Why so much Angst About Limited atonement?

[DHK]

To do so would be not only contradictory to common sense [i.e. praying for those whom Christ knew were reprobate and would never be granted eternal life], but would be sinfully opposed to the command of God the Father which designates Christ's atonement as efficient for only those given Him by the Father.

What is contradictory to common sense is people as yourself and SBM arguing that John 1:29
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
does not mean what it really says.
Take it to any elementary school; have a number of school children read it; ask for their interpretation and see if any of them will come up with your interpretation which SBM says "the world of the elect."
But in order to do so you must change the meaning of words to make it fit into you theological Calvinistic little box. You twist scripture deliberately.
You don't want the verse to mean what it actually says. You want to change the meaning.
Yes, Christ died for all the sins of the world. But that doesn't make sense to you. It contradicts your theology, not mine. So go ahead--change the meanings of words to make it fit.

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

Christ makes atonement for those Elect given Him by the Father.

He loses none.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (John 6:39)

Christ effectually gives eternal life to all those given Him by the Father.

NB Christ prays forgiveness for the ignorant who ‘know not what they do.’

Faith and repentance are conditions necessary for forgiveness of sins.

Neither flow from ignorance.

Therefore, by praying for their forgiveness Christ is also praying that the blessed spiritual gifts of faith and repentance be effectually given the Elect on His behalf.

Had the Elect the power to believe by good use of their own ‘free’ will, as our opponents teach, Christ’s prayer should have been:

Father, forgive them for they know what they do and what they believe.

Nonsense. Your basic conclusion is: I don't believe the Bible as it is written.
I must change it according to my own Calvinistic theology at every opportunity. You just demonstrated that.

Jesus prayed: "Father forgive them..."
They heard him; how could they not?
The question is: Would they accept His forgiveness or reject it?
It was their decision, not a decision that the Father would impose upon the Roman soldiers by ruling--"Non-elect! Damned to Hell!" "Case closed" Saith the Lord. That is Calvinism, not the Bible.

 

[savedbymercy]

Jeremiah 50:20 suports you...

Yes it does, that is speaking of the world of Jn 1:29!

 

[convicted1]

Yes it does, that is speaking of the world of Jn 1:29!

 

[DHK]

Yes it does, that is speaking of the world of Jn 1:29!

Just like it does here, in the same gospel:

John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

 

[savedbymercy]

Just like it does here, in the same gospel:

John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

You just quote scripture and don't believe or understand them! You still evading earlier comments! The world of Jn 1:29 has no sins charged to it! So those who shall died in their sins John 8:24 can't be of that world!

 

[Protestant]

Not until His ascension did He assume the office of Intercessor.
You cannot conflate these passages.

Pastor, I was quite stunned at your statement.

Intercessory prayer is the act of praying on behalf of others.

Christ prayed for others while on Earth, on the cross, and is now in Heaven praying for the Elect.

Examples on Earth:

But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Sanctify them through thy truth.

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me

On the cross:

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

In Heaven:

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

No man comes to the Father but by me.

Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

Pastor, as our High Priest, Intercessor and Mediator Christ perpetually stands between the Elect and the Father as our Advocate.

But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

 

[DHK]

You just quote scripture and don't believe or understand them! You still evading earlier comments! The world of Jn 1:29 has no sins charged to it! So those who shall died in their sins John 8:24 can't be of that world!

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Without you adding or taking away from the Word of God, did Christ come to take away the sins of the world?
That is what the verse says--that he came to take away the sins of the world. He doesn't redefine it as you do. If he did, then perhaps it would be defined only as the world of the Jews of the first century, for that is the context it is written in, or even more specifically: the world of John the Baptist and his disciples, his disciples being the elect.
What is to say that the world in John 1:29 should not be confined only to the disciples of John the Baptist rather than the disciples of Calvin??
What gives you the license to redefine the words at your own liberty.

John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
--Obviously "the world" here means the entire world. Are you going to admit that?

What does John 8:24 mean. It means that those that deny the deity of Christ "that I AM he," shall die (spiritually or eternally separated from God).
Obviously a person who rejects Christ is not saved.
But Christ still died for them. There is no person who Christ did not die for, no sin he did not atone for, no person that he did not love.

He is willing that all should be saved;
that none should perish;
that all should come to repentance;
and he made a propitiation for the sins of the whole world--the entire world.

 

[DHK]

Pastor, I was quite stunned at your statement.

Intercessory prayer is the act of praying on behalf of others.

Christ prayed for others while on Earth, on the cross, and is now in Heaven praying for the Elect.

I never said He didn't pray for others. I said that when he ascended into heaven he assumed "the office" of our "Intercessor". There is a difference.

Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

 

[Yeshua1]

We aren't saved based solely upon His death is my point...it took His resurrection to complete our salvation...

i agree with you on that, its just the bible also clearly teaches us that all atonement was accomplished by his shed blood and was completed on the Cross...

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God,

Yeah and that has been established !

Without you adding or taking away from the Word of God, did Christ come to take away the sins of the world?
That is what the verse says-

He took them away. Those whom He died for and took them away for, dont have them imputed to them, charged against them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now that being the case those who have their sins laid to their charge, imputed to them, as is the case of these Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

So its obvious that #1 their sins are imputed to them and #2 that they have not been taken away by the Lamb of God !

So they are obviously not part of the World of Jn 1:29 !

 

[steaver]

Didn't say that, did I?

If Jesus died and had not risen, we're still sinners...how hard is that to fathom?

Stick someone under water in baptism and leave them there and they're dead. Same concept...

convicted; http://http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2213810&postcount=55 We aren't saved by His death, but His life. His death brought the atonement, but if He had not arisen, we'd still be in our sins...

steaver; http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2213835&postcount=57 I would say we are saved by both. Actually Jesus is eternal life, He only died physically. Without that physical death, no one could be saved by His life. He gives this living water when we call upon Him by faith

convicted; http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2213854&postcount=60 Wrong again. If Jesus was not risen we'd still be in our sine....we are saved by His life. I live so ye can live also....

convicted; http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2214089&postcount=75 I'd offer steaver a color by number bible but he'd eat all the crayons...j/k...

He had to die, lay for three days and rise to fulfill scriptures...if He died and was not resurrected, we're w/o hope...

Glad you came around to my original comment and conclusion.... (I gave the sequence of the conversation in numerical order and I added some color for you) :smilewinkgrin:

 

[DHK]

So they are obviously not part of the World of Jn 1:29 !

Can you establish from scripture how you know if you are a part of that world or not?

 

[Protestant]

Paul is writing to the church, that is the saints in Christ at Rome. Naturally he uses the personal pronoun of "we" and "us." Is he excluding the Ephesians and Philippians? Actually, he is. Only the Romans and Paul are included in the "we" and "us" in context here. He is not writing to the world, neither to all the elect. He is writing to the saints in Rome.
Your application of these verses to yourself is an application you make.
Your application of these verse to "the elect" is an application you make.
--The letter is to Rome.

Pastor, I am again stunned at this statement.

If the teaching found in the Epistle to the Romans does not relate to all Christians of all ages then we need discard the Bible and determine doctrine based on our personal feelings, interpreting Scripture according to the climate of the times in which we live.

Is Paul lying when he states unequivocally:

ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Are we not to read and learn from the OT?

Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Do you teach from the Bible by first admonishing your church that the Epistle which you are about to read was not written to them, but to a group of Christians in a foreign locale, some 2,000 years ago; therefore, do not take to heart all that is written because it was not intended for their ears?

 

[Protestant]

Protestant wrote: “God the Father has given a people to His Son.”

--All in the world who believe on Him. John 3:16

But no one believes on Christ unless Christ first prays for them, then dies for them, then applies the gifts of the Spirit to them that they could become one with Christ and the Father.

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world does not mean what it really says.
Take it to any elementary school; have a number of school children read it; ask for their interpretation and see if any of them will come up with your interpretation which SBM says "the world of the elect."

I agree that young children would take the literal interpretation, which is why they are not pastors and teachers.

By using your previous interpretation which stated the Epistle to the Romans was meant only for them, you should at least be consistent and interpret John’s declaration as follows:

Behold, the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the Jewish world of Israel…….since that was the locale in which John spoke to the Jews who were with him.

However, if Christ took away the sins of every human being who ever lived in the world, then all would be justified and all would be heaven bound.

But that is not so.

Therefore, there must be a better explanation, such as……..

Christ atones for the sins of both Jewish and Gentiles who believe on Him.

Christ does not atone for the sins of unbelievers.

Nor does He die for them.

He lays down His life for His sheep only.

 

[savedbymercy]

Can you establish from scripture how you know if you are a part of that world or not?

I am not here to discuss me ! Jn 1:29 isnt speaking about anyone who has their sins charged to them, that would mean Christ didnt take them away !

 

[DHK]

I am not here to discuss me ! Jn 1:29 isnt speaking about anyone who has their sins charged to them, that would mean Christ didnt take them away !

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The Bible is not just a textbook of inert uninspired words, impersonal thoughts that have no effect on our lives. Or is that how you treat it? Is it just a Calvinistic text to debate logic and philosophy and that is all?

The verse above states that Christ is "the propitiation for our sins...and the sins of the whole world."

Which world?
The world in John's time.
The world that John was writing to--mostly Gentile Christians of the first century living close to the Roman empire.
Which world?
How can you be sure that the world stated includes your world?

It is a matter of interpretation. And it is of utmost importance.

 

[DHK]

Pastor, I am again stunned at this statement.

If the teaching found in the Epistle to the Romans does not relate to all Christians of all ages then we need discard the Bible and determine doctrine based on our personal feelings, interpreting Scripture according to the climate of the times in which we live.

I question the hermeneutical principles used by Calvinists.
When the meaning doesn't fit change the meaning. That seems to be the rule that is in effect no matter what the context is, so I am putting the context in front of you more clearly.

For example you used or referred to Romans 8:32,
Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Notice all the personal pronouns: we, us, etc.
They are used because it was a personal letter written from Paul to the saints at Rome.
Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Does that mean that the doctrine taught here is applicable only to the Romans? No.
However, it helps to keep that in mind. It has one interpretation and many applications. And as the truth applied the believers at Rome, it also applies to us.

But what about:
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
--Does it apply just to the church at Rome?
Does it apply to those outside of the church at Rome, that is unbelievers in the first century? (Obviously speaking of salvation).
Is it limited only to the elect? Which elect? First century? Our century? How do you know?
How does the Calvinist know "if thou shalt confess" includes him?
How can he know if Paul had in mind, him, (the Calvinist) as one of those elect?
After all, it was a personal letter.

 

[convicted1]

Glad you came around to my original comment and conclusion.... (I gave the sequence of the conversation in numerical order and I added some color for you) :smilewinkgrin:

Let me break this down to its simplest terms...


We were/are not saved by His death. Why do I state this? Death brought the shedding of blood, the remission of sins, the reconciliation of sinners back in accord with God.

If all Jesus did was die, and His body was still lying in the grave, we'd still be dead in our sins, without hope in this world.

It took Jesus' death to bring the atonement/reconciliation, but that by itself, doesn't save one sinner. Without Him dying, He could not be resurrected. It took His resurrection from the dead to save sinners....


Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.(Acts 2:22-36)


It took Christ being resurrected to make final completion in the procurring of salvation many....without Him being resurrected(death only), we're still in our sins...

 

[savedbymercy]

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The Bible is not just a textbook of inert uninspired words, impersonal thoughts that have no effect on our lives. Or is that how you treat it? Is it just a Calvinistic text to debate logic and philosophy and that is all?

The verse above states that Christ is "the propitiation for our sins...and the sins of the whole world."

Which world?
The world in John's time.
The world that John was writing to--mostly Gentile Christians of the first century living close to the Roman empire.
Which world?
How can you be sure that the world stated includes your world?

It is a matter of interpretation. And it is of utmost importance.

You dont believe or understand that verse neither !

When God has been proppitiated for one, He has no wrath against them, His wrath has been propitiated, yet many are under God's Wrath Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Hence they whom God's wrath abideth on, cannot possible be of the World of 1 Jn 2:2, that would be a contradiction !

So 1 Jn 2:2 applies to only the Sheep, the world of believers, the Elect, the Church !

It also appears that you are without understanding of the word world ! Its the greek word kosmos and can be defined merely as this:

VIII.any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

Any collection of particulars, so for instance, The Collection of all the Sheep is the World !

 

[steaver]

Let me break this down to its simplest terms...


We were/are not saved by His death. Why do I state this? Death brought the shedding of blood, the remission of sins, the reconciliation of sinners back in accord with God.

If all Jesus did was die, and His body was still lying in the grave, we'd still be dead in our sins, without hope in this world.

It took Jesus' death to bring the atonement/reconciliation, but that by itself, doesn't save one sinner. Without Him dying, He could not be resurrected. It took His resurrection from the dead to save sinners....


Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.(Acts 2:22-36)


It took Christ being resurrected to make final completion in the procurring of salvation many....without Him being resurrected(death only), we're still in our sins...

It is your lack of clarification that gets you into trouble brother. You don't say we are not saved by His death and then later say well we are but not "only" by his death. I never said "only" by his death, so you are building up straw men to tear down, plus you are contradicting yourself by saying we are not saved by His death and then ending with we must have both His death and resurrection, which is what I said in the beginning of this conversation. Your running this conversation in circles.

Simple question for you and your answer will clear this all up; Can we be saved without the death/atonement of Jesus Christ? Note I didn't say "only" anywhere, can the death of Jesus Christ be missing and we still be saved?