Taufgesinnter
New Member
The Rapture took place before the Tribulation did? Whoa...
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WHY THE RAPTURE MUST BE PRE-TRIBULATION
- Thread starter Elder Fred Wilson
- Start date
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
There are probably more protestants
here that belive that than RC members
</font>[/QUOTE]At the turn of the 19th century - by far the majority of Catholic and non-Catholic Christians took a post millenial view of the second coming.However - I find it interesting that you would claim that the majority of non-Catholics take that view "still" today. What group is that?
Since the Baptists are the largest non-Catholic group and they all accept a premillenial 2nd coming - who are those that reject it?
In Christ,
Bob </font>[/QUOTE]The word you missed
in what i claimed is HERE. "Here" means
like the ones who post on this board,
specifically the ones who post on
this board on this subject.
May God's best blessings flow free
and thick unto Brother Bob Ryan,
his family, and his ministry this
very day. Amen.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
[scarcasm]Yes, we done been through the Rapture, the
Tribulation period, and are now into
the Millinnial Kingdom of Jesus
Can't you tell it in the faces of
the 200,000 Chrisitan martyrs each year?
Don't you notice the lion lying down
with the lambs? Don't you let your
toddlers play in the asp's den?[/scarcasm]
Sorry, i think "tribulation" means
"tribulation" and NOT "sunday school picnic".
AngelforChrist
New Member
Bob , since you think the rapture is at the end of the tribulation , wouldnt that make that a known day? Christ said no man would know the day, yet from the prophecies we know that the abomination of desolation will occur at the begining of the "great" tribulation when satan proclaims himself God in the temple , now couldnt we just count 3.5 years and know the day? Thats another reason it doesnt make sense that the rapture would be then . The second coming is a known day , but the rapture is not , so they cant be the same day .
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Amen, Sister AngelforChrist -- Preach it!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
If you think you know when the tribulation will start or on what day it will end then -- you are mistaken.
Clearly - you don't know either the start of the tribulation or the day it will end. You only know the "Event" that will end it - the return of Christ. My point stands.
We could certainly count 3.5 years once the final tribulation starts (the one after all the many many tribulations the Christian church has already endured) - but there is nothing that says that 3.5 years after the final tribulation starts - Christ will come. In fact there is nothign that says the final tribulation will last 1 year or 3 years or 7 years or 10 years.
Which means you don't have this as a "reason" pointing to two different 2nd comings - one for the rapture and then another one.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The bottom line is -
#1. You can't show any precidence or basis in scripture for splitting timeline prophecies apart and inserting gaps of unknown time into the middle of timelines. It would not work with the 2300 days of Daniel, it can't work with the 70 years of Jeremiah, it doesn't work with the 70 weeks (490 years) of Daniel, it wouldn't work with the 3 days and 3 nights of Christ in the grave .. it would not work anywhere.
#2. Once you come to grips with rule #1 - then you also don't have a rule or basis for a 3.5 year end-time tribulation from Daniel 9.
#3. In Rev 12 you have the 1260 year tribulation of the church following the ascension of Christ into heaven (the dark ages). However - the 2nd coming is not the event that concludes that 1260 years - so it too can not serve as a basis for guessing the date of the 2nd coming.
#4. In Rev 13 you have the receiving of the deadly wound - and its healing - following the 1260 year persecution of Christians in the dark ages (described in Rev 12 and again in Rev 13) - however that is not "the second coming" it merely shows that the French treatment of the Pope in the late 1700's and the loss of RC power (and its ability to persecute diminished) in Europe at that time was predicted in the Bible.
In Christ,
Bob
#1. You can't show any precidence or basis in scripture for splitting timeline prophecies apart and inserting gaps of unknown time into the middle of timelines. It would not work with the 2300 days of Daniel, it can't work with the 70 years of Jeremiah, it doesn't work with the 70 weeks (490 years) of Daniel, it wouldn't work with the 3 days and 3 nights of Christ in the grave .. it would not work anywhere.
#2. Once you come to grips with rule #1 - then you also don't have a rule or basis for a 3.5 year end-time tribulation from Daniel 9.
#3. In Rev 12 you have the 1260 year tribulation of the church following the ascension of Christ into heaven (the dark ages). However - the 2nd coming is not the event that concludes that 1260 years - so it too can not serve as a basis for guessing the date of the 2nd coming.
#4. In Rev 13 you have the receiving of the deadly wound - and its healing - following the 1260 year persecution of Christians in the dark ages (described in Rev 12 and again in Rev 13) - however that is not "the second coming" it merely shows that the French treatment of the Pope in the late 1700's and the loss of RC power (and its ability to persecute diminished) in Europe at that time was predicted in the Bible.
In Christ,
Bob
AngelforChrist
New Member
Bob , daniels 70TH WEEK has not yet happened , granted i dont know when the tribulation will start , but I do know that once the abomination of desolation occurs and the 2 witnesses are killed , i will be able to count the days to the return of Christ , which would mean I would know what day that is . Since daniels 70th week has not happened yet and we know the other 69 were weeks of years , then we have 7 years tribulation.
Israel has not been dealt with yet , the time of Jacobs trouble has not yet happened and Jacob is not the church , there are too many reasons why the rapture cannot be post trib . All of the verses cannot be correlated and by your veiw , you are mixing it seems to me , 2 different belief systems to force fit an interpretation with no criteria for whats literal and what isnt , for whats future and whats past . The fact that you have having to mix the two is clear to me that your theology is off . We will have to agree to disagree here , because in my veiw what you are saying does not line up with scripture .
Oh and as to your "french" popes theory? Israel didnt even exist yet again .
Israel has not been dealt with yet , the time of Jacobs trouble has not yet happened and Jacob is not the church , there are too many reasons why the rapture cannot be post trib . All of the verses cannot be correlated and by your veiw , you are mixing it seems to me , 2 different belief systems to force fit an interpretation with no criteria for whats literal and what isnt , for whats future and whats past . The fact that you have having to mix the two is clear to me that your theology is off . We will have to agree to disagree here , because in my veiw what you are saying does not line up with scripture .
Oh and as to your "french" popes theory? Israel didnt even exist yet again .
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Restating your assumption is not a "kind of proof".
As pointed out in the previous post - ALL Bible timelines are contiguous by definition. There is no case in scripture where any timeline can have undefined gaps inserted and STILL survive as a timeline.
All the prophecy examples I gave REMAIN valid because no undefined gaps of time can be inserted - thus they remain and are reliable - predictable, observable - measurable.
Every Christian group on the planet admits that Daniels 70 week timeline began in the days of Ezra and Nehemia and goes to the time of Christ.
It is impossible to dispute these facts.
Again. That is simply another assumption. There is no text stating that "from the start of the final tribulation there will be 3 years" or 3.5 years or 7 years or 1 year".
Not only that - but the christian church as ALREADY gone through MANY tribulations as Christ stated - and as John predicted. Millions killed in the dark ages.
There is no question that the single 70 week timeline is actually a timeline of 490 years. No doubt at all. But that timeline just like every other one (and please note that in Daniel 9 where find that 70 week timeline - Daniel STARTS the chapter with Jeremiahs 70 YEAR timeline) ALL timelines are contiguous by definition.
You have to admit - your logic here is kind of convoluted. Sticking with the text of Daniel 9 - you have no reason to bring in the time of Jacob's trouble --
In Matt 23 Christ predicted the house of Israel (their temple) was about to be desolated.
In 1Thess 2 Paul states that their cup of iniquity was already full. In Romans 11 we have their having fallen out of the vine. This completes the time alloted for the Jews as a nation-CHURCH as Daniel 9 predicts.
It is over.
Why are you mixing Israel in - with the persecution of the Christians by the Catholic church in the dark ages? That too - seems convoluted.
In Christ,
Bob
The Harvest
New Member
Yes, consider Noah, and the non-allegorical story of the flood:Originally posted by BrianT:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by A_Christian:
The best reply to all of this, is the example of
Noah. This is the very same example that Christ
used. Was Noah in the Ark with Christ for the
entire FLOOD or did he climb in all wet and
soaked half way through?
- Noah didn't leave the earth 7 years before the final destruction of the wicked.
- he was *on the earth* when that destruction came, even though the destruction wasn't "appointed to him".
- when Christ compared his coming to the days of Noah, he compared it in the aspect of the *wicked* being the ones that were "taken away" (Matt 24:39) </font>[/QUOTE]Ok here's some more typology for you then.
Enoch was translated just before the flood. Enoch is a type of the Church being raptured before the tribulation.
D
dumbox1
Guest
Hi Keith,
I'd be interested to see your math on this, based on Genesis 5 and 6. My calculations came out a bit differently. (Although I did have Enoch's son Methuselah dying right around the year of the flood).
Thanks,
Mark
(Edited to fix typo)
Downsville
New Member
MATT.13
[24] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:[25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.[26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.[27] So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?[28] He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?[29] But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
[30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
[36] Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.[37] He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;[38] The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;[39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.[40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.[41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.[43] Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Let both grow together until the harvest:
the good seed are the children of the kingdom Hmm.
the harvest is the end of the world
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend
DO YOU CLAIM TO BE CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM?
[24] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:[25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.[26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.[27] So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?[28] He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?[29] But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
[30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
[36] Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.[37] He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;[38] The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;[39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.[40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.[41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.[43] Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Let both grow together until the harvest:
the good seed are the children of the kingdom Hmm.
the harvest is the end of the world
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend
DO YOU CLAIM TO BE CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM?
Rev.6:14, we see signs in the sky, and the peoples, sensing the coming judgment, now begin to hide in fear. This is the sixth seal, which is before the 2nd coming in both of our views, and after it in the pre-trib view.
Rev. 14:10 is NOT the lake of fire! Everyone thinks that, but it is nowhere in the context. This is the "eternal" destruction of men's kingdoms, not yet their souls. Their torment is "in the presence of" God and the angels, not in "eternal separation" from them. It refers to the coming bowl judgments, (culminating in Armageddon) whose severity is such that its effects last forever (people see "smoke...torment...no rest day and night...forever and ever..." and right away assume it is Hell. But that is still 1000 years away)
I already explained that Rev. 19 and 20 are showing an already returned Christ, and then both the resurrected saints, plus the earlier mentioned raptured saints receiving their rewards.
I did acknowledge that the resurrection was at the 2nd coming.
Well, I do believe the Church is so "hidden" from the last 7 plagues. Not seven years (prophetic "days", unless the plagues do happen to occur in 7 literal days), but then there are other discrepancies in the parallelism, such as the marriage supper (with the present) being in ch.19 towards the end, not at the beginning of this "hiding" of the bride after the actual wedding. And it's not a "celebration" He rejoins during the whole period.
The seven last plagues or bowls are purely divine judgment, and the Church is removed before it. The trumpets are a mixture of divine, human and perhaps also natural calamities as the nations fight and the mark of the Beast is enforced. The Seals are with the exception of 6 and 7, mainly humanly caused troubles. So to call the whole period "the tribulation" is not 100% accurate, and it is not all directly God's judgment. (In Matt. 24, we see that "the great tribulation" is really only the 5th seal)
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Comparing the earthquake at the
6th seal and the 7th bowl
Rev 6:14 & Rev 16:20
Earlier at the 6th seal:
every island moved,
the mountains move also
at the 7th bowl, the
islands disappear,
the mountains are flattened
The worse earthquake we have in this
age is about 9.0.
The 6th seal earthquake i predict
will be 15.0 - like a million 9.0s
(9.0 earthquakes every 16 miles).
The 7th bowl earthquake i predict
will be 18.0 - like a
billion 9.0s, like a thousand 6th seal
earthquakes.
Sorry, not cyclic, Revelation
is linear stern to bow.
6th seal and the 7th bowl
Rev 6:14 & Rev 16:20
Earlier at the 6th seal:
every island moved,
the mountains move also
at the 7th bowl, the
islands disappear,
the mountains are flattened
The worse earthquake we have in this
age is about 9.0.
The 6th seal earthquake i predict
will be 15.0 - like a million 9.0s
(9.0 earthquakes every 16 miles).
The 7th bowl earthquake i predict
will be 18.0 - like a
billion 9.0s, like a thousand 6th seal
earthquakes.
Sorry, not cyclic, Revelation
is linear stern to bow.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
6:14
14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"
Indeed - they are correct it is the FACE of the LAMB that they are seeing in the coulds of heaven.
This is unquestionably the return - the appearing of Christ SEEN in Rev 6.
Rev 14
9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyONE worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 HE TOO, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. HE WILL BE TORMENTED be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of THEIR TORMENT rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night FOR THOSE WHO worship the beast and his image, or for anyONE who receives the mark of his name." 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.
It is INDIVIDUAL - "AnyONE" and "HE TOO will drink of the wrath of God" it is INDIVIDUAL specific!!
And YES - this torment will occur ENTIRELY in the presence of the Lamb and of His saints just as thew Bible says.
And YES it is THE torment of FIRE and Brimstone that is also recorded in Rev 20. There is NO reference to FIRE and BRIMSTONE as a plauge/bowl-judgment in Rev 16 though you propose that it should be inserted there.
Rev 19 is the longest and most explicit text in all of Revelation describing the appearing of Christ - with His great army (as 2Thess 1 also describes).
The is the SAME name Christ is given in John 1:1.
This is HEAVEN OPENED - and Christ appearing in it with the armies of heaven FOLLOWING Him.
Clearly this is the START of His RULE.
The nations are subdued here - in fact they are wiped out. ALL people are destroyed.
Here we see that the judgment is against ALL people on the earth.
We see the leaders of darkness destroyed along with their armies.
Then we see "THE REST" are killed by the sword of Christ.
They are not buried over the weeks and months that follow - because there is NO one to bury them.
Rather the birds eat them.
Indeed - the "FIRST resurrection" is the resurrection of the righteous.
The resurrection of the righteous is described in even more detail in 1Thess 4. "The DEAD in Christ"
are raised.
In Christ,
Bob
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
David didn't choose the cover picture nor the subtitle (Publishers, you can't live with them, and you can't live without them), which are both slightly distasteful, but the content is excellent. I listened to him speak on this subject at the Institute of Applied Biblical Studies at the Franciscan University of Steubenville this summer, and my goodness, he has this subject researched from the ground up.. considering that he used to teach a pre-trib rapture in a Fundamentalist seminary. We have right around a thousand copies at the St. Paul Center For Biblical Theology - http://www.SalvationHistory.com - if you donate 100 bucks, we'll send you one for free.