Why the Blindness?

[Allan]

Hello James,

I understand your point. But this holds ture with your side as well. Now I have a answer for you on this, but I will hold off for now and share later. I'll just say in short...The only system where this works is Calvinism. So...Back to your thought. If they reject Christ and will never believe, why blind them?

If we say salvation is like going to a ball game you may see my point. From the free-will side, all of mankind have a ticket to go to the game. All men at some point know of the game. If man says he will not go to the game, at that point man does not know of the game any more. You see my point? If they reject the truth, they are then blinded from the truth, which means they do not know the truth. This would mean God makes it so that they forget what they know about the truth, so they could reject what they learned about the truth.

I'm not going to go chasing rabbits with you James, If you have an answer then give it, THEN you can begin explaining it. Umm...your opinion of Calvinism is dualy noted though since it is only an opinion it can rest there as I believe (and so do the others who don't hold to Calvinism) that the Non-Cal position works quiet well with the scriptures.

If they reject Christ why blind them... Judgment. I have already give scriptures to prove this earlier in the OP. Those who will not recieve the truth are kept from seeing it again. God doesn't say how many times a person must hear before it happens but what we do know is that AFTER they reject then at some point (either immediate or late) God will blind them that they may continue believing the lie they rejected the truth for.

No James, they don't 'forget' they deny its truth! Again it is not that they do not KNOW truth for they many an ungodly man uses the scriptures to try to refute the Truth we hold from those same scriptures. They know it intellectually but not spiritually because they have rejected it. This only shows the things of God are foolishness to them who do not BELEIVE.

I guess we must say what blindness is 1st before we can get to the point.

No James, Blindness comes AFTER a person has rejected the truth. Refer back to my previous posts.

I'm sure all will agree that salvation will fix this spiritually blindness.

No sir, again incorrect. They were blinded after they rejected the truth and from thence could come again to a knowledge of truth after God had blinded them. Now we do know that Satan tries to blind people by darkening their understanding so it is harder to see the light of truth. But He still can not keep the light from shining and revealing truth.

Those that do not agree with Calvinist views on this say that Calvinism takes the "dead" idea to far. They say the fall means all men will die someday. They say dead does not mean unable to respond. Does dead mean dead?

This has very little bearing on this OP and one I will only deal with in part because this is not about "what does dead mean".

I will say this though - A person who can accept or reject the truth of God is not dead in its literal sense but is shown forth as an allegory not a simile or literal.

Rejection of a idea is easy. Sharing the right view is a bit harder. I would like to know how a non-Cal views spiritually blindness. If God wanted state the very worst state a man could be spiritually, what one word would He use? It is said that Calvinist take this idea to far. Dead is not that bad. Can a person be worst then dead? Name just one level below dead. What one word would God use if He meant dead spiritually as seen by Calvinist?

This has nothing to do with blindness but the absense of God in a persons life of which scripture state man is dead BECAUSE he is without God who is life. It is allegorical and thereby remaining consistent with all of the scriptures that speak of the dead spirit of man doing something.

1) What is spiritually blindness?
2) Is it the same as spiritually dead?
3) Who is spiritually blind?

1. it is Gods judgment upon unbeleif. John 12 (2 thes 2:10-13) Post #3
2. No because the meaning of being spiritually dead is one who does not have God (Life) John 10:10, I John 5:11
3. Those who have rejected the truth God has revealed to them (2 Thes 2:10-13)

God can and does intervene in all ways. This is why I am Calvinist

Then you must consider being a Non-Calvinist as well for we hold this same to be true.

 

[Allan]

we are making things more complicated than it really is.

He has hidden the truth from they wise and learned and revealed the truth to little children.

He blinds the wise and open the hearts of those who come to Jesus as a child.

That is not what scripture says about blinding.
Your reference to coming to Christ as little children necessitates that anyone CAN come (not blinded) but those who think they are greater and a wiser man they have already rejected the truth given. OTHERWISE they would not consider themselves wise in their own eyes

 

[reformedbeliever]

Seems to me they are not always blinded.

2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

John, chapter 1
9: That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10: He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11: He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Titus. 2:


"11": For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

"12": Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

"13": Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

"14": Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Surely you see what I'm saying even if Allan does not Bro. Bob. You are the one who keeps pointing out that God is present in all time and outside time. It is God's perfect knowledge that has blinded men. If He used satan to blind them, what is the difference? This blinding was done in eternity past, present, and future.

 

[psalms109:31]

blindness

That is not what scripture says about blinding.
Your reference to coming to Christ as little children necessitates that anyone CAN come (not blinded) but those who think they are greater and a wiser man they have already rejected the truth given. OTHERWISE they would not consider themselves wise in their own eyes

Yes, that was why God blinded them was they didn't come to Jesus as little children, but as wise in thier own eyes.

 

[Allan]

Ok, It sounded like you were saying they were God blinded them because they were wise - ergo - they were blinded due to being wise not rejecting.

 

[Brother Bob]

Surely you see what I'm saying even if Allan does not Bro. Bob. You are the one who keeps pointing out that God is present in all time and outside time. It is God's perfect knowledge that has blinded men. If He used satan to blind them, what is the difference? This blinding was done in eternity past, present, and future.

Reformed;
I certainly agree that God indeed has blinded some for different reasons. I think he blinded those so Elias could be tried by faith to show him God would provide.
I think he blinded Pharoah to show His power and to fulfill His promise to deliver Israel out of bondage.
I think they none were blinded their entire life though, like Judas who betrayed the Lord. He was a devil from the beginning but I don't know the beginning of what? I admit, God knows all but there are some things we surmise but really see darkly now but thanks to God, one day we will see Him face to face.

Tell you what, we will ask Him together, deal???

 

[reformedbeliever]

Reformed;
I certainly agree that God indeed has blinded some for different reasons. I think he blinded those so Elias could be tried by faith to show him God would provide.
I think he blinded Pharoah to show His power and to fulfill His promise to deliver Israel out of bondage.
I think they none were blinded their entire life though, like Judas who betrayed the Lord. He was a devil from the beginning but I don't know the beginning of what? I admit, God knows all but there are some things we surmise but really see darkly now but thanks to God, one day we will see Him face to face.

Tell you what, we will ask Him together, deal???

Deal brother! I look forward to it.

I understand that they were in fact blinded in time in those circumstances. When I said that they were blinded in God's perfect knowledge before He ever created the world.... that was in response to J.D. question to Calvinist, about why God would blind those who could not see spiritually already.

I hope that makes sense.....lol Grace and peace

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Allan,

I'm not going to go chasing rabbits with you James, If you have an answer then give it, THEN you can begin explaining it.

No rabbits to chase on this side. Just trying to understand your doctrine. When I understand, your views, I can better address you.

If they reject Christ why blind them... Judgment.

I'm trying to find out a few things about your doctrine.
Blind to what?

2nd...being that you do not think man is blind before salvation, and is not dead spiritually where dead means.."unable to respond", just what kind of state is man in spiritually before salvation. I'll give you a hint as to what I believe, for I have Bible support. He is DEAD, which means DEAD as in not able to respond.

I have already give scriptures to prove this earlier in the OP.

You have yet to say what men are blind to. What can they no longer see?

No James, Blindness comes AFTER a person has rejected the truth. Refer back to my previous posts.

I have read your post. This is why I ask you now for info.

Your saying that before salvation man can see spiritually. After they reject the truth, they are blind. Blind to what? What does blindness mean to you?

2nd the other side of blind, is sight. Why can man see spiritually the truth before they reject it, after they reject it can they no longer see the truth? Or do you feel the blinding does nothing to their understanding.

No sir, again incorrect. They were blinded after they rejected the truth and from thence could come again to a knowledge of truth after God had blinded them.

Do you know what CMYK stand for? Its a well known acromym in the art field. This is why you are wrong.

This has very little bearing on this OP and one I will only deal with in part because this is not about "what does dead mean".

Yes, ..there is no need to deal with it if you feel it is not one and the same.

I will say this though - A person who can accept or reject the truth of God is not dead in its literal sense but is shown forth as an allegory not a simile or literal.

passage please.

1. it is Gods judgment upon unbeleif. John 12 (2 thes 2:10-13) Post #3

read post 3...it is wrong.

2. No because the meaning of being spiritually dead is one who does not have God (Life) John 10:10, I John 5:11
3. Those who have rejected the truth God has revealed to them (2 Thes 2:10-13)

we shall see.



In Christ..James

 

[J.D.]

I for one will endorse the idea that "blind" and "dead", spiritually speaking, convey the same meaning - "unable to respond".

 

[J.D.]

Hey, what happened to answering my posts J.D. (how come there are no pouting smily faces - it's a ligit emotion)

**pitching a fit in the corner for being left out**

I'm just being silly :laugh:

:thumbs:

Give me some time, "silly", I'll get back around to it eventually.

Right now I'm enjoying just sitting back and reading the posts.

Like I predicted, the eggs have been scrambled.

I'm feeling a little guilty, actually. It's been well known for a long time that freewill theology has NO VIABLE EXPLANATION for God's purpose in "blinding" people.

Nah nah nah nah nah!

But the thing about smiley's pouting went over my head.

 

[psalms109:31]

Simple solution

It is a simple solution why He blind men and hides the truth from them, because when we come to Jesus we must come totally depending on Him, not wise in our own eyes. God had to put a torn in the side to humble him. He was blinded spiritual thought He was doing the will of God, by killing Christain for comming to Jesus. God had to blind him physically to make him see spiritually, but still had to keep a thorn in his side to keep him humbled

Remember Jesus came inyto His own and His own received Him not.

 

[Jarthur001]

It is a simple solution why He blind men and hides the truth from them, because when we come to Jesus we must come totally depending on Him, not wise in our own eyes. God had to put a torn in the side to humble him. He was blinded spiritual thought He was doing the will of God, by killing Christain for comming to Jesus. God had to blind him physically to make him see spiritually, but still had to keep a thorn in his side to keep him humbled

Remember Jesus came inyto His own and His own received Him not.

Sorry, but I do not follow you at all on this. I guess you are talking about Paul above. (torn in side) Below is the verses Allan posted....

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2Th 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

You are talking about God blinding believers. This passage is saying the non-believers are blind. Also it says the believers are not blind. but chosen TO salvation, not chosen because we believe. So I can see what you posted above applies to anything.

 

[LeBuick]

I have not read the complete thread yet but I did want to add this for the original post. You have to keep reading.

John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

If your position is correct, why would some of the Chief Rulers believe on Christ? Now part "B" explaines why they would not confess "because of the Pharisees they did not confess him". There has to be more to the story if I am willing to go to hell because of another man's views...

I will read the thread before giving my views but I wanted to point this out to everyone.

 

[psalms109:31]

Blindness

I have no problem with God blinding men or hiding the truth from them, but the answer is pretty simple.

God hides the truth from the wise and learned and reveals the truth to litttle children.

When we come to Jesus we must come to Him as a child.

Jesus came into His own and His own received Him not.

We can't come to Jesus to teach Him or trick Him, but as a child. They were looking for ways to seize Jesus not to learn from Him.

God blinds know it all's and open the eyes of those who come to Jesus as a child.

Jesus was bringing hope to the world that they had the key to knowledge. They they selves have not entered and were hindereing those who were trying to enter.

Some of us need thorns in our sides to humble us.

As saul we are murdering those who are trying to enter and it us who limit the world that Jesus said that God loved to just the elect are the one's who have been blinded by God. That God does love the world, but only whosoever believes in Jesus shall be saved

That God truely does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the trust just as the word of God say's

Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

 

[reformedbeliever]

I have not read the complete thread yet but I did want to add this for the original post. You have to keep reading.

John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

If your position is correct, why would some of the Chief Rulers believe on Christ? Now part "B" explaines why they would not confess "because of the Pharisees they did not confess him". There has to be more to the story if I am willing to go to hell because of another man's views...

I will read the thread before giving my views but I wanted to point this out to everyone.

They may have believed, but because of spiritual blindness (inability to have faith) they could not have faith. Many believe, but lack faith. Even demons know who He is, but have no faith in who He is. They are still blind even though they see who He is.

 

[LeBuick]

They may have believed, but because of spiritual blindness (inability to have faith) they could not have faith. Many believe, but lack faith. Even demons know who He is, but have no faith in who He is. They are still blind even though they see who He is.

No, no... Read the verse.

John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

it clearly explains they did not confess for fear of being kicked out the synagogue. John was very clear toward why the Chief rulers didn't want to admit they believe on Christ. Don't forget the one who came by night.

EDIT*** And don't forget the book of Hebrews was specifically written to believing Jews. I really believe we are taking Isaiah words out of context or no Jew would believe. Not even Paul or the other disciples. They were all Jews.

 

[MB]

Hi James;
did you mean to address this to me or JD?

Hello MB


Lets see if I understand you right. You feel that man is not dead spirtual, but when A person rejects Christ and say No way God..never never never!! And when man will not believe in Christ and says that he will never every believe, it is at this point that God blinds him? Why? What is the meaning of the blindness?

I never said man isn't dead spiritually. Being dead spiritually means that man in his natural state is no long communning with God

OK. How long did it last? Was it just a over night blinding? Were any real people that were born when this happened? If so, did any of these people that were born after the blinding, die when the blinding was still in place? If so, does this mean that some Jews lived their whole life being blinded from the truth? If this be the case, and God blinded some of mankind, do you think God also has the power and right to blind man in the fall?


Does not the Bible teach that God must GIVE repentance UNTO the truth??

24And the Lord's servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing, 25in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth, 26and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will.

I think I just may stick with the Bible.



Romans 8:7 - Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Ephesians 2:1,5 - And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; ..Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Titus 3:3-5 - For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 15:19 - For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Romans 5:12-19 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification. For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22,45,49 - For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. ..And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. ..And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


Ephesians 2:3 - Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Romans 6:20 - For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.





To use your logic should we not believe in the Trinity and the Hypostatic union?


In Christ...James[/quote]

 

[reformedbeliever]

I have not read the complete thread yet but I did want to add this for the original post. You have to keep reading.

John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

If your position is correct, why would some of the Chief Rulers believe on Christ? Now part "B" explaines why they would not confess "because of the Pharisees they did not confess him". There has to be more to the story if I am willing to go to hell because of another man's views...

I will read the thread before giving my views but I wanted to point this out to everyone.

You are trying to say that because they believe that they are saved. Not so. Many who believe are not saved. They have to have faith. If they do not confess Him, He has no part of them. Grace and peace.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello psalms109:31,

I have no problem with God blinding men or hiding the truth from them, but the answer is pretty simple.

Ok. Do people have to know the truth in order to believe the truth?

God hides the truth from the wise and learned and reveals the truth to litttle children.

What is your understanding of this meaning? Does it mean only unwise fools can come to God, or does it mean only men that are not wise in the own eyes wanting their will over Gods will?

When we come to Jesus we must come to Him as a child.

Jesus came into His own and His own received Him not.

I agree, But I do not see why you keep posting these verse. I fail to see the link to the subject.

God blinds know it all's and open the eyes of those who come to Jesus as a child.

Blinds them from what?

Some of us need thorns in our sides to humble us.

Ok...who does God place thrones in the sides of, to humble in order to believe, and who does God blind, because they reject?

As saul we are murdering those who are trying to enter and it us who limit the world that Jesus said that God loved to just the elect are the one's who have been blinded by God. That God does love the world, but only whosoever believes in Jesus shall be saved

That God truely does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the trust just as the word of God say's

Ok this is about the 10th time you have said a Calvinist is blinded by God. This is like saying we are unsaved. I have overlooked it in the past as pure ignorance on your part. Calvinism is an well accepted system in the Baptist faith. You have shown your lack of understanding it, and continue to say those that believe in it are blind. By doing so you have placed many posters in the "unsaved" arena as well as many well known Calvinist of the past. You do not know how to deal with Calvinism, so you claim they are blind. This needs to stop.

To address your post, isn't your idea of God even more limited? The God that you are defending has a love that is conditional, obligated and evoked only by something the sinner does. Sorry but this ain't love in my book. You are making the love of God love into something obligatory on God's part. God owes us nothing.

The fact is that your conception of God has a "limited" type love ... limited only to those who make use of God's grace better than others. In other words, your saying God only loves those who do something FOR Him. He gives eternal life only to those who exhibit a degree of merit in themselves because they were able to produce a right thought. In this scheme, God must see something good in them before He decides whether He really loves them. What kind of love is this???!!!!! How limited!!! Jesus loves His people in spite of their sin and delivers them out of their bondage. He loves a people who were unlovable, like me and you. But He is not obligated to save all, nor does He, but He says that He died, not for all men, but only for all who would believe. He laid down His life for the sheep (John 10:15), not for the wolves who would reject Him (John 10:26). The atonement of Christ is never said to be applied to those who would ultimately be unbelievers.

Further, if seven people owe me a debt and I cancel the debt of five, does this put me under obligation to cancel the debt of the other two? No, the truth of God's word is honored not in holding exclusively to one truth to the exclusion of another truth, but in believing the whole counsel of God. We must never think God is under obligation ... for then it isn't a love that is free and unconditional.

"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." Romans 9:14-16

"Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" (Eph. 5:25) which shows that he loves His people in a way in which it is not directed toward others, even though He genuinely calls and desires that all men would believe the gospel. Continually the New Testament texts reveal to us that the love of God or the love of Christ is directed toward those who constitute the church in a way that it is not directed to others. His love is not caused by something we do but because of who He is and according to His purposes (Eph 1:5). He has set His affection on His people from eternity ... it isn't just some generic love for no one in particular hoping that one of them will make a decision for Him. No, we worship a personal God, not a god of impersonal determinism who just knows some fixed, unchangable future, as your position asserts.

This is not about our preferences or what we want God to be like. We cannot shape Him into our own image. God is not like us. Do not merely use unaided reason to determine what you believe.


Have a great day..

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello MB,

Hi James;
did you mean to address this to me or JD?

To you. I posted JD and then your reply followed by my own.


In Christ...James