Why the law and its relationship to the cross?

[Paleouss]

Greetings to all my brothers from all denomination. I wasn't sure just where to place this question and thought the best robust conversation might be here. Because I am looking for many viewpoints.

Question #1

1. Adam, as a type, sins and brings condemnation to all mankind (Romans 5:18).
2. God decrees that the law of Moses be given to make all guilty (Rom 3:19, Gal 3:11)... but “the strength of sin is the law” (1Cor 15:56). So the law gives sin strength, in some way...
3. …the law of sin reigns over mankind.
4. God decrees that He will then have mercy on mankind.

So why does God make all guilty, step (2), if He then just turns around and tries to reconcile all mankind by having mercy on them, step (4)? Why not just go straight to having mercy and doing what is simply ‘His good pleasure’?

In other words, so why the law?

Question #2
After answering, why the law? Then does Jesus’ work on the cross regarding the reconciliation of mankind, have anything to do with the law God just made all mankind guilty with?

Seek God's truth as if it were hidden treasure.

 

[Charlie24]

Greetings to all my brothers from all denomination. I wasn't sure just where to place this question and thought the best robust conversation might be here. Because I am looking for many viewpoints.

Question #1

1. Adam, as a type, sins and brings condemnation to all mankind (Romans 5:18).
2. God decrees that the law of Moses be given to make all guilty (Rom 3:19, Gal 3:11)... but “the strength of sin is the law” (1Cor 15:56). So the law gives sin strength, in some way...
3. …the law of sin reigns over mankind.
4. God decrees that He will then have mercy on mankind.

So why does God make all guilty, step (2), if He then just turns around and tries to reconcile all mankind by having mercy on them, step (4)? Why not just go straight to having mercy and doing what is simply ‘His good pleasure’?

In other words, so why the law?

Question #2
After answering, why the law? Then does Jesus’ work on the cross regarding the reconciliation of mankind, have anything to do with the law God just made all mankind guilty with?

Seek God's truth as if it were hidden treasure.

In order to answer your questions the 2 most powerful Laws in the universe must be understood. These 2 Laws are the basis for all the Laws found in Scripture, including the entire Law of Moses. It will also help to know that Paul discusses several Laws in Romans. They are as follows,

The Law of Moses
The Law of Nature
The Law of Faith
The Law of the Mind
The Law of Sin and Death
The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus

The 2 in bold are the most powerful Laws in the universe. All the angels, including Satan are subject to these 2 Laws, as well as mankind. Even God Himself is bound to these Laws. And this is the first point.

God operates by a system of rules/Laws He has decreed and enforced. There is no deviation from these Laws. They stand throughout the universe and for all time.

Because of the fall of man in the Garden of Eden, every human being born into this world Is bound by "The Law of Sin and Death." It is the second most powerful Law in the universe.

The single most powerful Law in the universe "The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus" is the official Law of God that sets man free from "The Law of Sin and Death." If man meets the condition of repentance and faith in Christ Jesus.

Everything God has done, is doing, and will do respecting mankind is on the basis of these 2 Laws.

These 2 Laws are introduced by the apostle Paul in Rom. 8. You can learn much more from Paul by reading Rom. chapters 6-8. That will set you on the path to answering your own questions.

I'll be glad to help you along with this, I think it best for you to first read it from Paul and get the general idea. Then the puzzle begins to place itself, or it did for me.

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings Charlie. Thank you for responding to my post and I hope your week has been a blessed one.

In order to answer your questions the 2 most powerful Laws in the universe must be understood. These 2 Laws are the basis for all the Laws found in Scripture, including the entire Law of Moses. It will also help to know that Paul discusses several Laws in Romans. They are as follows,

The Law of Moses
The Law of Nature
The Law of Faith
The Law of the Mind
The Law of Sin and Death
The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus

The 2 in bold are the most powerful Laws in the universe. All the angels, including Satan are subject to these 2 Laws, as well as mankind

Gotcha.

Even God Himself is bound to these Laws.

Why? In what way is he "bound"?

God operates by a system of rules/Laws He has decreed and enforced. There is no deviation from these Laws.

Why? That is, why is there no deviation from these laws, by God?

They stand throughout the universe and for all time.

Are they coeternal with God? Or were they decreed at some point by God and simply last for all time after being decreed?

The single most powerful Law in the universe "The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus" is the official Law of God that sets man free from "The Law of Sin and Death." If man meets the condition of repentance and faith in Christ Jesus.

I'll stop after this quote so as not to get ahead of all the points needing to be made.

So my question #1 was, why the law? You presented two laws being the most powerful. One being, the law of sin and death. So keeping with my OP. Why the law of Sin and Death? (1) What is it for? (2) Who decreed it (if it is not coeternal with God? (3) why was it decreed (if God decreed it). (4) when was it decreed (again, if decreed by God)?

Peace to your brother

 

[Charlie24]

Greetings Charlie. Thank you for responding to my post and I hope your week has been a blessed one.

Gotcha.

Why? In what way is he "bound"?

Why? That is, why is there no deviation from these laws, by God?

Are they coeternal with God? Or were they decreed at some point by God and simply last for all time after being decreed?

I'll stop after this quote so as not to get ahead of all the points needing to be made.

So my question #1 was, why the law? You presented two laws being the most powerful. One being, the law of sin and death. So keeping with my OP. Why the law of Sin and Death? (1) What is it for? (2) Who decreed it (if it is not coeternal with God? (3) why was it decreed (if God decreed it). (4) when was it decreed (again, if decreed by God)?

Peace to your brother

The Law of Moses has 3 parts.

The Moral Law (the Ten Commandments)
The Judicial Law
The Sacrificial/Ceremonial Law

God gave the Law to Moses to give to the Hebrews, who would later become the nation of Israel. God gave His Law only to Israel to identify sin, and prepare Israel for their coming Messiah. God set apart Israel as His chosen people to be an example to the rest of the world.

The Sacrificial Law is where the Law of Moses connects to the Cross of Christ. The sacrifice of an innocent animal shedding it's blood represented Christ shedding His Blood for the sins of man. This is how the OT saints received forgiveness of sins from God.

Lev. 4:32-35
"And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish.

And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.

And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar:

And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the Lord: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him."

Let's take it one question at a time. This all together is not an overnight study, it's months of study just to grasp it tying in the 2 Laws I mentioned.

 

[David Lamb]

Greetings to all my brothers from all denomination. I wasn't sure just where to place this question and thought the best robust conversation might be here. Because I am looking for many viewpoints.

Question #1

1. Adam, as a type, sins and brings condemnation to all mankind (Romans 5:18).
2. God decrees that the law of Moses be given to make all guilty (Rom 3:19, Gal 3:11)... but “the strength of sin is the law” (1Cor 15:56). So the law gives sin strength, in some way...
3. …the law of sin reigns over mankind.
4. God decrees that He will then have mercy on mankind.

So why does God make all guilty, step (2), if He then just turns around and tries to reconcile all mankind by having mercy on them, step (4)? Why not just go straight to having mercy and doing what is simply ‘His good pleasure’?

But God doesn't make all guilty. You quote Rom 3:19 and Gal 3:11 to say that He does. Romans 3:19 says:

“Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.” (Ro 3:19 NKJV)

Nothing there about God making them guilty.

Galatians 3:11 says:

“But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."” (Ga 3:11 NKJV)

Again, nothing about God making people guilty. People are guilty in God's sight because they disobey His commandments.

 

[Paleouss]

But God doesn't make all guilty. You quote Rom 3:19 and Gal 3:11 to say that He does. Romans 3:19 says:

“Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.” (Ro 3:19 NKJV)

Nothing there about God making them guilty.

David. glad to hear from you. Many thanks for your response to my post. I hope you are doing well over there.

It seems to me that this is the implications of Romans 3:19...

(1) God decreed the law
(2) the law makes "every mouth be stopped" and that "all the world may become guilty before God".

If all the world has become guilty before God through the law...and God decreed the law...then it seems reasonable to say that God decreed the law so that all would become guilty before God.

Now, if you are objecting to the word "making" as if it denotes some unjustness on God's part...then I concede to this correction. For I in no way intend to suggest that God is unjust. In fact, I'm trying to clear a path to show that He is just and internally consistent.

Galatians 3:11 says:

“But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."” (Ga 3:11 NKJV)

It seemed to me that if no one is justified by the law then all are guilty under the law. The law doesn't justify...it makes guilty. What do you think?


Peace to you brother

 

[Paleouss]

God gave the Law to Moses to give to the Hebrews, who would later become the nation of Israel.

Greetings Charlie. I hope you are well. I have the in-laws coming in this weekend. So getting ready for that.

God gave His Law only to Israel to identify sin, and prepare Israel for their coming Messiah.

Is this true? That is, did God give His law, the Ten Commandments, to only Israel? I know physically He did. But was it intended for the whole world? As in, to be spread throughout the whole world so that all mankind fall under it?

Peace to you brother

 

[Charlie24]

Greetings Charlie. I hope you are well. I have the in-laws coming in this weekend. So getting ready for that.

Is this true? That is, did God give His law, the Ten Commandments, to only Israel? I know physically He did. But was it intended for the whole world? As in, to be spread throughout the whole world so that all mankind fall under it?

Peace to you brother

The Law of Moses was only for the Jews. There were many Gentiles over the years who came under Covenant with Israel, under the Law. God gave special instructions for their part in the keeping of the Law.

The Ten Commandments will stand forever, it is universal in its scope for mankind. Nine of the ten are moral laws, with the keeping of the Sabbath being fulfilled by Christ. He is our rest that the Sabbath represented.

Paul said the Old (Law) has passed away that the New (the New Covenant in Christ) might come which will unite the Jews and Gentile into one body of Christ. That can't happen until Israel is saved at the Second Coming.

 

[David Lamb]

David. glad to hear from you. Many thanks for your response to my post. I hope you are doing well over there.

It seems to me that this is the implications of Romans 3:19...

(1) God decreed the law
(2) the law makes "every mouth be stopped" and that "all the world may become guilty before God".

If all the world has become guilty before God through the law...and God decreed the law...then it seems reasonable to say that God decreed the law so that all would become guilty before God.

Now, if you are objecting to the word "making" as if it denotes some unjustness on God's part...then I concede to this correction. For I in no way intend to suggest that God is unjust. In fact, I'm trying to clear a path to show that He is just and internally consistent.


It seemed to me that if no one is justified by the law then all are guilty under the law. The law doesn't justify...it makes guilty. What do you think?


Peace to you brother

Yes, now that you have explained what you meant, I agree with you. God did give the law, which doesn't justify (unless one keeps it perfectly from cradle to grave, which of course is not possible.) I think it better to avoid "make" in this context, because it could so easily imply that it is God that makes us guilty. Interesting discussion - thanks!

 

[Paleouss]

Charlie, thank you for your time and patience. Many blessings to you.

The Law of Moses was only for the Jews

So, I'm trying to be a stickler here because I think it is important to what I'm trying to discover or understand.

In the previous post you wrote...

The Law of Moses has 3 parts.

The Moral Law (the Ten Commandments)
The Judicial Law
The Sacrificial/Ceremonial Law

So when you reference the laws as "The Law of Moses" I'm taking that to mean all 3 parts you have told me are contained in the term "Law of Moses".

I understand that the Laws were first given to the Jewish people. However, in regard to the Ten Commandments, was it intended for only the Jewish people or was it intended for all the world?

Was not the giving of the Law “because of transgressions” (Gal 3:19)? If so, was that the transgression it was given for, only the transgressions of the Jews or was it because of the transgressions of the whole world?

As Mr. Lamb and I discussed in another post, was not the Law given so that "every mouth be stopped" (Rom 3:19) and "all the world may become guilty before God" (Rom 3:19)?

Was not the law give so that through the “knowledge of sin” (Rom 3:20, Rom 7:7); it, the Law, spotlights sin, so in the light the “offense might abound” (Rom 5:20); therefore being a “tutor” (Gal 3:24), a guide toward the object of this world’s purposeful end, that is the Son of God?

If these examples are correct, then it seems to me that the Ten Commandments were "given" to the Jewish people. However, it was "intended" for the whole world. For the whole world is what the law seemed to affect.

What do you think?

 

[Charlie24]

Charlie, thank you for your time and patience. Many blessings to you.

So, I'm trying to be a stickler here because I think it is important to what I'm trying to discover or understand.

In the previous post you wrote...

So when you reference the laws as "The Law of Moses" I'm taking that to mean all 3 parts you have told me are contained in the term "Law of Moses".

I understand that the Laws were first given to the Jewish people. However, in regard to the Ten Commandments, was it intended for only the Jewish people or was it intended for all the world?

Was not the giving of the Law “because of transgressions” (Gal 3:19)? If so, was that the transgression it was given for, only the transgressions of the Jews or was it because of the transgressions of the whole world?

As Mr. Lamb and I discussed in another post, was not the Law given so that "every mouth be stopped" (Rom 3:19) and "all the world may become guilty before God" (Rom 3:19)?

Was not the law give so that through the “knowledge of sin” (Rom 3:20, Rom 7:7); it, the Law, spotlights sin, so in the light the “offense might abound” (Rom 5:20); therefore being a “tutor” (Gal 3:24), a guide toward the object of this world’s purposeful end, that is the Son of God?

If these examples are correct, then it seems to me that the Ten Commandments were "given" to the Jewish people. However, it was "intended" for the whole world. For the whole world is what the law seemed to affect.

What do you think?

In Gal. 3:19, Paul asks the question, "what good is the Law" (the Law of Moses), then he says, "it was added because of transgressions" (sin).

There was no Law from God in the world, no one knew what was right or wrong, man only had his conscience to guide him.

In the beginning Adam and his family had direct contact with God, but as man began to spread out sin followed.

Rom. 3:20
"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin".

"The knowledge of sin" is what enables man to identify sin. God gave His chosen people, Israel, the Law. He didn't give it to any other people on earth, only Israel. God gave the coming Messiah who would pay the sin debt of the world, only to Israel.

The Law of Moses was given to Israel for them to prepare the way for their coming Messiah and introduce Him to the world. They failed miserably and killed their own Messiah.

God turned to the Gentiles, mainly through Paul, and built His church. That is where we are at this very moment in God's Biblical timing.

As far as the 10 Commandments, they were first given to Israel, again, to identify sin and prepare them for their coming Messiah. These commandments are moral Laws, they will stand forever throughout the entire universe. These commandments spread throughout the world over time.

It was wrong to steal 2500 years ago and it's still wrong today, and so on with these commandments, which makes them universal.

 

[Charlie24]

In Gal. 3:19, Paul asks the question, "what good is the Law" (the Law of Moses), then he says, "it was added because of transgressions" (sin).

There was no Law from God in the world, no one knew what was right or wrong, man only had his conscience to guide him.

In the beginning Adam and his family had direct contact with God, but as man began to spread out sin followed.

Rom. 3:20
"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin".

"The knowledge of sin" is what enables man to identify sin. God gave His chosen people, Israel, the Law. He didn't give it to any other people on earth, only Israel. God gave the coming Messiah who would pay the sin debt of the world, only to Israel.

The Law of Moses was given to Israel for them to prepare the way for their coming Messiah and introduce Him to the world. They failed miserably and killed their own Messiah.

God turned to the Gentiles, mainly through Paul, and built His church. That is where we are at this very moment in God's Biblical timing.

As far as the 10 Commandments, they were first given to Israel, again, to identify sin and prepare them for their coming Messiah. These commandments are moral Laws, they will stand forever throughout the entire universe. These commandments spread throughout the world over time.

It was wrong to steal 2500 years ago and it's still wrong today, and so on with these commandments, which makes them universal.

Something else very important to know. The Church is God's second choice to announce Christ to the world.

His original choice was Israel, but already mentioned, Israel failed and killed Christ.

God turned to the Gentiles to take Christ to the world.

But Paul said that God is not finished with Israel, they will fulfill their original calling by God.

That's why is Israel is still here, becoming a nation again in 1948, and going strong.

God is far from finished with Israel!

 

[kyredneck]

Quoting Habakkuk 2:4:

"the just shall live by faith."” (Ga 3:11 NKJV)

Hab 2:4
the righteous by his stedfastness liveth. YLT

Hab 2:4
the just one shall live by his faithfulness. SLT

Compare with:

Ro 2:7

to them that by patience in well-doing ....eternal life: ASV

 

[Paleouss]

Sorry Charlie, I was gone for a bit hosting the in-laws.

In Gal. 3:19, Paul asks the question, "what good is the Law" (the Law of Moses), then he says, "it was added because of transgressions" (sin).

Awesome. I'll just add that along with Gal 3:19, other insights into 'why the law' would be for a “knowledge of sin” (Rom 3:20, Rom 7:7); and so the “offense might abound” (Rom 5:20); and to be a “tutor” (Gal 3:24), a guide toward the object of this world’s purposeful end, that is the Son of God.

There was no Law from God in the world, no one knew what was right or wrong, man only had his conscience to guide him.

For the most part I agree. I only say most part because it seems to me that the law of "thou shalt not eat of the tree" was the one law that was in affect. I think we see this in (Rom 5:14 NKJV) "14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come".

So back to Gal 3:19, one of the reason for the law was "because of transgressions" (Gal 3:19) points to Romans 5:14. These transgressions ran rampant, causing alienation and bringing death (Rom 5:14) and were left unchecked because “sin is the transgression of the law” (1John 3:4) but “where no law is, [there is] no transgression” (Rom 5:14 KJV), and “sin is not imputed when there is no law” (Rom 5:13).

As far as the 10 Commandments, they were first given to Israel, again, to identify sin and prepare them for their coming Messiah. These commandments are moral Laws, they will stand forever throughout the entire universe. These commandments spread throughout the world over time.

Amen.


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2)