So Jesus didn't have to die for the elect to be saved?
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Why so much Angst About Limited atonement?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
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So Jesus didn't have to die for the elect to be saved?
Resurrection from whence? From life? If there is no death, there is no resurrection. You need both.
Rom 6:5 - "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" If you have not died with Christ in the likeness of His death, you will not be raised again to life in the likeness of His resurrection.
Rom 5:10 - "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." Both is needed.....
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PreachTony
Active Member
No one would argue that point, Steaver. Of course there is no resurrection without death. The point Paul is making is that the death alone is not enough. If Christ had only died, then we would still be in our sins. Just as Israel was any time a sacrifice was made. Sure, atonement was made for a season, but since the sacrificed animal lacked the ability to pick its life back up, it was only a temporary atonement.
Christ, though, made it clear that He was laying His life down, and that He had power to pick it back up. That's what sealed the deal for us, because it fully accomplished that which we could not accomplish. We could never raise ourselves from the dead. Christ could. So He did just that, exiting the tomb triumphant over Death, Hell, and the Grave. Now we no longer have to fear the physical death, because there is no permanency in it for those who believe. Instead, we have a hope of resurrection. Our faith is not vain, nor are we any longer in our sins, because the way has been fully made for us. Not solely through the death on the cross, but accomplished through the resurrection of Christ and His defeat of death on our behalf.
Amen! And my point remains valid. Both Christ's death and His resurrection is what saves. I never said it was just His death. Blessings!
PreachTony
Active Member
I misread who Willis was responding to in Post 55. Apologies. Good discussion, though.
Been there done that. :smilewinkgrin: Always good to discuss scripture! :thumbsup:
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
This is true, of course. But, don't forget Christ's life.
Christ lived the life we couldn't live. He lived a life of perfect submission to the will and Law of God--something we couldn't do.
We also need His life to be saved. After all, if Jesus came only to die for sins, there's no reason He couldn't have been killed during The Slaughter of the Innocents. The Father could have placed all the sins of His people on Him at that point and those sins would have (theoretically) been paid for. Of course, that wasn't the plan. But why?
We see Jesus' temptations (three, a not-insignificant number) "undoing" the temptation of Genesis. We see that Jesus is living the life we can't live--building up righteousness that will be imputed (transferred to us).
We are only able to "stand faultless before the throne" because we are "clothed in His righteousness alone." That righteousness was won through a sinless life. So our sins being imputed to Him pay our sin debt, leaving us as if we were sinless. But, we have no righteousness unless His righteousness is imputed to us.
So, we are saved by His life, His death, and His resurrection.
Blessings,
The Archangel
Summed up in this one verse:
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
savedbymercy
New Member
You quote that verse but i cant see how you believe it or understand it ! That world of Jn 1:29 has no sins to be punished for, but many shall die in their sins and unbelief Jn 8:24
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
How can that be so, if He has taken away their sins as the Lamb of God ?
So Jn 1:29 is restricted to the world of believers, the Sheep !
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Further Elaboration on Christ’s Intercession
Christ’s intercession on behalf of those given Him by the Father is an integral aspect of His office as their High Priest.
It is this intercession which is elaborated in John 17 (pre-cross), Luke 23:34 (on the cross), and Romans 8:32-34 (post-cross):
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Please note the correlation of ‘us’ in verse 32 with ‘elect’ in verse 33.
Then note the same correlation with ‘elect’ in verse 33 and ‘us’ in verse 34.
Simply put, Christ was crucified for us, the elect, and intercedes for us, the elect.
Verse 32 also acknowledges that ‘all things’ necessary for justification of the elect are freely [i.e. graciously] given to the elect having been purchased for us by Christ.
God the Father has given a people to His Son.
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. (John 17:2)
Please note that although Christ is Lord over all men, He has been authorized by the Father to give eternal life to only those [i.e. the elect] whom the Father gave Him.
Christ’s atonement is limited to that specific group.
Those given are called ‘God’s elect’ because it is the Father who chose them for salvation.
God the Father chose them because He loved them:
……thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. (verse 23b)
The Elect believe the doctrines of Christ, which are the doctrines of God the Father:
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them… (verse 8a)
Jesus states emphatically that He DOES NOT pray for the world, but only for those Elect given Him by the Father.
I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. (verse 9)
Christ prays not only for those Elect who have believed in Him in the past and present, He prays for those who will come to believe in Him in the future.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: (verses 20-21)
In order for future believers to be ‘one’ with God’s Elect, as well as ‘one’ in the Father and Son, they, too, must be the Elect chosen by the Father……for whom Christ died and gives the gift of eternal life.
The non-elect [i.e. ‘reprobate']are synonymous with the ‘world’…….haters of the Elect, God and Christ.
The Elect are not the ‘world.’
I have given them [the Elect]thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Remember, Christ does not pray for the world, i.e. the reprobate.
Also please consider Christ always knew who are the reprobate: those not given Him by the Father.
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
---------------------------
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
----------------------------
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Therefore, it is impossible that Christ on the cross prayed for the world consisting of every one ever born.
To do so would be not only contradictory to common sense [i.e. praying for those whom Christ knew were reprobate and would never be granted eternal life], but would be sinfully opposed to the command of God the Father which designates Christ's atonement as efficient for only those given Him by the Father.
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
Christ makes atonement for those Elect given Him by the Father.
He loses none.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (John 6:39)
Christ effectually gives eternal life to all those given Him by the Father.
NB Christ prays forgiveness for the ignorant who ‘know not what they do.’
Faith and repentance are conditions necessary for forgiveness of sins.
Neither flow from ignorance.
Therefore, by praying for their forgiveness Christ is also praying that the blessed spiritual gifts of faith and repentance be effectually given the Elect on His behalf.
Had the Elect the power to believe by good use of their own ‘free’ will, as our opponents teach, Christ’s prayer should have been:
Father, forgive them for they know what they do and what they believe.
Christ’s intercession on behalf of those given Him by the Father is an integral aspect of His office as their High Priest.
It is this intercession which is elaborated in John 17 (pre-cross), Luke 23:34 (on the cross), and Romans 8:32-34 (post-cross):
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Please note the correlation of ‘us’ in verse 32 with ‘elect’ in verse 33.
Then note the same correlation with ‘elect’ in verse 33 and ‘us’ in verse 34.
Simply put, Christ was crucified for us, the elect, and intercedes for us, the elect.
Verse 32 also acknowledges that ‘all things’ necessary for justification of the elect are freely [i.e. graciously] given to the elect having been purchased for us by Christ.
God the Father has given a people to His Son.
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. (John 17:2)
Please note that although Christ is Lord over all men, He has been authorized by the Father to give eternal life to only those [i.e. the elect] whom the Father gave Him.
Christ’s atonement is limited to that specific group.
Those given are called ‘God’s elect’ because it is the Father who chose them for salvation.
God the Father chose them because He loved them:
……thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. (verse 23b)
The Elect believe the doctrines of Christ, which are the doctrines of God the Father:
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them… (verse 8a)
Jesus states emphatically that He DOES NOT pray for the world, but only for those Elect given Him by the Father.
I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. (verse 9)
Christ prays not only for those Elect who have believed in Him in the past and present, He prays for those who will come to believe in Him in the future.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: (verses 20-21)
In order for future believers to be ‘one’ with God’s Elect, as well as ‘one’ in the Father and Son, they, too, must be the Elect chosen by the Father……for whom Christ died and gives the gift of eternal life.
The non-elect [i.e. ‘reprobate']are synonymous with the ‘world’…….haters of the Elect, God and Christ.
The Elect are not the ‘world.’
I have given them [the Elect]thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Remember, Christ does not pray for the world, i.e. the reprobate.
Also please consider Christ always knew who are the reprobate: those not given Him by the Father.
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
---------------------------
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
----------------------------
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Therefore, it is impossible that Christ on the cross prayed for the world consisting of every one ever born.
To do so would be not only contradictory to common sense [i.e. praying for those whom Christ knew were reprobate and would never be granted eternal life], but would be sinfully opposed to the command of God the Father which designates Christ's atonement as efficient for only those given Him by the Father.
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
Christ makes atonement for those Elect given Him by the Father.
He loses none.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (John 6:39)
Christ effectually gives eternal life to all those given Him by the Father.
NB Christ prays forgiveness for the ignorant who ‘know not what they do.’
Faith and repentance are conditions necessary for forgiveness of sins.
Neither flow from ignorance.
Therefore, by praying for their forgiveness Christ is also praying that the blessed spiritual gifts of faith and repentance be effectually given the Elect on His behalf.
Had the Elect the power to believe by good use of their own ‘free’ will, as our opponents teach, Christ’s prayer should have been:
Father, forgive them for they know what they do and what they believe.
Except that Jesus stated that salvation was completed and finished when he died, and that the bible does teach us that we who have been saved were reconciled back to the father by and thru the cross of Christ, that his shed bllod was atonement in full right at that moment that he died!
Also agree with you that in His resurrection was the confirmation that salvation was really a done deal, as he rose again for our justification!
savedbymercy
New Member
convicted1
Guest
Didn't say that, did I?
If Jesus died and had not risen, we're still sinners...how hard is that to fathom?
Stick someone under water in baptism and leave them there and they're dead. Same concept...
convicted1
Guest
I'd offer steaver a color by number bible but he'd eat all the crayons...j/k...
He had to die, lay for three days and rise to fulfill scriptures...if He died and was not resurrected, we're w/o hope...
convicted1
Guest
We aren't saved based solely upon His death is my point...it took His resurrection to complete our salvation...
It was just an opinion. I made a point by quoting scripture. Ask any one in elementary school what the meaning of the verse is. They will tell you. Calvinist or not, any child will tell you the meaning of that verse. But you come along and redefine the words in order to make it fit into your theological box. It doesn't fit. You assign different meanings to such obvious words that even a child can understand the verse. Then you will accuse the child that he can't understand "spiritual truths". Correct?
The verse (John 1:29) means exactly what it says, and needs no redefining by you.
savedbymercy
New Member
See how you excuse your sins by making such a accusations ? That is just cold blooded ! But anyway the world of Jn 1:29 has no sins charged to it, their sins were charged to the Lamb of God, and He took them away before Gods Law and Justice, and God will not impute their sins back to them 2 Cor 5 :19 ! But some men do have their sins charged to them John 8:24 ! So they can not be part of the world of Jn 1:29 !
convicted1
Guest
Jeremiah 50:20 suports you...
Christ lived, died, was buried, rose from the dead, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the throne of God, and NOW makes intercession for His saints. Not until His ascension did He assume the office of Intercessor.
You cannot conflate these passages.
No. Paul is writing to the church, that is the saints in Christ at Rome. Naturally he uses the personal pronoun of "we" and "us." Is he excluding the Ephesians and Philippians? Actually, he is. Only the Romans and Paul are included in the "we" and "us" in context here. He is not writing to the world, neither to all the elect. He is writing to the saints in Rome.
Your application of these verses to yourself is an application you make.
Your application of these verse to "the elect" is an application you make.
--The letter is to Rome.
The elect at Rome. That is who he is writing to.
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, (all in Rome) how shall he not with him also freely give us (who are in Rome) all things?
--All in the world who believe on Him. John 3:16
Unlike Paul's letter for the church at Rome, this is Jesus' Great High Priestly Prayer, and has nothing to do with an epistle written to Rome.
The Father, in his omniscience, has given to Christ, all that believe on his name. He doesn't force anyone to come to Christ. The atonement isn't limited. Grace isn't resistible. Depravity isn't so depraved that man is unable to come to Christ. In His sovereign grace God Almighty has made a way that man can freely choose to come to Christ or not to come. But God in his omniscience already knows what decision man has already made. Therefore before the foundation of the world, he has "given" those to Christ.
He was praying for his disciples if you read the context.
Perhaps, they chose God. And God knew that they would.
1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
Calvin never wrote much about love. The Bible does, but Calvin didn't.
To him it was about God choosing and selecting. God is a God of love.
Man responds in love and to love.
Irrelevant conclusion. This is the Great High Priestly Prayer.
The Great High Priestly Prayer. He is praying for His disciples. He is about to go to the cross. He is telling the Father that he has accomplished the work that the Father gave Him.
Why are you turning this beautiful prayer of Christ into a Calvinist rant?
Check John 3:16-18. There is the world, the entire world. As it was there, so it is here. You can't avoid it.
Did you quote these verses:
John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
John 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
--Tell me: does "the world" mean the "world of the elect"?
Odd that you left these verses out?
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
--He had already defined the elect. But God knew who they were before the earth was formed.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
--They decided their own fate. God did not seal their fate.
Sadly, many of them are of this world, but God hates it. (1John 2:15,16; James 4:4; Rom.12:1,2; 2Cor.6:14-17; Rom.16:17).
Remember, Christ does not pray for the world, i.e. the reprobate.
You mean those that chose not to believe, as it says: "they were that believed not." Read what you post!
Not if you believe what the Bible says.
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