Why so much Angst About Limited atonement?

[steaver]

2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
2Pe 1:11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
--So you believe salvation is by works?

Can any person practice these things and they will have eternal life?

:thumbs: I have been watching this back and forth and we are still waiting for an answer. But if this is Icon's answer, then he believes his good works are saving him.

 

[DHK]

Another error in your belief and which dishonours Christ, that those Christ died for are not free from the penalty of their sins and Justified from them, that is redemption! Those Christ died for have to their account redemption by His blood Eph 1:7 !

Not my definition, but even assuming you are correct then you have a problem with "who are the ones Christ died for--the elect--the world"?
How do you define that world of 1John 2:2 and John 3:16?
How do you know it includes you?
What if John simply meant "the world of the first century"?
What guarantees do you have that you are included in "that world", in "the elect"? How do you know?

 

[savedbymercy]

Not my definition, but even assuming you are correct then you have a problem with "who are the ones Christ died for--the elect--the world"?
How do you define that world of 1John 2:2 and John 3:16?
How do you know it includes you?
What if John simply meant "the world of the first century"?
What guarantees do you have that you are included in "that world", in "the elect"? How do you know?

Its obvious that Christ death wasn't for all without exception since some folk are under His wrath John 3:36, Gods Wrath has been propitiated for those He died for 1jn 2 :2 ! So yes He died for only some who the scriptures call the Elect, that is the world of 1jn 2 :2 !

 

[convicted1]

You evaded my points and the Truth. You deny the saving death of Christ! Those Christ died for are saved by His death and by His life! Peter wrote that believers had been saved by His death when he wrote that by His stripes you were healed 1Peter 2:24 ! You don't believe it and deny it!

I evaded nothing. Jesus' death alone...if He was still in the tomb, we're still sinners...our faith and preaching would be in vain...

 

[savedbymercy]

I evaded nothing. Jesus' death alone...if He was still in the tomb, we're still sinners...our faith and preaching would be in vain...

Yeah you did evade, and you deny the saving death of Christ! By His stripes believers were healed, not by His Resurrection, that was evidence of what His death alone accomplished !

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
2Pe 1:11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Your false teaching has taken it's toll on you.I quoted directly from scripture to answer your challenge...and here is your response;

--So you believe salvation is by works?

As I have directly quoted the Apostle Peter word for word and the instruction he gives to elect sheep....you are questioning the Apostle peter himself as to if he believed in salvation by works...very foolish indeed!:thumbs:

Can any person practice these things and they will have eternal life?

To ask this question again shows you are clueless concerning the grace of God in salvation... Why do I say that?

You have just said that salvation leaves a person living no different from the unsaved....you said it right here;

How can you tell if you are not under the wrath of God just as much as your unsaved neighbor may be?

What is the difference between his lifestyle and yours except that you might be a little more "religious."

So in your mind....the Holy Spirit makes no difference in the life of a saved person, he lives like his unsaved neighbor???...that is why you hold to the carnal christian heresy....


Such false ideas lead to a comment by your eager disciple...The Steaver...

I have been watching this back and forth and we are still waiting for an answer. But if this is Icon's answer, then he believes his good works are saving him.

the blind are leading the blind...both fall in the ditch....

real Christians have always believed in a salvation that is all of grace, THAT WORKS... He does not live just like his unsaved neighbor.

 

[convicted1]

Yeah you did evade, and you deny the saving death of Christ! By His stripes believers were healed, not by His Resurrection, that was evidence of what His death alone accomplished !

If Jesus is still in the tomb, are we still in our sins? A yes or no will suffice...

 

[convicted1]

DHK



Your false teaching has taken it's toll on you.I quoted directly from scripture to answer your challenge...ane here is your response;




As I have directly quoted the Apostle Peter word for word and the instruction he gives to elect sheep....you are questioning the Apostle peter himself as to if he believed in salvation by works...very foolish indeed!:thumbs:

To ask this question again shows you are clueless concerning the grace of God in salvation... Why do I say that?

You have just said that salvation leaves a person living no different from the unsaved....you said it right here;




So in your mind....the Holy Spirit makes no difference in the life of a saved person, he lives like his unsaved neighbor???...that is why you hold to the carnal christian heresy....


Such false ideas lead to a comment by your eager disciple...The Steaver...



the blind are leading the blind...both fall in the ditch....

real Christians have always believed in a salvation that is all of grace, THAT WORKS... He does not live just like his unsaved neighbor.

 

[savedbymercy]

I evaded nothing. Jesus' death alone...if He was still in the tomb, we're still sinners...our faith and preaching would be in vain...

You deny the very death of Christ with all of its Saving Merit, the Resurrection is proof that Christ's Death saved from sin ! The scripture says believers were saved/Healed by His Stripes 1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Yet you deny it by saying:

We were/are not saved by His death

That statement is a Lie !

 

[DHK]

DHK

real Christians have always believed in a salvation that is all of grace, THAT WORKS... He does not live just like his unsaved neighbor.

Someone once wisely said:
"The greatest problem (Baptist) churches face today is: the moral outsider and the immoral insider."
Your statement is not true. There is hardly a Baptist in western churches today that would go and live a sacrificial life like Mother Theresa did. Yet we know she was not saved.
There are many outstanding moral individuals who live excellent lives, make far better examples in their daily living than most Baptist church members and yet are not saved. I don't see a lot of Baptist Christians who act like the Apostle Paul, witnessing at every opportunity. In fact most are silent, and speak of Christ only when they go to church. To their neighbors they might talk about the weather and politics, or other shared interests--rarely about Christ.

There are many "good" people in this world, with a far better reputation in the community than the average church member. They may not be "good" in their standing with God. But their "works" outweigh the works of the average church member.

In comparison then, what you say is false. By their works alone you cannot tell the difference. Many of the people in your own church may be playing the part of the hypocrite and you don't know if they are really saved or not.

 

[DHK]

DHK

Your false teaching has taken it's toll on you.I quoted directly from scripture to answer your challenge...and here is your response;

My answer back to you was scripture:
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
2Pe 1:11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
--Please don't call the scripture false teaching.

As I have directly quoted the Apostle Peter word for word and the instruction he gives to elect sheep....you are questioning the Apostle peter himself as to if he believed in salvation by works...very foolish indeed!

Paul was writing to believers. Notice the word "brothers."
He was writing about the Christian walk. I was asking how you know you are saved, one of the elect. You answered by quoting this Scripture. Thus your answer is: "I know I am one of the elect because I do these works.
You have admitted that your salvation is based on works instead of the grace of God.
So explain.
How do you know you are one of the elect? By your works? Really?
As I said, Mother Theresa had more works than you did!

To ask this question again shows you are clueless concerning the grace of God in salvation... Why do I say that?

No, I am not clueless. I know many people who try and practice these very things. You probably do to. They lurk in Baptist churches every where. I call them unsaved hypocrites--pretending to be Christians. They go through the motions. Perhaps they have you fooled, but they can't fool God. Nevertheless it still works that they do. Will their works get them to heaven Icon? What is it that gives them eternal life? Doing these things? Really?

You have just said that salvation leaves a person living no different from the unsaved....you said it right here;

You don't think there are pretenders?
You don't think there are hypocrites?
You don't think there are people that can deceive you?
You believe you have the same omniscience that God does?

How do you know you are one of the elect Icon?

So in your mind....the Holy Spirit makes no difference in the life of a saved person, he lives like his unsaved neighbor???...that is why you hold to the carnal christian heresy....

Paul addressed his brethren at Corinth "carnal" five times in five verses. If you deny that scripture, that is not my problem.
An unsaved neighbor can live a more "righteous" life than a "righteous" Christian. Yes, it happens many times. Have you ever heard of Jack Hyles, the pastor of the largest Baptist church in America in his time. Toward the end of his life he committed adultery with the secretary of his church. For such a man of God, it wasn't a very righteous act was it? Many of my neighbors would never think of doing such a thing. They are fully committed to their spouses.

Such false ideas lead to a comment by your eager disciple...The Steaver...

the blind are leading the blind...both fall in the ditch....

real Christians have always believed in a salvation that is all of grace, THAT WORKS... He does not live just like his unsaved neighbor.

I know I am "one of the elect."
Like Paul:
Act 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

Like Peter:
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
--I am ready to give you an answer.
I know why I am one of the elect. Do you?

 

[convicted1]

SBM,

If Christ be not risen, can sinners be saved?

I've answered your questions, please answer mine...

 

[Iconoclast]

Someone once wisely said:
"The greatest problem (Baptist) churches face today is: the moral outsider and the immoral insider."
Your statement is not true. There is hardly a Baptist in western churches today that would go and live a sacrificial life like Mother Theresa did. Yet we know she was not saved.
There are many outstanding moral individuals who live excellent lives, make far better examples in their daily living than most Baptist church members and yet are not saved. I don't see a lot of Baptist Christians who act like the Apostle Paul, witnessing at every opportunity. In fact most are silent, and speak of Christ only when they go to church. To their neighbors they might talk about the weather and politics, or other shared interests--rarely about Christ.

There are many "good" people in this world, with a far better reputation in the community than the average church member. They may not be "good" in their standing with God. But their "works" outweigh the works of the average church member.

In comparison then, what you say is false. By their works alone you cannot tell the difference. Many of the people in your own church may be playing the part of the hypocrite and you don't know if they are really saved or not.

The topic of hypocrisy is a valid topic of discussion....so this post is not the issue.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

My answer back to you was scripture:

You did quote 2 verses,vs 10,11 true..i quoted to you the whole section 3-11

2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
2Pe 1:11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

--Please don't call the scripture false teaching.

Not is where you have a problem telling the truth...I DID NOT call the scriptures false...what I said was false was your questioning the Apostles Peters view of the gospel....like for a little child I will make it large print so you can see what you said directly, without leaving off your foolish question and trying to turn it against me quite falsely as you have no trouble violating
the 9th commandment...

Here is the foolish question you asked me originally after I quote 2pet 1:3-12
you said;

-So you believe salvation is by works?

Do you see how foolish your question is? I quoted Peter directly and you asked .....so you believe in salvation by works???? I quoted Peter

I was asking how you know you are saved, one of the elect. You answered by quoting this Scripture. Thus your answer is: "I know I am one of the elect because I do these works.

Peter is not speaking of works...but graces that are to be diligently used and worked out in the life of a Christian..he is speaking of graces worked in us by God and we use them......You cannot understand what you are reading....

You have admitted that your salvation is based on works instead of the grace of God.

I have admitted no such thing and have told you not to act as my spokesmen, as you have no idea what you are talking about.....you speak for yourself...I will post for myself.

For you to say I admit something when I did not is a lie. You need to repent of this lie. Everyone can see it is a lie.

 

[DHK]

DHK

You did quote 2 verses,vs 10,11 true..i quoted to you the whole section 3-11

Not is where you have a problem telling the truth...I DID NOT call the scriptures false...what I said was false was your questioning the Apostles Peters view of the gospel....like for a little child I will make it large print so you can see what you said directly, without leaving off your foolish question and trying to turn it against me quite falsely as you have no trouble violating
the 9th commandment...

Here is the foolish question you asked me originally after I quote 2pet 1:3-12
you said;

Do you see how foolish your question is? I quoted Peter directly and you asked .....so you believe in salvation by works???? I quoted Peter

Peter is not speaking of works...but graces that are to be diligently used and worked out in the life of a Christian..he is speaking of graces worked in us by God and we use them......You cannot understand what you are reading....

Where does Peter say that he is not speaking of works but rather or "graces."
Grace is something freely received. It is not something done.
You have redefined the word. You have defined it as the RCC does, in the sense of a sacrament, in which case it would still be a work.

Again what does Peter say in this passage:
2Pe 1:3-11
(3) According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
(4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
(5) And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
(6) And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
(7) And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
(8) For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(9) But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
(10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
(11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
--What is given is not grace or graces. What is given are promises.
These are promises of God and they should abound in you.
Specifically, according to verse 3, they are "all things that pertain to life and godliness,"...which God has promised.
Now, God has ordered (vs.10) "Do these things."
If you say this is about salvation then your salvation is based on works and is a works based salvation.
However, the passage is not about salvation, is it?
You can't have it both ways. Which is it?

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Where does Peter say that he is not speaking of works but rather or "graces."
Grace is something freely received. It is not something done.
You have redefined the word. You have defined it as the RCC does, in the sense of a sacrament, in which case it would still be a work.

you are void of understanding

Again what does Peter say in this passage:
2Pe 1:3-11
(3) According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
(4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
(5) And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
(6) And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
(7) And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
(8) For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(9) But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
(10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
(11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
--

What is given is not grace or graces. What is given are promises.

you cannot grasp the word of God The seven virtues are not works...but graces

\
For anyone who wants to understand the passage othyer than DHK who has no interest in it...look here;

http://www.tonybartolucci.com/Sermons/2 peter exegesis/2 Peter 1.3-11.pdf

 

[DHK]

DHK

you are void of understanding

Perhaps your inability to answer my questions demonstrates the one who lacks in understanding. Please be careful in the caustic accusations you start throwing around. I don't care to get into a slug fest.

Again what does Peter say in this passage:
2Pe 1:3-11
(3) According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
(4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
(5) And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
(6) And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
(7) And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
(8) For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(9) But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
(10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
(11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
--
you cannot grasp the word of God The seven virtues are not works...but graces

I used the word "graces" when I was a Catholic.
I assure you that the word is not in that passage of Scripture. It is not talking about "graces."
Peter does speak about "doing these things." You have no answer for that.
"Doing" is works. When one "does" he works.

For anyone who wants to understand the passage othyer than DHK who has no interest in it...look here;

http://www.tonybartolucci.com/Sermons/2 peter exegesis/2 Peter 1.3-11.pdf

From your link:

A. A life of fruitfulness obviates apostasy (10)
B. A life of fruitfulness ensures eternal life (11)

You may agree; I certainly don't. It is grave error.

He is saying (one might conclude) that if one can outwardly display a life of fruitfulness (as some do) that ensures him eternal life.
That is heresy. It is teaching that eternal life comes by works, and not by grace through faith.

But this is the great error of the P in TULIP. It is salvation by works.
It is not eternal security because you have "the gift of salvation," but rather because you work to keep the salvation Christ gave. You must persevere or you lose it.
I believe in eternal security. But the Gift of God is eternal life. I won't lose eternal life because it is a gift that the Lord will not take away.

 

[savedbymercy]

SBM,

If Christ be not risen, can sinners be saved?

I've answered your questions, please answer mine...

You need to read my previous posts. You have denied the saving death of Christ. If Christ's Death did not accomplish and effect Salvation, Christ would not have risen, God's Justice would have kept Him in the Grave with the sins of the Elect not Propitiated for, Law and Justice not satisfied, however Christ's Resurrection did not satisfy God's Law and Justice, but gave proof that it had been satisfied. Now, you have denied the saving merit of Christ's Death, you stated, which is a lie this:

We were/are not saved by His death

Christ's Death did save those He died for, Peter wrote this to believers, By His Stripes you are Healed 1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

That word healed means:


I.to cure, heal


II.to make whole

A.to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation

His stripes / Death brings about or effects ones salvation and you deny it !

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Perhaps your inability to answer my questions demonstrates the one who lacks in understanding. Please be careful in the caustic accusations you start throwing around. I don't care to get into a slug fest.

I


I just point out what you post. it is error. What do you think I can call it?

Here it is spoken of in this sermon;

MacArthur writes:
"Because of their constant sins and failures as Christians, many find it hard not to think that even after salvation something is missing in the sanctification process. This faulty idea causes believers to seek "secnd blessings," "spirit baptisms," tongues, mystical experiences, special Psychological insights, private revelations, "self crucifixion," the "deeper life," heightened emotions, demon bindings, and combinations of various ones of all those in an attempt to attain what is supposedly missing from their spiritual resources. All manner of ignorance and Scripture twisting accompanies those foolish pursuits, which at their corrupt roots are failures to understand exactly what Peter says here.

Christians have received everything in the form of divine power necessary to equip them for sanctification–they have no lack at all. In view of that reality, the Lord holds all believers responsible to obey all the commands of Scripture.
Christians cannot claim that their sins and failures are the result of God's limited provision.
There is no temptation and no assault ot Satan and demons that is beyond their resources to overcome . . . To stress the extent of the divine power given each believer, Peter makes the amazing statement that saints have received from God everything pertaining to life and godliness. Syntacticallythe term everything is in the emphatic position because the Holy Spirit through Peter is stressing the extent of believers'self-sufficiency." [MacArthur, 27

I used the word "graces" when I was a Catholic.
I assure you that the word is not in that passage of Scripture. It is not talking about "graces."

Those who read with understanding know this....

"The logical relationship between vv. 3-4 and vv. 5-7 is crucial. Verses 5-7 summon the readers to a life of virtue, but vv. 3-4 remind us that a life of godliness is rooted in and dependent upon God's grace. Believers should live in a way that pleases God because Christ has given them everything they need for life and godliness. The indicative of God's gift precedes and undergirds the imperative that calls for human exertion. Peter did not lapse,therefore, into works righteousness here since he grounded his exhortations in God's merciful gifts." [Schreiner, 296-97]

Peter does speak about "doing these things." You have no answer for that.
"Doing" is works. When one "does" he works.

Christians do good works DHK. Good works are ordained for Christians


From your link:

You may agree; I certainly don't. It is grave error.

He is saying (one might conclude) that if one can outwardly display a life of fruitfulness (as some do) that ensures him eternal life.
That is heresy. It is teaching that eternal life comes by works, and not by grace through faith.

He is understanding what peter spoke of. You are unable to welcome it.

But this is the great error of the P in TULIP. It is salvation by works.
It is not eternal security because you have "the gift of salvation," but rather because you work to keep the salvation Christ gave. You must persevere or you lose it.

Real Christians will perservere;
http://vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc17.html

I believe in eternal security. But the Gift of God is eternal life. I won't lose eternal life because it is a gift that the Lord will not take away.

There is no eternal security for anyone who does not perservere by God's grace. Eternal security is a false counterfeit teaching , in the place of biblical perserverance.

 

[convicted1]

You need to read my previous posts. You have denied the saving death of Christ. If Christ's Death did not accomplish and effect Salvation, Christ would not have risen, God's Justice would have kept Him in the Grave with the sins of the Elect not Propitiated for, Law and Justice not satisfied, however Christ's Resurrection did not satisfy God's Law and Justice, but gave proof that it had been satisfied. Now, you have denied the saving merit of Christ's Death, you stated, which is a lie this:




Christ's Death did save those He died for, Peter wrote this to believers, By His Stripes you are Healed 1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

That word healed means:


I.to cure, heal


II.to make whole

A.to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation

His stripes / Death brings about or effects ones salvation and you deny it !

All I'm saying is it took all three...death, burial, AND resurrection to save us. It's like the fire triangle...w/o all three there's no fire. Without all three...death, burial, AND resurrection, we're all as lost as a ball in the weeds.

--But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.(1 Cor.15:10-20)

Everything Christ did would have profitted us nothing if Christ had not risen. It took His resurrection to fulfill the scriptures concerning His works in saving sinners...