Why the Sunday-keeping Church thinks of Sunday as the Sabbath

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

All these are direct points for testing.

Should have an easy "yes" or "no".

As for calling "week-day-one the Lord's Day" it is clear that this eventually happened over time but it is not likely to have occurred in the first century.

Mark 2:27 the "Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath" is as close as we get in scripture to a "designation" of a week-day one of THE seven - as "Lord's Day"




Well proving or disproving that should be fairly straightforward.




Certainly it can be argued that traditions starting 100 years or more afte the Disciples have left -- could be in error.

in Christ,

Bob

GE

On everything, yes; but. But what is the significance? But what does it matter falsities took over as time progressed? But what matters - or should matter to us - is how and where and why it all started! And here is what I think: The pagan Sunday-keeping world wanted to high-jack everything genuinely Christian, and in order to do it it had to corrupt Scripture first - unobtrusively, so as not to provoke Christian resistance. It had to win the argument of Jesus' resurrection for the First Day of the week above anything else, and in order to do it, it (the false prophets or champions of the new and wordly Christianity) had to corrupt the ONLY text in all of the New Testament that in so many words give the time and day of Jesus' resurrection - Mt28:1. Justin did it, minutely and exactly switching about the meaning of every given in the text - and it all for winning the favour of the worldly powers. That was the earliest instance of the transfer of the Sabbath's meaning and value for Christian worship to Sunday, outside the NT. In Gal4:10 can be seen the even earlier attempt of the world to infiltrate and contaminate Christian Worship with its idolatry - and the Galatians very nearly permenantly returned to their old pagan idolatry of the veneration of the four Greek 'gods' or 'first principles' (stoicheia) of time, days, months, seasons, years. The Church General or Universal soon fell for it after the Apostolic era (first century), and has ever since refused to repent of it's sin of disobedience to the Commandments of God - from there their enmity against the Ten Commandments and the Fourth in particular. It is of no avail they talk honouring Christ with Sunday observance; the Church only deepens its dilemma and guilt! Because Sunday-observance is the worst kind of idolatry one could get - saying it honours Christ while in fact - and in effect - it dishonours and insult the Saviour.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Because every time it asks for further and more lying and hypocrisy.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

In order to win Christianity for Sunday idolatry the perverters of the Faith had to succeed in two things: They had to corrupt Scripture; They had to steal the resurrection from the Sabbath for Sunday. the rest was easy, and succesful beyond imagination. Watch the ire! Watch it from both Sundaydarians and Sabbatharians - for neither will budge an inch that the Sunday resurrection is a holy cow.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Mike
"Thats up to the believer. Thats nobodies business but his/hers. There is no legalistic "mandate". The scripture says "do not forsake the gathering of yourselves together, as is the manner of some." "

GE
That to me is a mighty big contradiction - a big untruth therefore. The writer admonishing the Church - not individuals - not to neglect their common practice - which was non-existent?!


Mike
It doesnt have to be weekly.

GE
If the Scriptures were the authority, it had to be Sabbathly, every month all year round - perpetually, the Sabbath! (That is, if the Scriptures meant anything.)

Mike
Some in the 1st century gathered daily.

GE
Mistake, sorry! Exactly so as not to be fully engaged in the proclamation of the Gospel, the first believers voted certain responsibilities into existing and the Apostles could continue to proclaim in the houses (when everybody would be home) - naturally during the week - and then on sabbaths when everybody so naturally would go to Church, would proclaim Jesus Christ to the Congregation. So naturally no one had any difiiculty with the normal thing of may generations. So why mention it? If an issue was made then one might have deduced the 'weekly' or 'Sabbathly' rule was found defective. Otherwise one has to assume everything was just fine with Sabbath-keeping.

It is very obviously that the Church did experience certain orientation problems with the Sabbath Day, but that clearly never had been an issue about which day was the Day of Worship; but an issue of WHY the Day of Worship. The whole Church used to find the Law good enough reason why. But now since Jesus Christ became the essence of Christian Worship, the nature of the Day of worship also had to be adapted to the New Covenant relationship between Worshipped and worshippers.


Mike
Sometimes I'll go to 3 or more gatherings in the course of a week. Sometimes I'll miss a couple weeks or so, but I get kinda antsy to get in on one when I do because I miss the blessing I always get.

GE
God bless you! Now everybody should follow suit? Who makes the Laws? You see, we have a Community here - the Christian Community of the saints - one Lord, one faith, one walk, one witness, one Assembly (Hb10!) God would make provision for its every need - and for its every blessing. Hence, God through Christ 'made the Sabbath for man' and his worship of Him.

Mike
Could be because Gods people prior to Christ met regular once a week and it seemed like a good thing to continue

GE
Absolutely!

Mike
... only on Sunday because of the resurrection.

GE
No possibility on Sunday, though confirm the 'because' with 'resurrection'!! Nowhere promised God the First Day a blessing, gave it a sanctification, finished it a rest ... because in the last days Christ was waiting to fulfill every promise of God with Yea and Amen! The thing expected has always been the Sabbath's reviving of God through Christ. That's why, no possibility it turned out to be the Sunday! Then confirmation shows it faithfully has been God's day of "thus concerning having spoken, "the Seventh Day" ... Sabbath, of course!

They had the freedom to choose God's chosen Day - it had been given them; that is Grace! Not what they wanted - like the world demanded of them, the Day of the sun - no; the Day God delighted in in Christ - every Sabbath doing and finishing the works the Father gave Him to do ... and that was the Day they chose. The Gospels are the proof of it. The Church received that freedom. Christ made us free. Now they were able to obey. Now they desired to do the will of God, in honour to Christ. It had never been like this before! There is that difference between our being "commanded" and the willfull choice to be in the building every Sunday! There is no mentality of that sort under the New Covenant, but the yearning of the sheep after the Shepherd in a thirsty land.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Dear Bound,

Here's what I found re Irenaeus and the Lord's Day,

Dr Edwards, 'Sabbath Manual, p 114, "Hence Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons, a disciple of Polycarp, who had been the companion of the apostles, A.D. 167, says that the Lord's Day was the Christian Sabbath. His words are, "On the Lord's Day every one of us Christians keeps the Sabbath, meditating on the Law and rejoicing in the works of God." I got this from JN Andrews. He then comments,
"Sir Wm. Domville, whose elaborate treatise on the Sabbath ... states the following ... relative to this quotation," ...

"I have carefully searched through all the extant works of Irenaeus and can with certainty state that no such passage , or any one at all resembling it, is there to be found. The edition I consulted was that of Massuet Paris 1710. But to assure myself still further, I have since looked to the editions by Erasmus Paris 1563, and Grabe, Oxford 1702, and in neither do I find the passage in question." 'Examination of the Six Texts', pp. 131/2.

Now I can see you must have used Dwight as source of your information, Bound? Am I right? What was your source?

 

[BobRyan]

May I use the opportunity to invite BobRayn and the rest of you, for a discussion on thread, "Why the Sunday-keeping Church thinks of Sunday as the Sabbath?" See you there, God willing!

I gave one example of someone who considered the 4th commandment to also apply to Sunday in post 44 on this same thread -- In that case it was D.L.Moody

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1120906&postcount=44

However I believe that John Gill (author of the first Baptist Bible commentary) also takes a similar position. I will check.

In the mean time here is a quote of the core 4th commandment argument that Moody makes -

D L Moody

http://www.fbinstitute.com/
http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The...ents_Text.html

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, [b]He did nothing to set it aside[/b]; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

In this post I show the rationale used by most Christian teachers before the time of D.L Moody and John Gill to find a way of including week-day-one observances under the 4th commandment.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1120579&postcount=25

 

[TCGreek]

I gave one example of someone who considered the 4th commandment to also apply to Sunday in post 44 on this same thread -- In that case it was D.L.Moody

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1120906&postcount=44

However I believe that John Gill (author of the first Baptist Bible commentary) also takes a similar position. I will check.

In the mean time here is a quote of the core 4th commandment argument that Moody makes -

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In this post I show the rationale used by most Christian teachers before the time of D.L Moody and John Gill to find a way of including week-day-one observances under the 4th commandment.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1120579&postcount=25

Many well to do brethren from the past got some things wrong, and this was one of them. Sunday is not the new Sabbath--even the Puritans got this wrong.

 

[Joe]

Thanks for this link Bob -->http://www.fbinstitute.com/

I just skimmed it, but will read further tonight. D.L Moody appears very dedicated and grounded in the word. (Note: I am sure he is not perfect but there appears some great bible studies on this link. He's into health)

 

[BobRyan]

Many well to do brethren from the past got some things wrong, and this was one of them. Sunday is not the new Sabbath--even the Puritans got this wrong.

As stated before on this thread - I agree with your point above. That the 4th commandment can not be edited to start applying to week-day-one.

I am simply looking at the OP question about the rationale and evidence that this is exactly the application that is made by many today and even by many in years past.

I agree with Moody on the continued authority of the commandment - I do not agree with the edit that he believes to be valid in the case of that commandment. (I have stated that repeatedly on another more recent thread as well)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks for this link Bob -->http://www.fbinstitute.com/

I just skimmed it, but will read further tonight. D.L Moody appears very dedicated and grounded in the word. (Note: I am sure he is not perfect but there appears some great bible studies on this link. He's into health)

He is a great Christian teacher and preacher from the past. I really like his sermon on the Ten Commandments in general and his arguments in favor of the 4th commandment.

However as TCG has pointed out - there is an error in his statement about where the 4th commandment can be applied. And that mistake on Moody's part is in fact specific to the topic of this thread.

BTW I just checked and John Gill does not take the same line of argument in favor of the Ten Commandments that Moody takes.

However here is another group of Bible commentary authors that did adopt the same solution as Moody did.

Gen 2 (Jamieson, Fausset, Brown)

3. blessed and sanctified the seventh day--a peculiar distinction put upon it above the other six days, and showing it was devoted to sacred purposes. The institution of the Sabbath is as old as creation, giving rise to that weekly division of time which prevailed in the earliest ages. It is a wise and beneficent law, affording that regular interval of rest which the physical nature of man and the animals employed in his service requires, and the neglect of which brings both to premature decay. Moreover, it secures an appointed season for religious worship, and if it was necessary in a state of primeval innocence, how much more so now, when mankind has a strong tendency to forget God and His claims?
http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=002

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

As stated before on this thread - I agree with your point above. That the 4th commandment can not be edited to start applying to week-day-one.

I am simply looking at the OP question about the rationale and evidence that this is exactly the application that is made by many today and even by many in years past.

I agree with Moody on the continued authority of the commandment - I do not agree with the edit that he believes to be valid in the case of that commandment. (I have stated that repeatedly on another more recent thread as well)

in Christ,

Bob

Bob,

1. When I started reading church history and encountered how some referred to Sunday as the new Sabbath, it puzzled me. I thought, They should have known that there's an obvious difference. But I guess they saw the importance of keep something like a Sabbath, and so they pinned it on Sunday.

2. While I do not believe we need to observe the Jewish Sabbath, Saturday should be a day when we remember the creation account.

 

[BobRyan]

Another author taking the same track --

Adam Clarke
Genesis Chapter 2
Verse 3. And God blessed the seventh day Because in it He had rested
shabath, he rested; hence Sabbath, the name of the seventh day, signifying a day of rest-rest to the body from labour and toil, and rest to the soul from all worldly care and anxieties. He who labours with his mind by worldly schemes and plans on the Sabbath day is as culpable as he who labours with his hands in his accustomed calling. It is by the authority of God that the Sabbath is set apart for rest and religious purposes, as the six days of the week are appointed for labour. How wise is this provision! It is essentially necessary, not only to the body of man, but to all the animals employed in his service: take this away and the labour is too great, both man and beast would fail under it. Without this consecrated day religion itself would fail, and the human mind, becoming sensualized, would soon forget its origin and end. Even as a political regulation, it is one of the wisest and most beneficent in its effects of any ever instituted. Those who habitually disregard its moral obligation are, to a man, not only good for nothing, but are wretched in themselves, a curse to society, and often end their lives miserably. See Clarke on Exodus 20:8.; "Ex 23:12"; "Ex 24:16"; and See Clarke on Exodus 31:13.; to which the reader is particularly desired to refer.
As God formed both the mind and body of man on principles of activity, so he assigned him proper employment; and it is his decree that the mind shall improve by exercise, and the body find increase of vigour and health in honest labour. He who idles away his time in the six days is equally culpable in the sight of God as he who works on the seventh. The idle person is ordinarily clothed with rags, and the Sabbath-breakers frequently come to an ignominions death. Reader, beware.
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=002


Mark 2:27 Adam Clarke
Verse 27. The Sabbath was made for man
That he might have the seventh part of his whole time to devote to the purposes of bodily rest and spiritual exercises. And in these respects it is of infinite use to mankind. Where no Sabbath is observed, there disease, poverty, and profligacy, generally prevail. Had we no Sabbath, we should soon have no religion. This whole verse is wanting in the Codex Bezae, and in five of the Itala.

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mr&chapter=002

Is it any wonder then that such a question arises as we find in the OP?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

1. When I started reading church history and encountered how some referred to Sunday and the new Sabbath, it puzzled me. I thought, They should have known that there's an obvious difference. But I guess they saw the importance of keep something like a Sabbath, and so they pinned it on Sunday.

2. While I do not believe we need to observe the Jewish Sabbath, Saturday should be a day when we remember the creation account.

Are you saying that it should be a weekly memorial activity for us (7 day cycle of creation week) done on the actual Sabbath? If so what would we be doing "in memorial" of it? Recall that in Exodus 20 there is no animal sacrifice called for on this day (Ex 20:8-11) just a day of rest and focus on our relationship to God.


I think you are correct that the root of this effort to apply the 4th commandment to week-day-one is that they are operating inside a framework that values all Ten Commandments.

There is a thread here where a poll was taken for viewers here - regarding that same subject. Very interesting how it came out.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=44748

(Though I must say - that thread ended in a very odd way)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Sgt. Fury]

I have never thought of Sunday as the "sabbath". It is simply the day on which we see the NT disciples meeting for worship. To my knowledge, there is no "sabbath" under the NT.

 

[TCGreek]

Are you saying that it should be a weekly memorial activity for us (7 day cycle of creation week) done on the actual Sabbath? If so what would we be doing "in memorial" of it? Recall that in Exodus 20 there is no animal sacrifice called for on this day (Ex 20:8-11) just a day of rest and focus on our relationship to God.

1. Today, this side of the cross, we don't have the same injunction to keep the Jewish Sabbath. However, if a person decides to observe it, then it is between him and God (Rom 14: "5. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord").

I think you are correct that the root of this effort to apply the 4th commandment to week-day-one is that they are operating inside a framework that values all Ten Commandments.

2. Yes, and I think we should all value the Ten Commandments, but what that should look like has been debating through the centuries not a few times.

There is a thread here where a poll was taken for viewers here - regarding that same subject. Very interesting how it came out.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=44748

(Though I must say - that thread ended in a very odd way)

in Christ,

Bob

3. I looked at the poll, and yes, the results were intriguing, but says little of what a person really believes about the Sabbath, since some think Sunday is the new Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

I have never thought of Sunday as the "sabbath".

I agree but as you can see from the link and the quotes there are a number of people here and in the past (Like Adam Clarke and D.L Moody that hold to the Ten Commandments as continued in the NT.

To my knowledge, there is no "sabbath" under the NT.

Is there a text says that the Creation Sabbath was abolished or that God is not going to have "All mankind come before Me to Worship from Sabbath to Sabbath" Is 66 - at any time after the cross?

(I suppose I coulda just said "text please" :type: )

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

2. Yes, and I think we should all value the Ten Commandments, but what that should look like has been debating through the centuries not a few times.

3. I looked at the poll, and yes, the results were intriguing, but says little of what a person really believes about the Sabbath, since some think Sunday is the new Sabbath.

That statement in itself is very useful and it takes a certain fork in the road. By holding to all Ten Commanments you have to either edit the 4th commandment or keep it in it's unchanged form. Which one do you choose?

I agree with you that in the poll we can not tell if the people who are holding to all Ten - (which must include the 4th) are really keeping the 4th in an "unedited form" or not.

Previously you stated that the 4th could not be edited/or changed. I agree with that.

Which leaves only two choices -- "A downsized to nine" solution (which the majority of those taking the poll did not seem to accept and which Moody and Clarke do not accept) -- or you have to choose an "All Ten - Unchanged and valid" solution as I do (which is another option they do not seem to be willing to take)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Are you saying that it should be a weekly memorial activity for us (7 day cycle of creation week) done on the actual Sabbath? If so what would we be doing "in memorial" of it? Recall that in Exodus 20 there is no animal sacrifice called for on this day (Ex 20:8-11) just a day of rest and focus on our relationship to God.

TCG
1. Today, this side of the cross, we don't have the same injunction to keep the Jewish Sabbath. However, if a person decides to observe it, then it is between him and God (Rom 14: "5. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord").

In Romans 7 and 1John 3:4 we see the point made that "Violation" of the law of God "is sin". In your solution above you appear to be saying that nine commandments are "law" as in "not up for debate" but the 4th commandment is "optional" and so breaking it does not matter.

In effect - your solution appears to be a "downsized to nine" solution - correct?

Did you notice D.L Moody's addressing that argument specifically at this link on this thread?
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1163824&postcount=186
If so - what did you think of his argument?


As for Romans 14 and it's application to the entire list of annual feast days in LEV 23 -- I would agree that they are optional --

Jamieson Fausset, Brown – on Romans 14

the Church here, in spite of thy censures.
5. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day--The supplement "alike" should be omitted, as injuring the sense.
Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind--be guided in such matters by conscientious conviction.
6. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it to the Lord--the Lord CHRIST, as before.
and he . . . not, to the Lord he doth not--each doing what he believes to be the Lord's will.
He that earth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks--The one gave thanks to God for the flesh which the other scrupled to use; the other did the same for the herbs to which, for conscience' sake, he restricted himself. From this passage about the observance of days, ALFORD unhappily infers that such language could not have been used if the sabbath law had been in force under the Gospel in any form. Certainly it could not, if the sabbath were merely one of the Jewish festival days; but it will not do to take this for granted merely because it was observed under the Mosaic economy. And certainly, if the sabbath was more ancient than Judaism; if, even under Judaism, it was enshrined among the eternal sanctities of the Decalogue, uttered, as no other parts of Judaism were, amidst the terrors of Sinai; and if the Lawgiver Himself said of it when on earth, "The Son of man is LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY" (see Mr 2:28) --it will be hard to show that the apostle must have meant it to be ranked by his readers among those vanished Jewish festival days, which only "weakness" could imagine to be still in force--a weakness which those who had more light ought, out of love, merely to bear with.
http://eword.gospelcom.net/comments/romans/jfb/romans14.htm

John Wesley admits that this is a reference to the Lev 23 list of annual feast days –

Wesley

Verse 5. One day above another - As new moons, and other Jewish festivals. Let every man be fully persuaded - That a thing is lawful, before he does it.

Verse 6. Regardeth it to the Lord - That is, out of a principle of conscience toward God. To the Lord he doth not regard it - He also acts from a principle of conscience. He that eateth not - Flesh. Giveth God thanks - For his herbs.
http://eword.gospelcom.net/comments/romans/wesley/romans14.htm

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I agree with Adam Clarke on the fact that the list of Annual Feast days given in Lev 23 were in fact optional for NT saints. So that when Paul argues that one "Regards one" in the list ABOVE the others while others regard them ALL - we are seeing individual selection of those list of days.

Adam Clark’s commentary

Chapter 14
In things indifferent, Christians should not condemn each other, 1. Particularly with respect to different kinds of food, 2-4. And the observation of certain days, 5,6. None of us should live unto himself, but unto Christ, who lived and died for us, 7-9. We must not judge each other; for all judgment belongs to God,

Verse 5. One man esteemeth one day above another
Perhaps the word ημεραν, day, is here taken for time, festival, and such like, in which sense it is frequently used. Reference is made here to the Jewish institutions, and especially their festivals; such as the passover, pentecost, feast of tabernacles, new moons, jubilee, Jew still thought these of moral obligation;.
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=ro&chapter=014

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I have never thought of Sunday as the "sabbath". It is simply the day on which we see the NT disciples meeting for worship. To my knowledge, there is no "sabbath" under the NT.

GE
Your statement is self-contradictory -- depending on what the meaning is for you, of the FACT, "It is simply the day on which we see the NT disciples meeting for worship". If this 'day' happened to be 'Sunday', then it, on strength of the fact, "It is simply the day on which we see the NT disciples meeting for worship", for you - as for the whole Church - should be, 'the sabbath'.
But now it so happened 'the Sabbath' (Seventh Day of the week) is simply the day on which we SEE, the NT disciples meeting for worship.