Why Sunday can NOT be the Lord's Day

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Michael52:
Every day is the Lord's day.

Just pick 1 day out of every 7 and have everyone in your Church show up for worship.

We decided every Sunday would be real convenient.

We decided on Tuesdays.

But in Isaiah 66 - God said that "From Sabbath to Sabbath ALL MANKIND would come before Me to Worship".

In Gen 2:3 God decided on Sabbath.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[wopik]

It is abundantly clear that the Jerusalem Church never gave up Sabbath observance during the New Testament era.

On Paul's last visit to Jerusalem (about 58-60 A.D.), James and all the elders of the Church told Paul how the thousands of converted Jews "are all zealous ["ardent upholders," Moffatt] of the law" (Acts 21:20). In such an environment, it is inconceivable that the cherished and holy Sabbath would no longer be kept. The Sabbath is in the center of the law.


In his letter to the Church in Rome in this same time period, 55-59 A.D., Paul reminds them that the Gentiles "have been made partakers of their spiritual things" in a direct reference to the poor saints in the Jerusalem Church for whom Paul was asking physical contributions (Rom. 15:26-27).

One cannot imagine that "partaking of their spiritual things" would not include worship on the Sabbath, since it was fully revered by the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem and constituted a significant part of their spiritual lives.

 

[wopik]

The Sabbath, in fact, shall be observed following the return of Christ, when the fullness of the New Covenant shall spread over all the earth (Is. 66:23).

 

[wopik]

It's amazing that we Christians are so disconnected with our "roots" which are deep within Judaism and especially ties in with the faith of one who wasn't a Jew, but came out of the Ur of the Chaldeas and he sought a builder and maker of a city of God and his name is Abraham the father of many nations.

 

[superdave]

In his letter to the Church in Rome in this same time period, 55-59 A.D., Paul reminds them that the Gentiles "have been made partakers of their spiritual things" in a direct reference to the poor saints in the Jerusalem Church for whom Paul was asking physical contributions (Rom. 15:26-27).

One cannot imagine that "partaking of their spiritual things" would not include worship on the Sabbath, since it was fully revered by the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem and constituted a significant part of their spiritual lives.

Now thats a stretch.

Paul's teaching is pretty clear about the fulfillment of the Law in Christ. And the breaking of its hold on our lives. We do not need to use the heritage of our Jewish spiritual anscestors to pick and choose what laws we will and will not follow. And Paul is pretty tough in several books on those who would add law keeping to our Faith. Here is merely one example from Colossians

Freedom From Human Regulations Through Life With Christ

6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[2] God made you[3] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[4]
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

 

[wopik]

the Gospel writers - though they were writing decades after the resurrection - still referred to the seventh day of the week as THE SABBATH.


The first day of the week is still referred to as just "the first day of the week".

 

[tamborine lady]

Amen Wopik!!

Peace,

Tam

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by superdave:

Paul's teaching is pretty clear about the fulfillment of the Law in Christ.

There is no question that Christ perfectly fulfilled the LAW of Lev 19:18 telling mankind that we must love our neighbors as ourselves.

He also perfectly fulfilled the law of Deut 6:5 telling mankind to Love God with all of our heart.

But we do NOT go around telling people - "Don't worry about Love for God and Love for your Neighbor - that has all been fulfilled so you don't have to consider it as someting for you to obey. Just ignore it.".

If you DO have preacher telling you to ignore it - tell me more about that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

These Sunday vs. Sabbath arguments are like the TV soapies - one may miss out on several episodes yet when start viewing again, won't miss anything missed out on.
Nevertheless, the reason for this is grave, since both debatees refuse to see the Gospel-reason for God's Sabbath Day. The Sundaydarians stand firm on their sole reason for observing Sunday - which they say was the resurrection of Jesus from the dead "on the First Day of the week" -'Sunday'. The Sabbatharians REFUSE the fact of Jesus' resurrection from the dead "In Sabbath's fulness" -Mt.28:1- for observing the Sabbath.
The Sundaydarians keep on saying the Law of God is dead being crucified with and in Christ; the Sabbatharians insist the Law of God is dead being not crucified with and in Christ - both forgetting the Law rose from the dead again The Eternally Living Word of God, Christ Victor.
Paul however declares: Christ triumphing IN IT - that is, Christ in His death and resurrection triumphing - THEREFORE do not YOU (o Body of Christ's OWN) let anybody (of the world so big) condemn you because of your feasting ("eating and drinking" of Christ) OF Feast, whether of month's, or, of weeks ("Sabbaths'") (occurrence)!"
So (for thinkers like Bob Ryan to take notice of), the OT patriarchs could look back to the creation-event, and rejoice in the works of God completed keeping the Sabbath Seventh Day; and the Jews could look back to the Exodus-event and rejoice in the works of God being completed keeping the Sabbath Seventh Day; and the Christian Church can AND WILL look back to "ALL the works of God being perfected on the Seventh Day" through the Son in these last days in the Christ-event of resurrection from the dead, "Victor"!
Then for those who still could think of the First day of the week, Just how do you manage?
Gerhard
Gerhard

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

quote:
Originally posted by Michael52:
Every day is the Lord's day.EQ

Dear Sir, when making such a sweeping statement, please be courteous enough to supply your authority, it might be the Word of God? Then why not give us it?
Now know for certain, "every day" is NOT "the Lord's day"! The very name of it, excludes "The Lod's Day" from being any day or any of every day, or every day. I think it was Wopik who somewhere used the word "stupidity". I think the word applies here better than on any day other than the Lord's.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Bob Ryan wrote,
Q:There is no question that Christ perfectly fulfilled the LAW of Lev 19:18 telling mankind that we must love our neighbors as ourselves.EQ

Dear friend - I don't hesitate to say, "in Christ" - just read what you've written! What you here say, is the Gospel and the whole Gospel, because what you here tell us is that Jesus died for our sin and rose again for our justification. With saying that, you say indeed Christ died the Law for us, and rose again the Law for us. If not, there's no possibility He "perfectly fulfilled the LAW of Lev 19:18".
I know the difficulty of understanding this mystery - I experienced it myself. But just realise Christ freed us to live the slaves of Him.
That is to be His Church, and that is, to feast His Sabbaths. I speak of realities - not of vagueness. His redemption is real; His Freed are real - in fact they are His Realty on earth; His Abode and Body. From this reality follows the Christian existentiality of the Day of Worship-Rest of and by the "Body that is of Christ's (Elect)".
Understanding Colossians 2:16-17 is understanding the Christian Sabbath; its confirmation; the impossibility of Sunday being the Lord's Day.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Trotter:
Q. I think the church does exist with or without a Sunday or Sabbath gathering. We isolate our thoughts to this country or countries which allow gatherings. Many places around the globe do not and I am sure that they do not squabble over which day they are going to get together and do a bible study or sing some songs. They meet when they have opportunity.EQ

Bob Ryan:
Q. Just pick 1 day out of every 7 and have everyone in your Church show up for worship.
We decided every Sunday would be real convenient.
We decided on Tuesdays. Haha! EQ

So, "they do not squabble"? No, I cincerely believe they don't. The Church under persecution like the free Church, honestly practice what they belive is right. It may be they believe Sunday is right for the very right reason. It doesn't make right their (forgiven) error they take for granted the wrong day.
Fact remains, without Day of Worship, no Church! No actualisation, no existentiality, no historicity of the Body the Congregation of Christ's Members were it not for the Day of their Congregating and Worship. Whether free or persecuted, suffering or triumphant.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

As this pertains to Colossians 2:16-17, or rather, as Colossians 2:16-17 pertains to this: No Resurrection of Jesus, no Church of Jesus' Own; no Church of His, no Day of His, no Feast of Him and of His - no "Sabbaths' eating and drinking" of "you(rs)". Therfore, with no Body there's no shadow, but where there's no shadow, there is neither Body nor Head - no Light or Object reflected in the shadow. The shadow is as REAL as is the Body or, as is the Head, the casting LIGHT of the shadow.
So men may cavil over the shadow and make nought of it; but not God, nor Paul, nor the Word-Law of the Christian.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Replying to
superdave, posted December 05, quoting,
quote:
In his letter to the Church in Rome in this same time period, 55-59 A.D., Paul reminds them that the Gentiles "have been made partakers of their spiritual things" in a direct reference to the poor saints in the Jerusalem Church for whom Paul was asking physical contributions (Rom. 15:26-27). One cannot imagine that "partaking of their spiritual things" would not include worship on the Sabbath, since it was fully revered by the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem and constituted a significant part of their spiritual lives.
(ended quoting), replying,

Now thats a stretch.

Paul's teaching is pretty clear about the fulfillment of the Law in Christ. And the breaking of its hold on our lives. We do not need to use the heritage of our Jewish spiritual anscestors to pick and choose what laws we will and will not follow. And Paul is pretty tough in several books on those who would add law keeping to our Faith. Here is merely one example from Colossians ...

Gerhard saying to this:

Dear Superdave, you have not the minutest idea of what you're talking about. You actually confirm what your source says, that "One cannot imagine that "partaking of their spiritual things" would not include worship on the Sabbath, since it was fully revered by the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem and constituted a significant part of their spiritual lives."

Paul's teaching is pretty clear about the fulfillment ESTABLISHMENT of the Law in Christ. And the breaking of its hold on our lives, FOR A MAN IS UNDER THE LAW FOR AS LONG AS HE LIVES. We do not need to use the heritage of our Jewish spiritual anscestors to pick and choose what laws we will and will not follow - CHRIST ESTABLISHED AND IS THE LAW TO THE CHRISTIAN MAN. And Paul is pretty tough in several books on those who would add law keeping to our Faith - HOW TOUGH WOULD HE HAVE BEEN ON SUNDAY-WORSHIP FOR EXAMPLE, AS IF HE LABOURED FOR US IN VAIN, AND WOULD BE AFRAID WE ARE SEVERED FROM CHRIST. Here is merely one example from Colossians ... "THEREFORE - CHRIST HAVING "TRIUMPHED IN IT" HIS RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD - LET NNE CONDEMN YOU WITH REGARD TO YOUR (SPRIRITUALLY OF JESUS CHRIST) EATING AND DRINKING, OF FEAST WHETHER OF MONTH'S OR OF SABBATHS' OCCURRENCE, FOR THESE THINGS ARE A SPECTRE OF THINGS A-COMING, (IN FACT) OF THE BODY WHICH IS OF CHRIST'S (ELECT) - THE BODY THROUGH NOURISHMENT MINISTERED INCREASING WITH THE VITALITY OF GODS (POWER)."
Gerhard

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Answering Trotter November 23,
Q. Man cannot keep the Law. You would have to be perfect and sinless to do so...and there was only One of Him. By keeping parts of the law, you are guilty of all, and are shunning the finished work of Jesus Christ in preference to your own works.EQ

Man cannot BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD FOLLOW CHRIST. You would have to be perfect and sinless to do so...and there was only One of Him. "IN HIM" THOUGH, THE BELIEVER RECEIVED FULNESS AND PERFECTION THROUGH FORGIVENESS OF SINS. By keeping parts of the law, AND BREAKING THE REST, you are guilty of all, and are shunning the finished work of Jesus Christ in preference to your own works.
Gerhard

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Q. ... you are guilty of all, and are shunning the finished work of Jesus Christ in preference to your own works...EQ
... like through Sunday-keeping you are guilty of breaking the Fourth Commandment, and are shunning the finished work of Jesus Christ "ON THE SEVENTH DAY" - HB.4:4-5 - in preference to your own works OF SANCTIFYING THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK ON OWN AUTHORITY AND PRESUMPTIOUSNESS GREAT ENOUGH TO DESPISE THE WRITTEN CODE OF THE HOLY CRIPTURES, CHANGING TIMES AND LAW INTO MAN-PLEASING AND DRAGON-APPEASING RELIGION.
Gerhard

 

[BobRyan]

the Sabbatharians insist the Law of God is dead being not crucified with and in Christ - both forgetting the Law rose from the dead again The Eternally Living Word of God, Christ Victor.

I don't follow you here.

For Sabbatarians - once you obsere that the Law remains in full force (Rom 3:31, James 2, Rom 2:11-13, Eph 6:1-2) as God's Word to be obeyed AND as God's word defining sin and penalty (Rom 3:9-12, Romans 6, Romans 7) - then the Sabbath "remains" with it.

That ALONE would establish our obligation.

The fact that Christ LIVED in perfect obedience fulfilling the Law of Love and died to pay our DEBT "the Certificate of DEBT" (Col 2) and that in His LIFE He commanded us to "Keep His Commandments" (John 14) even God's PRE-CROSS commandments!! These are enough to confirm the reality of our need to obey God rather than rebel.

In Isaiah 66 we see ALL MANKIND coming before God from Sabbath to Sabbath to Worship before Him in the new earth. This the ultimate rest from sin and suffering - the ultimate unity with Christ.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ellen White? Who is Ellen White?
The Bible and the Bible only, please!
Some good old Calvinists perhaps, yes!, but Armenians or Antinomians or Unitarians or whatever other -ians's, they don't only bore; they anger!
Gerhard

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Hallo Bob,
Good to hear from you! May we both gain from our discussion.
You quoted me as saying,
"the Sabbatharians insist the Law of God is dead being not crucified with and in Christ - both forgetting the Law rose from the dead again The Eternally Living Word of God, Christ Victor",
then comment,

I don't follow you here.

Bob, just follow my words, and you'll follow all right! If not the Law with and in and through and as represented by Christ in Person had been crucified, it not with and in and through and as represented by Christ in Person afterwards could be the Law of God anymore. It was by this very Law that He died, and by this very Law that he rose again. It was by His own Will that He died, and by His own Will that He took up His life again.
I don't see the Stones of Ten Commandments on the tree though I behold before my eyes the Law of God in God!
Say Jesus never rose from the dead again, would there have been the Law still? Not at all! Say if not with and in through and as represented by Christ in Person the Law never went into oblivion through the very death of itself, would ever had been the Law that is God's? Then just as well say God's Word was not Christ, and Christ not God's Word. He is the Law of God in the last - and first - analysis. That's what I'm saying. "Christ is ALL in all!"

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

To follow through my reasoning above, employing your words:
Your words are,
Q. For Sabbatarians - once you obsere that the Law remains in full force ... as God's Word to be obeyed AND as God's word defining sin and penalty ... then the Sabbath "remains" with it.EQ

See now that once you HAVE CAUGHT A GLIMPSE OF JESUS, IN DYING AND RISING, YOU HAVE observed that THE LAW - AND THIS 'LAW' ONLY - remains in full force as God's LIVING Word IN PERSON to be obeyed AND as God's word - WORD WITH A CAPITAL LETTER - defining sin and penalty ... then the Sabbath "remains" with it. THAT IS WHAT COLOSSIANS 2:16-17 DECLARES, I HAVE LONG ARGUED WITH YOU BEFORE.
G