Why so many unfounded attacks on Calvinism?

[sag38]

And the jury does not find in your favor.

 

[Crabtownboy]

And the jury does not find in your favor.

Most people who call themselves Calvinists know very little about what Calvin wrote and very little about them man himself.

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

I believe in scripture, not men's interpentation of it. God the Father choose the one's who whould come to Him to prepare them for the return of the Holy Spirit. No one could come to Jesus unless the Father drew them, now as the scripture teaches when Jesus is lifted up, He will draw all men to Himself. He gives them two roads to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemnedand we are the messengers of it.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowldge of the truth and now the Holy Spirit is here the door has been open for all men and whosoever believes shall be saved.

Don't we have good news my brother, praise God. To bad some don't believe.

 

[webdog]

Oh,your referencing Spurgeon's poorest sermon, on 1 Timothy 2.Well,the Holy Spirit didn't have "all men" in the original,or its equivalent."Our older Calvinistic friends" are right.

I'm glad you are bold enough to claim spokesperson for the Holy Spirit. A new level of arrogance, that's for sure!

 

[Jarthur001]

In order to address the OP i will from time to time give a post along those lines.

Another has pointed out Hunts book.."What love is this" saying it would show others the "right" view of Calvinism. Yet as I pointed out, Hunt is recorded on tape 2 months before he wrote the book as saying he had never read reformed writers. Some how others think he is an expert. A expert that has never read on the subject.

This shows that people are driven by fears of what they think it is, and fear it so much they fear reading real books by Calvinist that KNOW and understand it and love it, for they FEAR they may be tricked into believing it or something.

Now lets look at another book like Hunts....
The other side of Calvinism

The title says it all. Like there is something hidden. The on looker can't see the full picture, so this writer will share with the world what they don't know.

Here is a link to the book.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0962889873/?tag=baptis04-20

The writer is Laurence Vance.

Here is one quote you will find in the book.

The doctrines of Calvinism, if really believer and consistently practiced, are detrimental to evangelism, personal soul winning, prayer, preaching, and practical Christianity in general.

Now is this quote true, or is iit driven by fear because he does not understand Calvinism?

Well, history will show it is fear that drives him.

One may want to read this book...

http://books.google.com/books?id=Jb...a=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPP1,M1

This will show that Calvinism is linked to the spread of the gospel.

http://www.baptistfire.com/ .....has a whole section that tries to tell its readers of the DANGER of Calvinism and how it will doom the church.

Yet anyone can read for themself that it was Calvinism that started Missions programs we see today. In fact today we see non-Calvinist wanting to build big churches to have fun in...while the Calvinist still see the great need of missions.

William Carey, Adonirum Judson, and other missionaries who were Calvinist.


I ask again...why all the fear???

 

[Jarthur001]

Most people who call themselves Calvinists know very little about what Calvin wrote and very little about them man himself.

and here we go again.

Its like they never read.

CALVINISM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH JOHN CALVIN

 

[webdog]

...and I will say again, the fear is in your head. Speaking out against something is not fear. If it were, you have great fear yourself.

 

[Jarthur001]

...and I will say again, the fear is in your head. Speaking out against something is not fear. If it were, you have great fear yourself.

Vance again...(btw its from a book...not made up in my head like you said)
Why make-up stuff like this? Fear maybe?

Calvinism is the greatest "Christian" heresy that has ever plagued the church

.

Not just a heresy Vance says, it is the GREATEST heresy of all times.

This means it is greater then Gnosticism. It means it is greater then Montanism.

Vance sees Arianism as better then Calvinism

Pelagianism...oh yes...much better going by Vance.

Yet as has been shown it is under Calvinism that the church grows.

So I ask you wd...why all the fear?

Would you like to see others that say the same thing???

 

[Jarthur001]

another site...please read.

Heresies of Calvinism!

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Doctrines/heresies_of_calvinism.htm

point one....
CALVIN BELIEVED IN INFANT BAPTISM

This is true, but this has nothing to do with Calvinism. Mind you...this is the 1st point.

Why??

another point...

CALVINISTS ACTUALLY HINDER AND OPPOSE SOUL WINNING

Not true. We have already seen this is nothing but fear driven.

Why the fear??

 

[Me4Him]

You still persist in your errors.I have asked you before if you are a hyper-dispensationalist.Are the verses of John 6 still inspired and authoritative --or not?All whom the Father gives will come to Jesus.The ones the Father draws are the ones of His choosing. No one else is able to come.How can one come?The Father enables them.


The Lord wants all people of His choice to be saved.He's not willing that any of them be lost.God does not want those who were not written in the Lamb's Book of Life to be saved.

"IF" God is not willing for any to perish and none can come except God calls them,

then the lost perish because of God's "UNWILLINGNESS" to call them,

Do you know what that makes God???

God said he would call all men, and to keep his word, God is obligated to call "ALL MEN".

And to keep that promise, the Gospel must be preached to the whole world (all men) before the end comes, and it's not the voice of the preacher they must hear, but the voice of the "Spirit", calling them to repentance.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

People perish because their "WILL" is contrary to God's "WILL".

 

[MB]

The only one of the five points that is even debatable, from scripture, is limited atonement. Even that one, though, is well supported.

Why haven't you supported it.

As far as "hanging on" to it, I was an Arminian for nearly 8 years, before realizing that was exactly what I was doing: hanging on to an unbiblical doctrine, because I did not like it.

So you went from one doctrine to another. I'm not an Arminian so I'm just not impressed. I do not believe Arminius either.

The fact is, I have been through countless debates just like this one, and EVERY TIME, it ends with the Arminian backed into the corner, making arguments of "human Logic" (such as "God didn't make robots!", "MY God isn't like that!"{which is idolatry} etc.) while the Calvinist still has an entire arsenal of scriptures that he has not even called upon.

What are you bragging about? I've studied the Bible I know what it says. Are you trying to convince yourself because you certainly are not convincing me of your boast.

The Bible never speaks of a free will. The Bible DOES call us slaves (doulos is actually used to describe the human condition more than any other word in the Bible: a slave, chained, completely at the mercy of someone else).

I have no idea which Bible you've studied. It's obvious that you have not really paid much attention to it at all. Here the Bible speaks of freewill.

(Lev 22:18 KJV) Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering;
(Lev 22:21 KJV) And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.
(Lev 22:23 KJV) Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.
(Lev 23:38 KJV) Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD. (Num 15:3 KJV) And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the LORD, of the herd, or of the flock:
(Num 29:39 KJV) These things ye shall do unto the LORD in your set feasts, beside your vows, and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings.
(Deu 12:6 KJV) And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:
(Deu 12:17 KJV) Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand: (Deu 16:10 KJV) And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the LORD thy God, according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
(Deu 23:23 KJV) That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.
(2 Chr 31:14 KJV) And Kore the son of Imnah the Levite, the porter toward the east, was over the freewill offerings of God, to distribute the oblations of the LORD, and the most holy things.
(Ezra 1:4 KJV) And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.
(Ezra 3:5 KJV) And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.
(Ezra 7:13 KJV) I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
Ezra 7:16 KJV) And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem:
(Ezra 8:28 KJV) And I said unto them, Ye are holy unto the LORD; the vessels are holy also; and the silver and the gold are a freewill offering unto the LORD God of your fathers.
(Psa 119:108 KJV) Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments. WILLINGLY
(Exo 25:2 KJV) Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering.
(Judg 5:2 KJV) Praise ye the LORD for the avenging of Israel, when the people willingly offered themselves.
(Judg 5:9 KJV) My heart is toward the governors of Israel, that offered themselves willingly among the people. Bless ye the LORD.
(Judg 8:25 KJV) And they answered, We will willingly give them. And they spread a garment, and did cast therein every man the earrings of his prey.
(1 Chr 29:6 KJV) Then the chief of the fathers and princes of the tribes of Israel, and the captains of thousands and of hundreds, with the rulers of the king's work, offered willingly,
(1 Chr 29:9 KJV) Then the people rejoiced, for that they offered willingly, because with perfect heart they offered willingly to the LORD: and David the king also rejoiced with great joy.
(1 Chr 29:14 KJV) But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.
(1 Chr 29:17 KJV) I know also, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of mine heart I have willingly offered all these things: and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, to offer willingly unto thee.
(2 Chr 17:16 KJV) And next him was Amasiah the son of Zichri, who willingly offered himself unto the LORD; and with him two hundred thousand mighty men of valour. (2 Chr 35:8 KJV) And his princes gave willingly unto the people, to the priests, and to the Levites: Hilkiah and Zechariah and Jehiel, rulers of the house of God, gave unto the priests for the passover offerings two thousand and six hundred small cattle, and three hundred oxen.
(Ezra 1:6 KJV) And all they that were about them strengthened their hands with vessels of silver, with gold, with goods, and with beasts, and with precious things, beside all that was willingly offered.
(Ezra 3:5 KJV) And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.
(Ezra 7:16 KJV) And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem:
(Neh 11:2 KJV) And the people blessed all the men, that willingly offered themselves to dwell at Jerusalem.
(Prov 31:13 KJV) She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. (Lam 3:33 KJV) For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. (Hosea 5:11 KJV) Ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment, because he willingly walked after the commandment.
(John 6:21 KJV) Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.
(Rom 8:20 KJV) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
(1 Cor 9:17 KJV) For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
(Phile 1:14 KJV) But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.
(1 Pet 5:2 KJV) Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; (2 Pet 3:5 KJV) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water.
MB

 

[J.D.]

Why haven't you supported it.

So you went from one doctrine to another. I'm not an Arminian so I'm just not impressed. I do not believe Arminius either.

What are you bragging about? I've studied the Bible I know what it says. Are you trying to convince yourself because you certainly are not convincing me of your boast.


I have no idea which Bible you've studied. It's obvious that you have not really paid much attention to it at all. Here the Bible speaks of freewill.

(Lev 22:18 KJV) Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering;
(Lev 22:21 KJV) And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.
(Lev 22:23 KJV) Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.
(Lev 23:38 KJV) Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD. (Num 15:3 KJV) And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the LORD, of the herd, or of the flock:
(Num 29:39 KJV) These things ye shall do unto the LORD in your set feasts, beside your vows, and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings.
(Deu 12:6 KJV) And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:
(Deu 12:17 KJV) Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand: (Deu 16:10 KJV) And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the LORD thy God, according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
(Deu 23:23 KJV) That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.
(2 Chr 31:14 KJV) And Kore the son of Imnah the Levite, the porter toward the east, was over the freewill offerings of God, to distribute the oblations of the LORD, and the most holy things.
(Ezra 1:4 KJV) And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.
(Ezra 3:5 KJV) And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.
(Ezra 7:13 KJV) I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
Ezra 7:16 KJV) And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem:
(Ezra 8:28 KJV) And I said unto them, Ye are holy unto the LORD; the vessels are holy also; and the silver and the gold are a freewill offering unto the LORD God of your fathers.
(Psa 119:108 KJV) Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments. WILLINGLY
(Exo 25:2 KJV) Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering.
(Judg 5:2 KJV) Praise ye the LORD for the avenging of Israel, when the people willingly offered themselves.
(Judg 5:9 KJV) My heart is toward the governors of Israel, that offered themselves willingly among the people. Bless ye the LORD.
(Judg 8:25 KJV) And they answered, We will willingly give them. And they spread a garment, and did cast therein every man the earrings of his prey.
(1 Chr 29:6 KJV) Then the chief of the fathers and princes of the tribes of Israel, and the captains of thousands and of hundreds, with the rulers of the king's work, offered willingly,
(1 Chr 29:9 KJV) Then the people rejoiced, for that they offered willingly, because with perfect heart they offered willingly to the LORD: and David the king also rejoiced with great joy.
(1 Chr 29:14 KJV) But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.
(1 Chr 29:17 KJV) I know also, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of mine heart I have willingly offered all these things: and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, to offer willingly unto thee.
(2 Chr 17:16 KJV) And next him was Amasiah the son of Zichri, who willingly offered himself unto the LORD; and with him two hundred thousand mighty men of valour. (2 Chr 35:8 KJV) And his princes gave willingly unto the people, to the priests, and to the Levites: Hilkiah and Zechariah and Jehiel, rulers of the house of God, gave unto the priests for the passover offerings two thousand and six hundred small cattle, and three hundred oxen.
(Ezra 1:6 KJV) And all they that were about them strengthened their hands with vessels of silver, with gold, with goods, and with beasts, and with precious things, beside all that was willingly offered.
(Ezra 3:5 KJV) And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.
(Ezra 7:16 KJV) And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem:
(Neh 11:2 KJV) And the people blessed all the men, that willingly offered themselves to dwell at Jerusalem.
(Prov 31:13 KJV) She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. (Lam 3:33 KJV) For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. (Hosea 5:11 KJV) Ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment, because he willingly walked after the commandment.
(John 6:21 KJV) Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.
(Rom 8:20 KJV) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
(1 Cor 9:17 KJV) For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
(Phile 1:14 KJV) But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.
(1 Pet 5:2 KJV) Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; (2 Pet 3:5 KJV) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water.
MB

[Warning: Sarcastic humor ahead. Some you will think I really mean this, but I don't]
O, man, we've been proof-texted!! And I thought people were robots. So people really do have wills by which they choose to act? I should read my Bible more often.

 

[Havensdad]

[Warning: Sarcastic humor ahead. Some you will think I really mean this, but I don't]
O, man, we've been proof-texted!! And I thought people were robots. So people really do have wills by which they choose to act? I should read my Bible more often.

LOL!:laugh:

 

[Tom Butler]

God said he would call all men, and to keep his word, God is obligated to call "ALL MEN".

And to keep that promise, the Gospel must be preached to the whole world (all men) before the end comes, and it's not the voice of the preacher they must hear, but the voice of the "Spirit", calling them to repentance.

Clarification, please. Is it your position that the gospel has been preached to every person without exception since John the Baptist? Including every person alive on the earth today? Is it your view that every single individual in China, for instance, has heard the gospel?

Is it your view that no one who died anywhere in the world today, died without hearing the gospel?

I found it interesting that when Jesus first sent his disciples out, he ordered them not to go to the Gentiles, but only to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel."

I found it interesting that when Paul, Silas and Timothy wanted to go to Biythynia, the Holy Spirit wouldn't let them. (Acts 16:7)

I found it interesting that in the same chapter, shortly after arriving at Troas (after passing by Mysia), Paul had a vision involving a plea from a Macedonian to come over there and help them. They left Troas (without preaching the gospel, as far as we can tell) and headed for Macedonia.

Perhaps you might explain how every individual has heard the gospel.

 

[webdog]

Is it your view that no one who died anywhere in the world today, died without hearing the gospel?

Honestly, can it be proven one way of the other? Scripture doesn't say all haven't heard. It does say they have, however. The meaning of that is debateable, but at least we have that to go off of unlike the stance all haven't heard. That is speculation based on man's finite logic.

 

[Havensdad]

Why haven't you supported it.

So you went from one doctrine to another. I'm not an Arminian so I'm just not impressed. I do not believe Arminius either.

Yeah, and I don't have green eyes, they are "forest colored". A Rose by any other name...

What are you bragging about? I've studied the Bible I know what it says. Are you trying to convince yourself because you certainly are not convincing me of your boast.

REALLY?! Hmm...then you know that it says...

Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.


In context, this is speaking of election, and God's dispensing of mercy.

Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls--
Rom 9:12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."


Tell me: did God "detest" Esau, before He was even created, as it states, or did He "love" Him, and want him to come to a knowledge of the truth? Which is it?

Did He create Pharaoh for the specific purpose of destroying Him, as a vessel for His wrath, as the scripture state? Or not? Why did God PREVENT Pharaoh from repenting?

I have no idea which Bible you've studied. It's obvious that you have not really paid much attention to it at all. Here the Bible speaks of freewill.


MB

You know, this is perhaps the greatest error of all. Taking an ancient text, and trying to place modern definitions upon it.

Can God sin? According to the scriptures, NO. Yet He has free will, right?

Free will is not the ability to choose between two things arbitrarily. Free will is the ability to choose WHAT YOU WANT. And what you WANT is determined by your NATURE. If you are "slaves to sin" "in bondage to sin", etc., you WANT sinful things, and your "free will" allows you to choose them.

God, on the other hand, is righteous. Therefore He "freely chooses" RIGHTEOUS things: His free will allows Him to choose what He wants.

"Free will" humanists, try to make us greater than God, having a "will" which is more free than our Creators. I consider this blasphemy, myself.

 

[webdog]

REALLY?! Hmm...then you know that it says...

Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.


In context, this is speaking of election, and God's dispensing of mercy.

In context it is speaking of God's choosing of Israel as His chosen people for His purpose, and through which the Messiah would come. I understand you view needs this to be about individual salvation, but that is not the context as you claim.

 

[MB]

In him was life, and the life ------ >>>> was the light of men.

1st---->>>>> 26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

AND 2nd------>>>27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This was addressed to the Jews not Christians. Do you keep the Law? Christ said there is no man with out sin.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This is true about the deeper things of God but the gospel is understood even by the simple. Verse 10 tells you what he is talking about.

Job 33
14For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.

15In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;

16Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,

Again taken out of context they do not prove disability because these were addressed to the Jews Not sinners. Not to mention in verse 19 God chastends this man and God does not chasten sinners according to Calvinist. God only chastens those of His own that He loves

John 3..
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Colossians 1:21
21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

I do not disagree with these verses my disagreement is with your interpretation of them. We are all enemies of God to begin with. Isn't it wonderful How God can convince a man and convict him while he is still not saved. Of course you don't believe God can.

You will say then to me, Why does he yet find fault? For who has resisted his will?

A question that can be answered. Aggrippa resisted. Judas resisted. Thomas resisted, Jonah resisted. I guess a question is not a statement of fact is it?. By the way I resisted to, until I was convinced and convicted.
MB

 

[Havensdad]

In context it is speaking of God's choosing of Israel as His chosen people for His purpose, and through which the Messiah would come. I understand you view needs this to be about individual salvation, but that is not the context as you claim.

Not true.

Look:

Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
(This is saying not everyone born of the Line of Jacob, is part of God's elect, Israel)

Rom 9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring,

(Not everyone who is part of the "elect" are of the seed of Abraham)

but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."

(those who are part of the elect {whether or not they are the seed of Jacob})are NAMED according to the name "Israel".

Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God
(birth right(being a child of God) has nothing to do with being in a group, such as "flesh" offspring of Jacob)

but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

(We {those not born of Abraham Isaac and Jacob} are the "children of promise" {along with some believing Jews} and are COUNTED as OFFSPRING)


It then goes on to say that in order that "God's purpose of election might stand", and states

Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

To say this is referring to some kind of "corporate entity" (Israel) is to DENY what Paul just stated!! He just stated that not everyone in the group "children of God" are those in the group "Israel", but that it is INDIVIDUALS WITHIN each of those groups, who were elected by God, who were of the TRUE Israel!

He then goes on to CONTRAST this to Pharaoh: an individual that God raised up for the SPECIFIC purpose of being a vessel for His wrath.

To claim this is speaking of some kind of "national" issue, is preposterous: Paul specifically refutes that idea.

 

[Tom Butler]

I said in a previous post responding to Me4Him:
Is it your view that no one who died anywhere in the world today, died without hearing the gospel?

Honestly, can it be proven one way of the other? Scripture doesn't say all haven't heard. It does say they have, however. The meaning of that is debatable, but at least we have that to go off of unlike the stance all haven't heard. That is speculation based on man's finite logic.

Web, Me4Him asserts that it must be so that all people without exception have heard or will hear the gospel. You read his logic: that God desires all to come to repentance, therefore they must hear the gospel, that God is obligated to make the gospel available to them.

My point is that all we have to do is find one person on the entire planet who has never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ and Me4Him's argument falls. His position requires faith without empirical evidence.

At least I cited scripture where the gospel was actually NOT preached, at the express orders of Jesus (Matt 10:5), and later at the order of the Holy Spirit (Acts 16:7).

Paul wrote that it pleased God to save people through the foolishness of preaching (I Cor 1:21). How were they saved in Asia Minor before Paul and Barnabas arrived? Who preached? How were they saved in North America, South America, Great Britain before any believers arrived with the gospel? If they had the gospel, it came by some method other than preaching. So we have to explain that in light of I Cor 1:21.

Web, maybe you're right, we can't prove it one way or the other. But there is scripture and there is evidence and there is logic--all of which weighs in favor of my view.