Why Sunday can NOT be the Lord's Day

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Q. That ALONE would establish our obligation.EQ

I think herewith yo have summarised the fundamental difference between your view and mine.
I say, no, THAT ALONE IS OF NO CONSEQUENCE WHATSOEVER ANY MORE BECAUSE CHRIST ALONE establishes our obligation. "The Law of sin" - that is, the Law that defines sin, - we are not under it any longer, says Paul - the Scriptures, the Law! How is it possible? By this greatest of wonders and divine power, that we are now under the Law of Grace - that is, the Law that forgives sin; under the Lordship of Jesus Christ King and Lord and Ruler. He is the RULE and STANDARD of our lives and conduct, while being the object of our adorning and worship. I could not anounce this of the Law on Stone but being an idolator of it.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Q. In Isaiah 66 we see ALL MANKIND coming before God from Sabbath to Sabbath to Worship before Him in the new earth. This the ultimate rest from sin and suffering - the ultimate unity with Christ.EQ

I believe Isaiah here speaks of the present, current, Gospel-era - "the New Earth". All we still await is seeing what we already believe and believe as and for real. The day we shall see the REALITY of this 'ultimate unity with Christ' I believe like I believe you do, will be at His second Advent when there will be the end of sin and mortalness. OF THIS THE SABBATH IS STILL THE SHADOW IN ESCHATOLOGICAL SENSE. Of this the Sabbath should SOON properly witness as when restored to its rightful sanctity and elected uniqueness. That day the Sunday worship of the Church must go! The Sabbath Day serves as messenger of the Lord before that great day.
God shall fulfill His purpose with it.

 

[wopik]

Gerhard Ebersoehn

By keeping parts of the law, AND BREAKING THE REST, you are guilty of all

so are we still supposed to stone adulterers to death?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by wopik:
Gerhard Ebersoehn
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />By keeping parts of the law, AND BREAKING THE REST, you are guilty of all

so are we still supposed to stone adulterers to death? </font>[/QUOTE]Dear Wopik,
our best keeping of God's good Law is sin - like filthy rags, in God's sight. How bad then to boast our transgression of it! Stop argueing about the Law of God; I say it is Christ WHO, is THE LAW of God - His WORD no different! He DIED, and He rose again, God's Holy. The Sabbath in Him and with Him. We have nothing to say about the First Day of the week which is kept by the Church in DISobedience and in TRANSgression of God's Holy Law - thus in rebellion against the Son. I repeat, Paul saw the Sabbath protruding from Christ's doing as the doing of His Body the Church. That is olossians 2:16-17; NOT that the Sabbath is no more valid for the People of God. Don't heap up the lies!

 

[BobRyan]

Gerhard - good to see you in such good form. However I have to admit - I still don't follow some of your arguments.

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
Say Jesus never rose from the dead again, would there have been the Law still? Not at all!

#1. That seems to be based on pure speculation.
#2. The fact that Jesus rose - is proof that the law's demands - the debt that was owed - was fully met. Had that sacrifice been insufficient to pay the debt - the law would stand but the sacrifice of the Law giver would have been judge less-than His own law demanded. It would not have destroyed the law - it would have destroyed grace and mercy.

(On the other hand - if the Law Giver had chosen to annul the law and forgiven without paying the debt His OWN law reuired - -then "and only then" would His own Laws be annulled - made void)

Say if not with and in through and as represented by Christ in Person the Law never went into oblivion through the very death of itself, would ever had been the Law that is God's? Then just as well say God's Word was not Christ, and Christ not God's Word. He is the Law of God in the last - and first - analysis. That's what I'm saying. "Christ is ALL in all!"

I think we agree -- sorta.

God's Law is nothing more than the revelation of who He is - a transcript of His character. And you seem to be saying "something" like that in your quote above.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by wopik:
Gerhard Ebersoehn
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />By keeping parts of the law, AND BREAKING THE REST, you are guilty of all

so are we still supposed to stone adulterers to death? </font>[/QUOTE]The idea behind that question is that either God had "a bad idea in the OT" but has since then thought better of it.

Or it is saying that there are two Gospels -- one in the OT where everyone was perfect (or else they got stoned) and then another one in the NT where forgiveness of sins is part of the Gospel.

Or it says that the civil laws (death penalties in this case) inforced as a national law - where the nation is a pure Theocracy are not just.

Notice that in Matt 5-6 the law of Christ demands that the victim turn the other cheek. This was never a civil law in Israel - it is a law of the individual and of the soul - not a national law that could be enforced.

You can't mix civil laws with the Gospel and run a nation by forgiving mass murderers each time they say "oops! sorry!".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I just say one thing - or try to say it, and that is, That Jesus Christ is God's Word. And God's Word is His Law - absolutely - there's nothing of the Law of God that is not the Word of God. Since Jesus conquered sin and death He is the ONLY Living Law of God the believer look at and confess: In Thee I see my sin; "Against Thee ONLY have I (ever) sinned!" When we sin against God's Law we sin against HIM - not against the Ten Commandments! There are an eternity of differences - shortages - between the Ten Commandments and the 'Revelation of God's character'. The Revelation of God's character and Will, is the Man Jesus Christ, our Lord and as our Lawgiver our Law to the fulness of God in HIM.
And so I could go on and on and on, and just say one thing: The Christian's Law is the Living Saviour of the soul, not its condemner though for the unbeliever HE is the only Condemner. Any question of how should I live or how should His Body the Church live, is answered by and through and in Himself - no longer by the Ten Commandments however wonderful it was and still is. Hence the Seventh Day Sabbath - for the Christian it comes from Christ - it started with Christ, and ends with Christ. In this regard the Christian and the Jew have NOTHING IN COMMON! The Jew today keeps a legalistic Sabbath Day; the Christian keeps a free and feasting, CHRISTIAN Sabbath Day. We find an example of this Sabbath Day in Colossians 2:16-17.

 

[wopik]

Luke and Paul wrote decades after the resurrection, and "the first day of the week" is still referred to as nothing more than just "the first day of the week".


Decades after the resurrection, Luke and Paul still refer to the seventh day as "the Sabbath".

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
I just say one thing - or try to say it, and that is, That Jesus Christ is God's Word. And God's Word is His Law - absolutely - there's nothing of the Law of God that is not the Word of God. Since Jesus conquered sin and death He is the ONLY Living Law of God the believer look at and confess:

Jesus is the "Word made flesh" there is no point in dividing the written Word of God "out" as if there is some war going on between Christ as the "Word mad flesh" and scripture as "The written Word of God".

They are in perfect harmony with each other. Christ authored the Word of God - the WRITTEN Word of God through the Holy Spirit as the NT text says.

The apostolic word was VALIDATED via that written Word even AFTER the cross as Acts 17:11 shows us. There we see the OT written word used to test/validate/judge/certify the apostolic teaching.

There are an eternity of differences - shortages - between the Ten Commandments and the 'Revelation of God's character'.

The "Game" of pitting God against His Word is silly and pointless. If you honor God then you can not do anything other than honor His spoken and written word.

Each time you think you finally find conflict between them - you are mistaken, your judgment is in error - but the WORD REMAINS "living and active and sharper than a two-edged sword" Heb 4.

As Christ said "I will not judge you on that day but My WORD will judge you".

For the Christian who actually reads the Gospels - starting John 1 - it STARTS with Christ the Creator in Genesis - at creation - it STARTS with the OT, IT STARTS with the acts of Christ IN the OT as our Creator -- and the Gospel message CONTINUES through the end - from "Genesis to maps".

In this regard the Christian and the Jew have NOTHING IN COMMON! The Jew today keeps a legalistic Sabbath Day;

The Jew today that does not accept Christ the Creator may indeed choose not to commit adultery - but that does not mean that adultery would be a "good thing" if only he were a Christian. In the same way Sabbath keeping is not his "error" nor would "Sabbath breaking" be his reward once accepting Christ.

The "problem" for the Jew is NOT in his failure to commit enough adultery - the problem is in rejecting Christ the Creator who IS the Messiah of the OT - who IS the Creator of the OT who IS the God of Abrham Isaac and Jacob!

How easy can this be??

I agree with your premise that only IN Christ is there any value in obedience to the written Word of God. I do not believe that this truth is benefited by reducing the value and worth of that written Word.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[wopik]

You can't find sunday replacing the Sabbath in the NT. And why should it. It was not the law that changed.

The New Covenant does not abolish the law, it just changes the LOCUS OF CONTROL.

The law moves from "the tables of stone", to "the fleshly tables of the heart" --- from an external authority to an internal authority.

The writer of Psalms understood this, very early on:

119:10
With my whole heart I have sought You; Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments!

119:11
Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You!

************************************************

It was always to be this way:

Deut.
6:6
And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart.


6:7
You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up.

 

[BobRyan]

Indeed - Deut 6:6 IS proclaiming the very heart of the new birth - of the changed heart - of the New Covenant.

This is why there is only REALLY ONE Gospel.

This is why Heb 4:1 can claim "The Gospel was preached to US JUST as it was to them also" -

This is why Gal 3 can claim that THE Gospel was preached to Abrham while insisting in Gal 1 that there is "only ONE" Gospel.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Paul of Eugene]

The Law of God given from Sinaii to Moses was given to a covenant people, the people of Israel, and is binding on them as covenant people. Most of us today are now of those covenant people, that is, we are not Jews, we are Gentiles. Therefore, we are not bound by the Old Covenant laws of God. We do not have to be circomcised; we do not have to obey dietary restrictions as to what is clean and what is unclean; we do not have to be bound to a particular day of worship among the seven.

We have formed a tradition of meeting, as the disciples did, on the first day of the week, and it is fine for us to do that, as long as we realize we are not under a law for doing that.

I remember in former years there was a lot of concern about what was "proper" and "not proper" to do on the Sabbath. For example, some people worried about eating out for dinner after church on Sunday, causing others thereby to have to work for a living on the Lord's day. That is all foolishness, ranking right up there with the prohibition against mixed bathing (meaning we can't have a swimming pool party with both guys and gals at the same swimming pool!)

Having said that, there is NOTHING WRONG with hallowing the Jewish Sabbath as a recognition of their place in God's history of salvation for all mankind.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
...Having said that, there is NOTHING WRONG with hallowing the Jewish Sabbath as a recognition of their place in God's history of salvation for all mankind.

Absolutely everything is wrong with that - it is sheer legalism. Legalism is to offer to God what He does not demand of us. And God only demands what He has given.
God gave His Church the Seventh Day Sabbath to remember because of Jesus Christ and for to worship Him in the very perfection and finishing of all His works in Him in raising Him from the dead. God let it happen and gave His Sabbath's to His Church for the worship of Him "In the Sabbath's fulness" Mt28:1, for that end, and to fulfil the WORD He had "spoken thus concerning" it (Hb.4:4-5). The Sabbath is Christian, or it is legalism.
Sunday, dear friend, is idolatry.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quote:We have formed a tradition of meeting, as the disciples did, on the first day of the week, and it is fine for us to do that, as long as we realize we are not under a law for doing that.QE
...as the disciples did ...
Sunday, dear friend, I said, is idolatry. Here is how it is practiced as idolatry, making lies of God's Word the Scriptures.
The disciples NEVER formed a tradition of meeting on the First Day - the NT never once mentions that they assembled for worship of the Lord ever once on the First Day of the week. You see, the translators put their own lie in there, and what you read in their 'translation' is not what the Text says! They see fit to manhandle and disfigure the Text IN ORDER TO EXCUSE SUNDAY. They are liars with no respect for the Word of God, yet they are o so holy Sunday observers. That is idolatry - stark, raw, wilful, idolatry.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quote:
Each time you think you finally find conflict between them - you are mistaken, your judgment is in error - but the WORD REMAINS "living and active and sharper than a two-edged sword" Heb 4. EQ
It is not I who find conflict, but you; it is not I who pit God and His Law against one another; it is you. Because you give the glory owed Christ and the dispensation of Grace, to the dispensation that used to have a glory that was like nothing in comparison with the glory of God in the face of Jesus.
If I said that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday you could accuse me like you do here. But I don't; I say the Sabbath was changed from the old Sabbath by all the old reasons which the Old Testament and the Old Law gave for it, into the new and Christian Sabbath DAY because of Jesus Christ and NOTHING ELSE! It is still the Seventh Day of the week, but quite a different Sabbath! Because it is a different LAW now: where it used to be "the Law of Commandments in Ordinances" - that had been "done away with" because it had become USELESS beacause the LAW that is not only the Law OF God, but that is GOD Himself, has now made the old Law OBSOLETE. The Old Law's ONLY glory honour and virtue NOW, is to make way for the KING! It never had a greater honour, a more virtues or holier virtue, a more divine glory - it never had another glory, honour or virtue whatsoever, because Christ is and ever had been its only and very END.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ the Creator Gave Sabbath its meaning in Gen 2:3 and Exodus 20:8-11 when He defined it as sanctified - set apart and a memorial of the act of infinite God in creating mankind. In the Gospels Christ the Creator CONTINUES as the Creator (John 1:1-5) and again moves forward from that "basis" that foundational truth -- never to be erased or "edited".

It is because Christ is LORD AND Savior that the NT authors were able to promote such high worship and praise of God. There was never a conflict between Christ as LORD vs Christ as Savior in OT or in NT.

The SEVENTH-day aspect is purely relate to Christ as LORD. The fact that WE are to keep it HOLY - can only be accomplish after the fall of Adam ( OT or NT) -- by being saved and IN CHRIST. That fact ALSO does NOT change between the OT and the NT. The only time it changed is PRE-FALL (where they were already sinless) and post-fall.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
The Law of God given from Sinaii to Moses was given to a covenant people, the people of Israel, and is binding on them as covenant people. Most of us today are now of those covenant people, that is, we are not Jews, we are Gentiles.

True enough -- but since Adam was NOT a Jew -- when the Sabbath was given to him (Gen 2:3) and since ALL MANKIND will not be Jews yet will keep Sabbath (Isaiah 66) and since Christ said that "Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" (Mark 2:27) and since God EXPLICITLY identified NON-JEWS as blessed for keeping Sabbath in the OT (Isaiah 58) it is clear the Sabbath WAS and WILL be and Is applicable to non-Jews from its very start and right through to the New Earth.

We do not have to be circomcised;

You do not see circumcision given to anyone but Abraham and his descendants NOR do you see Christ say "Circumcision was made for mankind" NOR do you see God saying that in the New earth all mankind will be Circumcised NOR do you see...

Your apple-and-oranges equivocation is a form of logical fallacy that is well recognized.

we do not have to obey dietary restrictions as to what is clean and what is unclean;

Actually the Lev 11 Law of Christ the Creator regarding "what is edible" among ALL flesh - has never been revoked. That means that eating rats, cats, dogs and bats is "still off limits". Many people had hoped that Christ died so that we could eat rat-sandwiches - but as it turns out that is not why Christ died at all.

We have formed a tradition of meeting, as the disciples did, on the first day of the week, and it is fine for us to do that, as long as we realize we are not under a law for doing that.

You are correct. This is a man-made tradition and could just as easily have been Tuesday or Wednesday.

In Mark 7 Christ speaks to the point of abolishing a command of God by the traditions of man in a pre-cross statement that is applicable to all followers of Christ.

It is instructive.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[tamborine lady]

I must have missed it! Where is the scripture in the bible that said the disciples met on the first day the week??



Tam

 

[BobRyan]

Certainly the disciples "huddled in fear on the first day" on that first resurrection Sunday. We can all agree to that one.

And there was one time where a farewell meeting was called on week-day-1 to say goodbye to Paul.

Odd that they never called it "the Lord's day" saying "Weekday-1 is the Lord's Day" the way that God said "the 7th day is the Sabbath". You would think that if these Jewish Christians were INTRODUCING week-day-1 as the new LORD's day they would say so.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Colossians 2:18-19a
Verse 18:
“Allow no one who wishes judgement against you, (who) with affected humbleness and angelic piety – intruding into the things he has seen (among you) – without cause is puffed up by his fleshly mind, 18. not deriving his authority from the Head from Whom all the Body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, becomes great with the increase of God.”

Verse 18 is the continuation of Paul’s admonition of verse 16,
Verse 16:
“Do not you let anyone judge / condemn you in eating and drinking, in fact in regard to (eating and drinking) of feast – whether of month’s, or of Sabbaths’ (– weekly occurrence –)
17. which things are (but) a shadow (still) of things a-coming, the body indeed of Christ’s (Own).”

The admonition comes in two parts, first the positive, affirming ‘advice’ or ‘solace’ (2:2) of verse 16, which then after its explanation in verse 17 is placed in contrast with the negative rebuff of verse 18 to 19a.
(The division of verses between 18 and 19 unfortunately came not as neatly as between verses 16 and 17.)

Paul’s warning speaks for itself, and clearly presupposes different entities, the Church and the world, in conflict.
The Church derives its power and authority, vitality and growth, from the Head which is Christ (2:10, 1:18), the hope of glory (1:27). The world, haughty in its might and rule of deceit and pretence, seeks to spoil (destroy) the Church (2:8).
The Church is free and its members freemen of Christ; the world is captive of religious verbosity and excessiveness.
The Church celebrates its rest obtained in Christ; the world boasts its own wisdom and will-worship.
The world very religiously revels in self-inflicted misery; the Church celebrates by faith in love, Sabbaths feasting the triumph of God in Christ.
The world is empty, trying to fill the void with pride; the Church with joy and thankfulness receives of the fullness of God in Him.

Now hear Paul explain this contrast writing to the Colossian Believers, promising them to act as their representative, their paraklehtos, their advocate at law on earth, the while Jesus Christ is seated Advocate of all believers at the right hand of the power and authority of God in heaven:

“Do not you let anyone judge / condemn you in eating and drinking, in fact in regard to (your eating and drinking) of feast – whether of month’s, or of Sabbaths’ (– weekly occurrence –)
17. which things are (but) a shadow of things still a-coming, the body indeed of Christ’s (Own). Allow no one who wishes judgement against you, (who) with affected humbleness and angelic piety – intruding into the things he has seen (among you) – without cause is puffed up by his fleshly mind, 18. not deriving his authority from the Head from Whom all the Body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, becomes great with the increase of God.”

Now is that the abrogation of the Sabbath, or its confirmation once for ever Christian?
Its confirmation once for ever not in these verses here, but in the very event of Jesus Christ dying and rising from the dead, exalted and glorified, Lord of God’s Finishing of All His Works, Son of Man Lord of the Sabbath.
Hence the Sabbath Day of Christian Worship of God the Creator Redeemer.
And that is Why Sunday can not be the Lord’s Day!