Why so many unfounded attacks on Calvinism?

[Rippon]

Because you say so, doesn't make it so.

So "says" Wd.

 

[webdog]

So "says" Wd.

I'm glad you hold James' words in such high esteem. Are you now a jarthurist?

 

[Havensdad]

quote: How about believers baptism, seeing as how we are in the "Baptist only" section of the forum: "believers baptism" (precluding infants) was UNHEARD OF before the the centuries around the reformation.
---------------------------------

I don't understand this quote. There were groups outside the Catholic Church who did practice believer's baptism; baptism by immersion. This was true all down through church history. Some of the groups were cultic, but still they immersed believers.

Cheers,

Jim

Could you name a group, between the 2nd and 12th centuries, which practiced Baptism the way Baptists understand it today? Not, for example, certain early church fathers which taught that one shouldn't be baptized until old age, in order to keep one from "re damning" themselves through more sin, but rather, that Baptism was a symbolic act done only on a confessing Christian?

 

[Me4Him]

So someone at enmity with God,without the Holy Spirit,someone who loves the world and the things therein can understand the Gospel?Is 1 Cor.2:14 still in your Bible?



The Father draws and gives some to Jesus.Everyone out side of Christ chooses to rebel.That's why only with the supernatural intervention of the Lord is anyone able to be saved.

The righteous/unrighteous both heard Jesus speaking, and there was no "supernatural intervention" by Jesus to "enable" Israel to be saved,

Jesus placed the blame on them for remaining unsaved, "I would, you wouldn't".

It's the same Jesus, same voice, speaking today, has the plan of salvation changed???

What God has "predestined" can't change, if Israel was predestined to reject Jesus, then Jesus's offer to Israel wasn't valid, and it was an offer he couldn't have kept against the "predestine will of God".

Obviously, what occurred wasn't predestined.

God "foreknew" Israel would reject Jesus, but foreknowledge leaves open the "CHOICE" to the person/nation, predestination has no "CHOICE".

God can make his plans within the context of the choices he "foreknows" people are going to make without predestine them to make those choices, either way.

This is why Jesus can make a valid offer to Israel, or us, and have it refused/accepted by our "choice" of belief/unbelief.

Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The many called not chosen, wouldn't be a valid offer, unless they could chose.

 

[Rippon]

I'm glad you hold James' words in such high esteem. Are you now a jarthurist?

I'm just having fun with you Wd.You came up out of the blue and said in post #140:"Just because you say so doesn't make it so."That was a response to a Jarthur remark.I had to hunt down his comment in post #124.You leave no context in your one-shot postings.Most of the time it's just sniper fire coming from you.I just thought I'd give you a bit of your own medicine.

But I do agree with him that the doctrines of grace are manifested in the Canons of Dort -- not just in the much abbreviated TULIP.

 

[webdog]

I'm just having fun with you Wd.You came up out of the blue and said in post #140:"Just because you say so doesn't make it so."That was a response to a Jarthur remark.I had to hunt down his comment in post #124.You leave no context in your one-shot postings.Most of the time it's just sniper fire coming from you.I just thought I'd give you a bit of your own medicine.

But I do agree with him that the doctrines of grace are manifested in the Canons of Dort -- not just in the much abbreviated TULIP.

The reason there was not context, was because it was intended for him to read, not you.

 

[Rippon]

The reason there was not context, was because it was intended for him to read, not you.

Since this board has many readers it would be helpful to supply context in each post --otherwise folks would be scratching their heads:"What in the world is this dog-fella' trying to say?"

 

[gb93433]

Gb,the Bible is the Primary Source.

My point exactly. Calvinism sure isn't a primary source. Apparently many have only read a summary of what another thinks or wants to perpetuate about calvinism and what they thought he said rather than reading the man himself.

Certainly one does not need to read Calvin but does need to read the Bible. By some of the responses one reads at times it does not leave much to the imagination to know if the Bible is read or not.

 

[gb93433]

Could you name a group, between the 2nd and 12th centuries, which practiced Baptism the way Baptists understand it today?

I would think if you were to ask someone who believes in Landmarkism that the person could find someone.

 

[Rippon]

The Bible Is The Primary Source For Calvinism

Apparently many have only read a summary of what another thinks or wants to perpetuate about calvinism and what they thought he said rather than reading the man himself.

You are one stubborn guy.How many times must you be told that Calvinists do not follow John Calvin?Why do you persist with the same old line after being corrected repeatedly by so many,for so long?Calvin did not invent Calvinism.Calvinism is not dependant on him for their beliefs.We don't have to line up with what John Calvin taught -- but what the Scriptures teach.That is,we don't have to consult his works to arrive at our theological conclusions.

Do you get it now?...I didn't think so.

By some of the responses one reads at times it does not leave much to the imagination to know if the Bible is read or not.

Specific examples are always welcome when you make such silly assertions.

 

[Jerome]

"There are many divines who tell the inquirer, "election has nothing to do with you." That is very bad, because the poor soul is not to be silenced like that. If you could silence him so it might be well, but he will think of it, he can't help it. Say to him then, If you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ you are elect. If you will cast yourself on Jesus, you are elect. I tell you — the chief of sinners — this morning, I tell you in his name, if you will come to God with-out any works of your own; cast yourself on the blood and righteousness of Jesus Christ; if you will come now and trust in him, you are elect — you were loved of God from before the foundation of the world, for you could not do that unless God had given you the power, and had chosen you to do it. Now you are safe and secure if you do but come and cast yourself on Jesus Christ, and wish to be saved and to be loved by him. But think not, that any man will be saved without faith and without holiness. Do not conceive, my hearers, that some decree, passed in the dark ages of eternity, will save your souls, unless you believe in Christ. Do not sit down and fancy that you are to be saved without faith and holiness. That is a most abominable and accursed heresy, and has ruined thousands." ---Spurgeon

 

[psalms109:31]

Power of God unto salvation

The Gospel is awesome.

Jesus did many things after His death and reserection. When He was glorified all authority was given to Him, until everthing has been placed under His feet, then what will happen. He will give it to the Father who placed everthing under His feet. He will also draw all men to Himself, not like before when it was the Fathers authority. Jesus came to us as a servant. Now that Jesus has done the will of the Father all authority has been given to Him. He said when He was lifted up He will draw all men to HImself. We still couldn't do anything because the Holy Spirit has not yet been given to us. When the Holy Spirit was poured on us, not only do we have the words of Jesus that is Spirit and it is life, we have the Holy Spirit to remind us of His word. We have Jesus word and the Holy Spirit to guide us.

Jesus word is the Holy Spirit that will talk to all men, because His word tells us He will draw all men to Himself. This was not like this, until Jesus was lifted up.

He gives us two roads to believe in Him and be saved or not and be condemned.

Those who believe are not saved because of thier choice, but the will of God to save believers.

We have good news a good news that is foolishness to the wise and learned. Why because God has hidden the truth from the wise and learned and given it to children. The wise and learned will never be a child, because they are not depended on the word of God, but thier understanding of it.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, but He will only save believers in His Son.

 

[Rippon]

The Gospel is awesome.

Jesus did many things after His death and reserection. When He was glorified all authority was given to Him, until everthing has been placed under His feet, then what will happen. He will give it to the Father who placed everthing under His feet. He will also draw all men to Himself, not like before when it was the Fathers authority. Jesus came to us as a servant. Now that Jesus has done the will of the Father all authority has been given to Him. He said when He was lifted up He will draw all men to HImself. We still couldn't do anything because the Holy Spirit has not yet been given to us.

You still persist in your errors.I have asked you before if you are a hyper-dispensationalist.Are the verses of John 6 still inspired and authoritative --or not?All whom the Father gives will come to Jesus.The ones the Father draws are the ones of His choosing. No one else is able to come.How can one come?The Father enables them.

because His word tells us He will draw all men to Himself.

The word "men" isn't in the original.His own will come to Him?Why?Because the Father arranges it.See John six for details.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, but He will only save believers in His Son.

The Lord wants all people of His choice to be saved.He's not willing that any of them be lost.God does not want those who were not written in the Lamb's Book of Life to be saved.

 

[Jerome]

Spurgeon warned about Calvinists who undermine the inspiration of scripture by "rewriting" God's Word:

"What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. "All men," say they, —"that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if he had meant some men. "All men," say they; "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said "all sorts of men" if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men."

 

[Rippon]

Spurgeon warned about Calvinists who undermine the inspiration of scripture by "rewriting" God's Word:

"What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. "All men," say they, —"that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if he had meant some men. "All men," say they; "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said "all sorts of men" if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men."

Oh,your referencing Spurgeon's poorest sermon, on 1 Timothy 2.Well,the Holy Spirit didn't have "all men" in the original,or its equivalent."Our older Calvinistic friends" are right.

 

[Rippon]

I said stay away from Calvinism. But if you can't, at least be quiet until you know what Calvinism is.

How is one to know what Calvinism is unless one reads the works of Calvinists?How can one stay away from what Calvinism is supposed to be if one can't identify it properly?

Again,you contradict yourself.

I accept your apology. :saint:

I didn't offer one.

 

[gb93433]

How is one to know what Calvinism is unless one reads the works of Calvinists?How can one stay away from what Calvinism is supposed to be if one can't identify it properly?

There are many brands of calvinism. There is one Christianity and many counterfeits. Calvin authored a number of books and after reading most of them I realized that calvinists often put words in his mouth.

So which one would you suggest one read to fully understand what calvinists believe. Will they give the particulars of 3, 4, 5, and 6 point calvinists on how they agree on everything concerning calvinism?

There are many isms present in society today. Among them are Catholicsm, Mormonism, Calvinism, and many many others. Which one do I need to study to uderstand the Bible and Christianity? None.

 

[gb93433]

You are one stubborn guy.How many times must you be told that Calvinists do not follow John Calvin?Why do you persist with the same old line after being corrected repeatedly by so many,for so long?Calvin did not invent Calvinism.Calvinism is not dependant on him for their beliefs.We don't have to line up with what John Calvin taught -- but what the Scriptures teach.That is,we don't have to consult his works to arrive at our theological conclusions.

I tend to kind of think in a practical sense. It could be because I grew up on a farm. I am also a believer that God's word works and I go with what works. So could you enlighten me as to why you want to give yourself the name calvinist if you do not care to be associated with Calvin? Does Calvin embarass you?

I do not have any problem being called a Christian and being associated with Christ in an intimate way. Should I be called another form of some ism instead, because I follow Christ?

You claim to not follow Calvin but call yourself a calvinist. Does that mean you should not be called a Christian because you follow Christ.

The parallel is this:

A) You do not follow Calvin
B) You are a Calvinist

A-) You follow Christ
B-) You are not a Christian

The logic is to be called the name of someone you do not follow. Therefore do not call yourself a Christian because you would want to be called by a name of someone you do not follow.

Which kind of calvinist are you? Two point, three point, four point, five point, or six point? You should start some branches of summarized calvinists to represent those who do not adhere to Calvin's teaching but follow a 3, 4, 5, and 6 point Calvinism. Apparently that would give you some mroe groups of calvinists. You would also need to include the various groups of hypercalvinism. Perhaps the calvinists should start a group of churches called the 3 through 6 point calvinist churches. They could come up with their own doctrinal statement so they would not be so misunderstood and bring great clarity to their followers and outsiders. In particular there may be those who would want to know the doctrinal statement used to unite the 3 through six point calvinists and use Bible verses to show how 3 through 6 point calvinism is all biblical. You would want to make sure that each group is represented biblicaly because scripture does not lie and the Bibkle is correct. Certainly you would want to make sure that the Bible represents al of the 3 through six point calvinists to show they are all in agreement with scripture.

 

[Jarthur001]

There are many brands of calvinism. There is one Christianity and many counterfeits. Calvin authored a number of books and after reading most of them I realized that calvinists often put words in his mouth.

This is a hoot!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

You have been told many times on this thread alone that Calvinism is not following John Calvin. Yet you post words like this.

NOW HEAR THIS
CALVINISM IS NOT A STUDY OF WHAT JOHN CALVIN SAID!!​

Please read the above 20 times and write it down. Each time you post on Calvinism, please pull this out and read it again.

You PROVE over and over you don't understand Calvinism. You have been told your mistakes over and over. Yet...you still hold on to your fear of what it is NOT. WHY??

So which one would you suggest one read to fully understand what calvinists believe.

The Bible

Will they give the particulars of 3, 4, 5, and 6 point calvinists on how they agree on everything concerning calvinism?

The Bible will stamp the 5 points (not 6 point) as 100% right.

There are many isms present in society today. Among them are Catholicsm, Mormonism, Calvinism, and many many others

.
and don't forget ..."free-willism and humanism.

Which one do I need to study to uderstand the Bible and Christianity? None.

The Bible is about God. You will see God lifted up in the Bible and man placed in his sin state that he is. If you walk away from the Bible and feel you must lift high the will of man over the will of God, you have read the Bible wrong.

Any system you hold, must have God in control in ALL things. Make God God and man a sinner. Dead in his sins at that.

Call it what you want. If you don't like Calvinism, call it "ice Cream". Just please don't mock God by lifting the power of mans will above Gods will. That is humanism

 

[Jarthur001]

I tend to kind of think in a practical sense.

haha....good one. And others do not...do they? :laugh:

It could be because I grew up on a farm.

Nothing wrong with that. My father grow up on a farm. My son-in-law grow up on a farm.

I am also a believer that God's word works and I go with what works.

As all believers do.

So could you enlighten me as to why you want to give yourself the name calvinist if you do not care to be associated with Calvin?

We didn't give ourself that name. I was a Calvinist years before i used the name. As has been said 2-3 times on this thread before, Calvinist HATERS labled the doctrines Calvinism. Why? Only because John Calvin wrote on them. The doctrines did not come from him, they came from the Bible. We have just seen this in action. WD just called rip...a Jarthist...or something like that. Why? Because I wrote a post that Rip agreed with. Did I come up with the truth? no. Is rip following me? no. In fact I would say rip knows much more than I. Yet because he agreed with something I said, he is said to be following me. silly...is it not?

We call them the doctrines of grace. But as you just saw a few post back, non-Calvinist hate when we do this. Hate runs their life. They hate Calvinism, and hate the doctrines that say...."All grace comes from God". They want man to have just a bit...maybe just a tiny bit of control. God controls all things they claim, but man signs off on salvation. If that is the case, God does not control all things now does he?

Does Calvin embarass you?

:BangHead:

I do not have any problem being called a Christian and being associated with Christ in an intimate way.

Why? Because you follow Christ?

You claim to not follow Calvin but call yourself a calvinist. Does that mean you should not be called a Christian because you follow Christ.

You really do need to take at least one class in church history.

The parallel is this:

A) You do not follow Calvin
B) You are a Calvinist

You really do need to listen to one that knows what Calvinism is.

Which kind of calvinist are you? Two point, three point, four point, five point, or six point? You should start some branches of summarized calvinists to represent those who do not adhere to Calvin's teaching but follow a 3, 4, 5, and 6 point Calvinism.

Apparently that would give you some mroe groups of calvinists. You would also need to include the various groups of hypercalvinism. Perhaps the calvinists should start a group of churches called the 3 through 6 point calvinist churches. They could come up with their own doctrinal statement so they would not be so misunderstood and bring great clarity to their followers and outsiders. In particular there may be those who would want to know the doctrinal statement used to unite the 3 through six point calvinists and use Bible verses to show how 3 through 6 point calvinism is all biblical. You would want to make sure that each group is represented biblicaly because scripture does not lie and the Bibkle is correct. Certainly you would want to make sure that the Bible represents al of the 3 through six point calvinists to show they are all in agreement with scripture

.
I rest my case.