Why so many unfounded attacks on Calvinism?

[webdog]

I said in a previous post responding to Me4Him:
Is it your view that no one who died anywhere in the world today, died without hearing the gospel?


Web, Me4Him asserts that it must be so that all people without exception have heard or will hear the gospel. You read his logic: that God desires all to come to repentance, therefore they must hear the gospel, that God is obligated to make the gospel available to them.

My point is that all we have to do is find one person on the entire planet who has never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ and Me4Him's argument falls. His position requires faith without empirical evidence.

At least I cited scripture where the gospel was actually NOT preached, at the express orders of Jesus (Matt 10:5), and later at the order of the Holy Spirit (Acts 16:7).

Paul wrote that it pleased God to save people through the foolishness of preaching (I Cor 1:21). How were they saved in Asia Minor before Paul and Barnabas arrived? Who preached? How were they saved in North America, South America, Great Britain before any believers arrived with the gospel? If they had the gospel, it came by some method other than preaching. So we have to explain that in light of I Cor 1:21.

Web, maybe you're right, we can't prove it one way or the other. But there is scripture and there is evidence and there is logic--all of which weighs in favor of my view.

18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son

Weighing Scripture, logic (no evidence, since it's impossible to prove a negative - that there are thos who haven't heard), it is evident than in order to not believe something, that "something" has to have been an option for not believing in.

A "preacher" doen't have to be human. The Gospel in the Stars is a very viable option in presenting the Gospel. It has been used to tell God's story for thousands of years! We see it in Job even, but first in Genesis, IMO.

The following is from Setterfield.org, and is a plausible option to this dilema (our own Helen )

His (Abraham's) possible understanding of the Gospel: There is an interesting note in verse 5 of Genesis 15. The Lord takes Abram outside and tells him to look up at the stars. Abram is told to "count" or "tell" them if he can. The word translated "count" in the NIV and "tell" in the KJV is "caphar" or "sapar", and means not only "count" or "tell," but to recount, to enumerate, or declare. There may be a deeper meaning here. God tells Abram, "so shall your offspring (or seed) be." This is most often taken simply to mean that Abram will be the father of peoples too numerous to count in line with God’s additional promise in Genesis 22:17. This prophecy has certainly been fulfilled. However, the word "offspring" or "seed" here in Genesis 15:5 is not plural (as that interpretation requires) but singular. This point is emphasised by the apostle Paul in Galatians 3:16 where he stated that the word “seed” in this passage is in fact singular and refers specifically to Messiah.
In Galatians 3:8, Paul makes the further enlightening comment that God proclaimed the Gospel in advance to Abram at this time. Paul then went on to use the quote "all nations will be blessed through you," which is considered part of the Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament. Is it possible, therefore, that there was actually something in Abram’s “listing” of the stars themselves which “recounted” that Gospel promise? This possibility is explored elsewhere, including a fascinating article on the web at http://www.ldolphin.org/zodiac/. If that is the case, then there is an even greater meaning to Genesis 15:6 that "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited to him as righteousness." This would agree exactly with Paul’s words in Romans 4:20-25 where it is written that righteousness is credited to those who believe God and the Gospel about Messiah.

 

[MB]

Yeah, and I don't have green eyes, they are "forest colored". A Rose by any other name...

A perfect example of how much you do not understand. You are terribly limited by the view of only two existing doctrines. Calvinism and Arminianism. I'm a follower of Jesus Christ. I guess you can call me a born again Christian because I follow the doctrine off Christ. Not some ignorant man.

REALLY?! Hmm...then you know that it says...

Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Did I say I saved myself? Where do you get these ideas?. I was convinced By God's word and the Holy Spirit. I was convicted as a result of my being convinced. The Conviction and belief took me to my knees in repentance and surrender. All of it the work of God. "Praise God"

In context, this is speaking of election, and God's dispensing of mercy.

Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls--
Rom 9:12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

This has got to be the worse evidence of election to Salvation I've ever seen. The choosing of Jacob was not unto Salvation but to be a people of God. It has nothing to do what so ever with Salvation. In fact the Jews when Christ came rejected there Savior. That doesn't say to much for the guarantee Calvinist claim that if elected they will be saved no matter what. No Jew was ever saved that didn't believe and there were plenty of them who didn't.

Tell me: did God "detest" Esau, before He was even created, as it states, or did He "love" Him, and want him to come to a knowledge of the truth? Which is it?

God can hate whom ever He wants to. The problem you have is that this passage does not reflect election to Salvation. You do know there is more than one kind of election.
For instance; Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I call this election to Salvation it doesn't guarantee Salvation but it is a choosing of the whole world so that they might be.

Did He create Pharaoh for the specific purpose of destroying Him, as a vessel for His wrath, as the scripture state? Or not? Why did God PREVENT Pharaoh from repenting?

God never harden anyones heart who wasn't already hardened

You know, this is perhaps the greatest error of all. Taking an ancient text, and trying to place modern definitions upon it.

So now that you've been proved wrong and the Bible does speak about freewill you claim I've placed my definitions on it. When all I did was show you verses about free will that you said is not in the Bible.
That's really funny.

Can God sin? According to the scriptures, NO. Yet He has free will, right?

Free will is not the ability to choose between two things arbitrarily. Free will is the ability to choose WHAT YOU WANT. And what you WANT is determined by your NATURE. If you are "slaves to sin" "in bondage to sin", etc., you WANT sinful things, and your "free will" allows you to choose them.

God, on the other hand, is righteous. Therefore He "freely chooses" RIGHTEOUS things: His free will allows Him to choose what He wants.

"Free will" humanists, try to make us greater than God, having a "will" which is more free than our Creators. I consider this blasphemy, myself.

None of this my friend is scripture. All it is ,is your opinion which isn't worth much because you can't prove any of it. Man does have freewill too. though he hasn't learned to fly unaided. Man does not choose the light God chooses the man. All man can do is resist and he does.
MB

 

[Jerome]

"For this cause so many run to this predestination doctrine, because it happens to be a handy place of resort. Now, God has a people whom he will save, a chosen and special people, redeemed by the blood of Christ; but there is no more in that doctrine to deny the other grand truth that whosoever believeth in Jesus Christ is not condemned, than there is in the fact that Abyssinia is in Africa, to contradict the doctrine that Hindostan is in Asia. They are two truths which stand together, and though it may not always be easy for us to reconcile them, it would be more difficult to make them disagree. There never seems to me to be any need to reconcile the two truths, nor, indeed, any practical difficulty in the matter; the difficulty is metaphysical, and what have lost sinners to do with metaphysics? Fixed is everything, from the motion of a grain of dust in the summer's wind to the revolution of a planet in its orbit, and yet man is as free as if there was no God, as independent an actor as if everything were left to chance. I see indelible marks both of predestination and free agency everywhere in God's universe. Then why do you ask questions about your election when God says, “whosoever will”? It is foolish to stand and ask whether you are ordained to come when the invitation bids you come." ---Spurgeon

 

[Jerome]

"But, beloved, a man might preach all these doctrines to the full, and yet not declare all the counsel of God. It is not enough to preach doctrine; we must preach duty, we must faithfully and firmly insist upon practice. So long as you will preach nothing but bare doctrine, there is a certain class of men, of perverted intellect, who will admire you ; but once begin to preach responsibility, —say outright, once for all, that if the sinner perish, it is his own fault, that if any man sinks to hell, his damnation will lie at his own door, and at once there is a cry of 'Inconsistency; how can these two things stand together?'" ---Spurgeon

 

[MB]

"But, beloved, a man might preach all these doctrines to the full, and yet not declare all the counsel of God. It is not enough to preach doctrine; we must preach duty, we must faithfully and firmly insist upon practice. So long as you will preach nothing but bare doctrine, there is a certain class of men, of perverted intellect, who will admire you ; but once begin to preach responsibility, —say outright, once for all, that if the sinner perish, it is his own fault, that if any man sinks to hell, his damnation will lie at his own door, and at once there is a cry of 'Inconsistency; how can these two things stand together?'" ---Spurgeon

They can't stand together because, if everything is predestined unalterably to be. Then not even God can over come that predestination. If God cannot over come predestination then all things are not possible with God. This does not mean that God isn't in control because He is there is no doubt. Because He is in control is why man has the freewill God gave Him with in God's boundries. Man is allowed to choose to sin and rebel against God but this is necessary in order for man to genuinely love God. With out this choice, this alternative to God's Salvation. Then all you have is a spoiled child, that is never satisfied. A child that will not endure Chastisement.
I believe Calvinist hold on to there doctrines because they don't want to admit their resonsibility for there own sin. They can say "well I was predestined to do it." "It wasn't my fault."
MB

 

[Rippon]

They can't stand together because, if everything is predestined unalterably to be. Then not even God can over come that predestination. If God cannot over come predestination then all things are not possible with God. This does not mean that God isn't in control because He is there is no doubt.

Of course they stand together. People are fully responsible for their sins --their sins can't be charged against God.People are accountable for their evil.
Predestination is not at odds with God!The Lord predestines according to His purpose.Predestination is not some force independent of God.

Because He is in control is why man has the freewill God gave Him with in God's boundries.

Freewill within God's boundaries is not "free"-will.

I believe Calvinist hold on to there doctrines because they don't want to admit their resonsibility for there own sin. They can say "well I was predestined to do it." "It wasn't my fault."
MB

That's just filthy rubbish on your part.You make up inane stuff like this all the time.Name one Calvinist who has ever come close to saying this vile junk coming from your keystrokes.Can't do it can you?Engage in truth -- not falsehood.

 

[gb93433]

We didn't give ourself that name. I was a Calvinist years before i used the name. As has been said 2-3 times on this thread before, Calvinist HATERS labled the doctrines Calvinism. Why? Only because John Calvin wrote on them. The doctrines did not come from him, they came from the Bible.

How that apply to today? I know of nobody that gave you that name today other than yourselves. I have never even once called a person a calvinist until they have declared themselves as one.

We call them the doctrines of grace.

Then let's stick with those doctrines. Calvinism covers a huge territory among those who all themselves calvinists. While you and I may call them doctrines of grace I also find there are those who label themselves as calviists who are very legalistic and do not understand grace at all. With them it has become a banenr of pride.

But as you just saw a few post back, non-Calvinist hate when we do this. Hate runs their life. They hate Calvinism, and hate the doctrines that say...."All grace comes from God".

Maybe that has been your experience but I have never heard that from anyone I know. What I have seen and heard is arrogance and pride among some who call themselves calvinists. I do have some good friends who call themselves calvinists but are not arrogasnt about it nor do they talk about it with anyone unless they understand what calvinism is.

I owuld contend that the calvinists on this board who responded to my question, "Did God create evil" really do not understand their Bible well enough and therefore limit God in their view of His sovereignty. I instantly saw their fangs come out as if they were cornered and ful of pride in thinking they know more than they really do.

[quoteYou really do need to take at least one class in church history.[/quote]
You obviously have many assumptions about me which you cannot verify. You never asked any questions first but simply assumed that I neded many things. I said very little about myself and you simply had many unfounded assumptions. It was obvious at times that you never read what I actually wrote and made a response based on your assumptions. The first thing a pastors learns in counsleing is to listen first. Sharing one's faith is more about listening first then talking. A wise man ponders first.

 

[Jerome]

"Ah! tell me not of systems of divinity; tell me not of schemes of theology; tell me not of infallible commentators, or most learned and most arrogant doctors; but tell me of the Great Teacher, who shall instruct us, the sons of God, and shall make us wise to understand all things. He is the Teacher; it matters not what this man or that man says; I rest on no man's boasting authority, nor will you." ---Spurgeon

 

[Jarthur001]

How that apply to today? I know of nobody that gave you that name today other than yourselves. I have never even once called a person a calvinist until they have declared themselves as one.

assumption

You don't know me save a few post I have made. it was not long ago, ...maybe around 5 years ago, that I didn't like the name "Calvinist". When I used "doctrines of Grace", I was told your hidding from the truth. I was told I'm really a Calvinist.

I could care less what you call me. The Lord knows my heart. What I get tried of hearing is things like..."Calvinist follow John Calvin. I have yet to meet a Calvinist that followed the man John Calvin.

Then let's stick with those doctrines.

Go for it.

Maybe that has been your experience but I have never heard that from anyone I know.

Look..(not sure your name...I'll call you joe)...Look joe. Just read the thread and the links given. All the lies told about what they FEEL Calvinist is. Hey...I can understand a misunderstanding. But when one have to go over ever day with the same people there is something wrong. Take from me on this one joe....it happens.

What I have seen and heard is arrogance and pride among some who call themselves calvinists.

I give you this one. Calvinist can become arrogant. The other side can as well. I'll even say that Calvinist do it just as much as the free-willers side. Because one side does it, does not mean the other can do it.

Arrogance is one thing, but hate is still another.

I do have some good friends who call themselves calvinists but are not arrogasnt about it nor do they talk about it with anyone unless they understand what calvinism is.

good

I owuld contend that the calvinists on this board who responded to my question, "Did God create evil" really do not understand their Bible well enough and therefore limit God in their view of His sovereignty.

Joe...

You can't keep saying stuff like that. You keep setting yourself up for a fall. How can you know for sure that you know more about the Bible on that subject then others?

I gave my views. I don't think you replied to them. But this is a good subject to see the hate of Calvinist. There was once a guy that posted on here that was a Calvinist and believed as you do about God making sin. There is one guy on this board today that did everthing he could to get the guy kicked off. Nearly every thread the guy made he was called a Hyper-Calvinist...and he was not.

Now I believe you are wrong on this sin view Joe, but I'm not going to call you a bad guy like others will. Many in the past...great men of God held to the same views as you. I feel they are wrong....but still they are my brothers in Christ.

I instantly saw their fangs come out as if they were cornered and ful of pride in thinking they know more than they really do.

I know where you are coming from. I have seen that before,and the felling you saw...i see as hate. Did you notice others thought you were a Calvinist for saying such things? The fangs...the hate fangs we Calvinist see alot.

You obviously have many assumptions about me which you cannot verify.

Yes...I based them on your post. If you had taken Church history, you would not have said a few things you said.

 

[gb93433]

I could care less what you call me. The Lord knows my heart.

You obviously do care from post #79, "“Married for over 30 years. We have 3 girls all with degrees from Bible College. All are in full time Christian work. My son-in-law is a pastor, I too am a pastor/church planter.”

What I get tried of hearing is things like..."Calvinist follow John Calvin. I have yet to meet a Calvinist that followed the man John Calvin.

Any Presbyterians around?

Christians follow Christ
Calvinists follow_____________.

You can't keep saying stuff like that. You keep setting yourself up for a fall. How can you know for sure that you know more about the Bible on that subject then others?

It does not matter how I stack up against others. I do know that I had this discussion with two seminary professors at SWBTS and both of them agreed with what I said. One was in charge of the doctoral program at one time and I believe was the most knowledgeable Greek professor in the SBC.

How can I ignore what the Bible has it in black and white in:
Is. 45:7, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6, “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?”
Lam. 3:38, “Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?”
You can cover up the truth of scripture with all kinds of sugar and try to explain it away and give cause for unbelief by non-Christians by not accepting the written record of God’s word.
All of scripture is inspired by God. I choose to accept that God knew what he was doing when He inspired that text. I also happen to believe that the correct words were written down.

It is not opinion or what I think that really counts or if I am even comfortable with what the Bible says that is unless those verses are not inspired by God and are also wrong in the MT and LXX. I choose to believe scripture over what one chooses to toss out with what he does not agree with or understand. A good course in Jewish culture would help a lot in understanding those verses. If one chooses to toss out what he does not understand or accept he is no better than an unbeliever.

Now I believe you are wrong on this sin view Joe, but I'm not going to call you a bad guy like others will. Many in the past...great men of God held to the same views as you. I feel they are wrong....but still they are my brothers in Christ.

While at one time I thought just like you but after a careful study of Jewish culture and the way they saw God, it changed my mind and kept me from trying to juggle the text to fit what I thought (eisegesis) rather than developing my understanding of God from scripture by looking at the historical context of scripture..
I accept the fact that you feel I am wrong. I happen disagree with you especially looking at both the MT and LXX. I cannot escape the fact what God inspired. I do believe that an understanding of the Jewish culture leads to an accurate understanding of those words in the text. To leave them on the page in our culture and interpret them in light of American-Greek philosophy is wrong when it must be interpreted in light of the Jewish viewpoint as most of scripture should be because it was written by those from a Jewish background.

 

[Rippon]

Christians follow Christ
Calvinists follow_____________.

Calvinists follow Christ.

Don't you dare try to say otherwise.Speak truthfully.Your credibility is on the line.In addition nyou'll have to give an account of the words you say(type).Charging fellow Christians of following anyone but Christ is sinfully untrue and worthy of rebuke.

 

[Rippon]

We're on the 20th page of this thread.And true to form, many unfounded attacks on Calvinism are plainly in view,sad to say.

It would be a mercy for a mod to shut this thing down.

 

[gb93433]

I know where you are coming from. I have seen that before, and the felling you saw...i see as hate. Did you notice others thought you were a Calvinist for saying such things? The fangs...the hate fangs we Calvinist see a lot.

It happens to anyone who tries to follow Christ and being falsely accused by those who are actually following satan and think they are following God just like Paul did. The think they are doing God a favor by their actions and attitude.

When I pastored my last church it was growing quite rapidly and people were coming to Christ and being discipled. Ministries were starting all the time in the community to reach people. The deacons did not like it that they could not find a park place and did not know the new people. They were caught adding to the attendance each week. They were also caught doing the church books wrong and when I suggested an audit they did not like that. One of them had an altercation with a youth and another deacon lied about what he saw. I told one of the deacons that he needed help and he also needed to humble himself. He just sneered at me. In Jan of 2000 I received a phone call telling me that he shot and killed himself with a gun.

One of the men started a gossip mill about me and it spread to others simply because his daughter came to Christ and I baptized her. She came to me claiming that when she was first baptized that she came forward just because her friends did. I baptized her and her dad got mad telling me that she had already been baptized years earlier. That same deacon told me, "Your family is just too nice." One of his kids had been picked up for smoking pot. The lady in charge of youth ministry when i got there told me that she was going to divorce her husband. I told he rthat if she did that she would be removed from the youth. I had also gotten a few complaints about her helping a high school male with his homework at her house when her husband was not home. When I told the lady that she would be removed from youth work if she divorced her husband she told the deacons and the deacons sided with her. She later remarried and her husband divorced her by shacking up with another woman.

So I know what it is like to be shot at from both sides. I have been shot at by the fundamentalists, the KJVO, and the liberals. I am reminded that is what happened to Jesus as well. Neither political camp liked him. He would not side with any of them except to remind them of what God wanted.

There were times when I spoke on Christ in the free speech platform in college and I had hecklers. My own family shunned me telling me that I was just going through a fad. Well that fad has lasted more almost 38 years. Most of my relatives and family have come to know Christ. Things are very different today because of Christ in our lives.

Those who pull out their fangs is nothing new any more.

“What can man do to me that God has not already done?”

 

[gb93433]

Calvinists follow Christ.

Don't you dare try to say otherwise.Speak truthfully.Your credibility is on the line.In addition nyou'll have to give an account of the words you say(type).Charging fellow Christians of following anyone but Christ is sinfully untrue and worthy of rebuke.

If any believer claims to follow Christ then how does him following an _______ism or joining up with an ________ism serve to edify the body of believers? If it does nothing to serve to edify the body then it is useless.

How is any _______ism from faith in Jesus Christ? The fruit is the product of the tree it comes from.

When I read about the vine and the branches I am unable to find any kind of ________ism connected somewhere.

Why would anyone need anything other than Christ alone. I do not need Christ + calvinism. Christ + arminianism, Christ + dispensationalsim, or Christ + any other kind of ism. Like the recent songwriter wrote Christ alone.

If I carry something I do not need it is just a weight to drag me down. We are to rid ourselves of every weight that so easily entangles us.

 

[Rippon]

If any believer claims to follow Christ then how does him following an _______ism or joining up with an ________ism serve to edify the body of believers? If it does nothing to serve to edify the body then it is useless.

How is any ism from faith in Jesus Christ? The fruit is a product of the tree it comes from.

When I read about the vine and the branches I am unable to find any kind of ism connected somewhere.

Your posts do not edify.Don't try to speak of edifying the body of believers.You operate a one-man a rumor-mill.

 

[gb93433]

Your posts do not edify.Don't try to speak of edifying the body of believers.You operate a one-man a rumor-mill.

You are right in that I should not have participated in a discussion such as calvinism that does not edify.

 

[Rippon]

You are right in that I should not have participated in a discussion such as calvinism that does not edify.

Saying untrue things regularly and not altering your views upon being corrected numerous times is not evidence of Christian maturity gb (or Joe).

 

[gb93433]

Saying untrue things regularly and not altering your views upon being corrected numerous times is not evidence of Christian maturity gb (or Joe).

Could you give at least one or two examples.

 

[Pipedude]

It would be a mercy for a mod to shut this thing down.

You wanna know what would really be a mercy?

 

[Rippon]

You wanna know what would really be a mercy?

Go ahead and tell us.