don't like the spreading of an ideal that tells sinners some cannot ever be saved due to limited atonement.

Truly NOTHING is limited in God's Atonement for sin or for any number of sinners.

Just imagine telling the people listening, "There are some of you who will never go to heaven because God has condemned some of you to hell."

 

[Jarthur001]

Just imagine telling the people listening, "There are some of you who will never go to heaven because God has condemned some of you to hell."

This post is a good case in point.

1) who said "There are some of you.....blah blah.."?

2) is this a true statement if it was said?

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Arthur,
The answer is, man wants to be in control of his destiny. Sorry, no novel size posts. Hope you are doing ok.

I'm blessed...thanks.

I agree that this very well could be a main reason

 

[Jarthur001]

I do not see it as fear.

Make no mistake, it is a fear they have.

However, if you read the responses of many Calvinists on this BB and others you see they have very bad attitudes toward anyone who does not agree with them.

Perhaps. Calvinist can be a bit bold at times. But I see no panic in their post as I do some ...yes only some non-calvinist. I can't count the number of times a new kid comes on the block that has read their 1st copy of "what love is this?..or some other book by someone who does not know what they are talking about. They come on here thinking they will put a end the debate once and for all. There is a level of hate in their post. They are here to educate the poor fools that are Calvinist.

They last about 4-5 threads and you hardly see them again. We will always have a handful that will not give it up. That's cool....we need someone to debate.

Perhaps some of what you are talking about is the reaction of others toward these bad attitudes.

Most of my post are telling others that their view of Calvinism is wrong. It does get old. But that's life.

I talked to a Calvinist scholar who was visiting here from England. We discussed Calvin and Calvinism ... his concluding remark is that Calvin would reject much of what modern "Calvinists" say he taught. I cannot elaborate on this as I am not a scholar in this area.

I can elaborate and tell you that your scholar needs to go back to school. Its statemenst like this...statements that shows the person don't have a clue....that shows the fear. Why make it up?

This false statement by your scholar has been around for years. Notice the false statements on this site...
http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism.htm

 

[Jarthur001]

...and I thought you weren't a calvinist.

This shows you don't know.

 

[Jarthur001]

Who has said they (we) fear calvinism?

I have seen plenty a thread started by calvinists atacking the non position as well in my 4 years here. This thread in itself could be considered an attack on non calvinists' lack of understanding the position, which is far from the truth, and falsely accusing non cal's of "fear" and "hate".

I asked why all the fear? If the shoe fits...