Why the teacher IS the authority in a class

[exscentric]

Originally Posted by exscentric
"If the teacher isn't the one in authority then, pray tell, who is?"

God I would hope. :thumbs:
-------------

Did you not know God exercises his authority through teachers? Surely you are aware of this...right? Remember the Bible verse..."all those in authority"

Do you see anywhere in the one sentance I typed where I was commenting on what God does through teachers? Simply answering your question.

Your reference below ASSUMES you have authority over a class. A reference that tells us God has given you authority over a class might be useful and more to the point.

“Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king” (I Peter 2:13-17).

 

[PeterM]

I supose I have been given liberty in this thread to give you a tongue lashing, and you have set yourself up to slap everyone in the face if you so desire.

Yet I will be gentle to some degree. This "rant" you have spent both time, thought, and energy on is probably, in my opinion, one of the greatest waste of your time. In my opinion, it is an utter display of your carnal, selfish, prideful, self-assertive, and arrogant nature. There exists nothing in this pathetic discouse an once of Christian love, mercy, kindness, or patience. It is devoid of the fruit of the Spirit of God and chok full of the depraved nature of man still abiding in you.

If, God forbid, Providence has provided even one pupil to sit under you dictorial instruction, I pray the Lord deliver those sheep from between your teeth. Go and learn what it means to be shepherd since you seem to be setting yourself up as one.

Now, my tone in this reply is harsher than in any reply I have made on the BB so far. If you think yourself a shepherd of God's inheritance, the venom, sarcasm, and lordship I detect in this rant of yours immediately reminded me of Eze 34.

"Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock. The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them. "

This discourse also reminded me of this verse,

1 Peter 5:2-3
"Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock."

Also,

1 John 1:27
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

Now this verse is not to deny teachers given to the Church. But they are gifts to the Body of the Christ, to build them up and strengthen them. This is done, by those whom the LORD sends, in all meekness, love, and humility.

But in your tone you seem to purport yourself as an apostle of Christ and command obedience to your feigned authority. Let none question thee! "Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks"

I say to you, thou "shepherd" of the sheep, get in your knees and gird thyself and wash the feet of thy brethren. This diatribe of yours was a waste of hot air and revealed your nature.

Great response!!! The OP would be quickly removed from any position of "authority" or teaching for that matter in the church I pastor. Whether it is Sunday School or any other teaching forum, compassion, generousity, with a genuine desire to invest into the lives of others make up good teachers. Bible knowledge and an ability to communicate can be learned.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Ah, here's where the discussion went!

Everyone has done such a good job, I don't believe there's much left to discuss, except:

Why Mr. M won't discuss the priesthood of the believer in the context of Sunday School?

 

[EdSutton]

Great response!!! The OP would be quickly removed from any position of "authority" or teaching for that matter in the church I pastor. Whether it is Sunday School or any other teaching forum, compassion, generousity, with a genuine desire to invest into the lives of others make up good teachers. Bible knowledge and an ability to communicate can be learned.

Outta' curiosity, wouldn't any "removal", such as this, be the same thing in "exercising" this supposed "authority", by any single individual??

I don't understand where the spiritual gift of pastor/teacher carries any such authority, either. Now if the church body decided this, that would be a different matter.

Sumpin' to do with being "Baptist", I think.

Ed

 

[rbell]

Reminds me of 1 Corinthians 13.

The old adage, "People don't care how much they know, until they know how much you care" also comes to mind.

I'm not advocating ignorant teachers, but I'm not too fond of mean ones, either.

 

[dan e.]

Where is Master M?

 

[Mr.M]

A teacher with true authority isn't one who is constantly reminding people he or she is in charge!

I'm the boss... I'm the boss... I'm the boss...

Sounds like a kindergartener having a temper tantrum.

People recognize authority, they don't need to be told...
People recoginized Jesus' authority, without him screaming... "I'm in authority"...

I will follow those in true authority given by God...
But not those posers that have to scream to get their way!

(BTW, Mr M.. my warning still stands from days before... I have no hesitation to hit the ! button, if you continue to badger the good posters on BB...especially the women!)

Pal, whatever your issues are attempting to intimidate someone with a threat is INAPPROPRIATE and your intimation regarding women is OUT OF LINE. You've been dealt with before and had to apologize to me and now here you go again...save your pretense for somone else and STAY ON TOPIC, quit making personal comments. Thank you.

 

[Mr.M]

Ah, here's where the discussion went!

Everyone has done such a good job, I don't believe there's much left to discuss, except:

Why Mr. M won't discuss the priesthood of the believer in the context of Sunday School?

What about the priesthood of the believer befuddles you and what about it do you need clarification from me? Please be specific and I will gladly respond. :thumbs:

 

[Mr.M]

Master M,

Let's say you have a young adult in your class who does not particularly learn well via your lecturing. Even if they take notes, their mind wanders and they cannot stay focused. They are figity, and may not be able to sit still for your entire lecture (a shock, I know). How would you "authoritatively" handle this?

What I'm getting at is people learn differently. Some, like the made up person in my scenario, are kinesthetic learners. I honestly doubt that everyone in a single room just by chance all learn the same way....ie. the way that suits your "teaching" style. It is the responsibility of the leader to get to know those in the group, and begin to understand how they learn. This involves actually knowing those people. If you aren't throwing the seed in the way they can catch it, my friend, they won't be catching any of it. Regurgitating your lectures is hardly learning.

You've got to work the soil before you can start scattering seed. I REALLY SUGGEST THIS BOOK: "The Dirt on Learning"

I see, let me INSULT Mr.M and then seriously recommend a book...hahahahaha Do you all even read what you write?

As long as a person is not disrupting the teaching of the teacher and the learning of other people (as determined by the teacher), personal idiosyncrasies are not the concern of the teacher. If the instructor determines someone's issues are disruptive then it needs addressed. A good student recognizes a master and a poor student is preoccupied with peripheral issues and attempts to focus attention on themselves and away from the communicator.

 

[Mr.M]

You reply to me, point by point as if I actually would to debate you. Nothing could be further from the truth. I wrote simply to rebuke you.

Like the good shepherd you are...a public rebuke...the very thing you claim to detest in "authoritarian tyrants". Could anyone write a better script? :laugh: :laugh:

 

[rbell]

What about the priesthood of the believer befuddles you and what about it do you need clarification from me? Please be specific and I will gladly respond. :thumbs:

You said earlier:

Does anyone say to the Master teacher who instructs in needlepoint, golf, mechanics, shoe tying and so on...WHO MADE YOU in charge and WHAT MAKES YOU think YOU have the answers? How can you teach me so AUTHORITATIVELY as if other ways aren't just as good? Who do YOU think you are? YOU are arrogant telling me in such a matter of fact way HOW something is properly done! Well guess who did develop such an attitude....the Pharisees! They HATED Jesus for such clear teaching and constantly correcting their error and ultimately paid the price for such audacity in teaching with authority as well as other false causes produce in the minds of the Pharisees and others, which He came to pay on our behalf...

That mindset goes against the priesthood of the believer. Besides, it's arrogant for anyone here to compare themself to Jesus, the true "Master Teacher."

But doing away w/priesthood of the believer makes for some great Catholic theology. The Council of Trent would be proud.

********

Two more things, regarding your posts:

1. You keep harping on "authority," and the importance of showing respect for those in authority. The BB mods & admins are in authority here...you were planning on practicing what you preached, no?
2. When everyone is telling you the same things regarding your posts (that you are coming across rude and mean-spirited, and you should show more grace and gentleness), perhaps everybody might not be wrong. Maybe listening to folks would be wise.

 

[Mr.M]

You said earlier:

That mindset goes against the priesthood of the believer. Besides, it's arrogant for anyone here to compare themself to Jesus, the true "Master Teacher."

But doing away w/priesthood of the believer makes for some great Catholic theology. The Council of Trent would be proud.

********

Two more things, regarding your posts:

1. You keep harping on "authority," and the importance of showing respect for those in authority. The BB mods & admins are in authority here...you were planning on practicing what you preached, no?
2. When everyone is telling you the same things regarding your posts (that you are coming across rude and mean-spirited, and you should show more grace and gentleness), perhaps everybody might not be wrong. Maybe listening to folks would be wise.

Who said anything about comparing themselves to Jesus...has it not dawned on you that it might be the severe reaction of hatred, protest and seeking to silence by some that is being compared to the Pharisees...who HATED genuine authority? Hmmmm?

Secondly, I have yet to discover anything I have posted denying or attempting to refute the Priesthood of the believer...unless of course you have faulty concepts and teachings about the doctrine of the Priesthood of the believer. But show me. If you are claiming that authoritative teaching that is concise and corrective is at odds with the Priesthood of the believer, you are in for a world of confusion. Surely you aren't suggesting that. Where is the Priesthood of the believer being violated? Be specific and then we can dissect and examine your claim to see if there is any merit.

By the way....you harp about listening to folks...well then listen to me...oh wait, I don't sing a chorus that agrees with you so that doesn't count :laugh: :laugh:

 

[rbell]

The entire premise goes against it!

• "Hierarchical authority."
• The idea of "shut up and listen. I've mastered this, and you haven't.
• The arrogance of "God's given me this, and you're out of line to question it."
• Comparing a teacher and those who question him/her...and then likening it to Jesus, and the Pharisees that second-guessed the Son of God. Bad analogy.
• Pretty much your whole OP, actually.

I'm not at all for someone coming into a class and starting division. But if a teacher is in error, or is not clear in what they are teaching...by all means, speak up.

 

[dan e.]

As long as a person is not disrupting the teaching of the teacher and the learning of other people (as determined by the teacher), personal idiosyncrasies are not the concern of the teacher. If the instructor determines someone's issues are disruptive then it needs addressed. A good student recognizes a master and a poor student is preoccupied with peripheral issues and attempts to focus attention on themselves and away from the communicator.

THis is the problem, your idea of if and how others are learning is flawed. You are determining based on the acceptance of your lecture. You have no clue about the learner, and how you, the "teacher", should lead accordingly.

A good student recognizes a master??? I'm going to take a wild guess....have you been teaching, but have failed to be recognized? You seem like someone who can't stand it when people don't pay attention to you. Seriously, are you lashing out because of lack of recognition?

 

[Mr.M]

The entire premise goes against it!

• "Hierarchical authority."
• The idea of "shut up and listen. I've mastered this, and you haven't.
• The arrogance of "God's given me this, and you're out of line to question it."
• Comparing a teacher and those who question him/her...and then likening it to Jesus, and the Pharisees that second-guessed the Son of God. Bad analogy.
• Pretty much your whole OP, actually.

I'm not at all for someone coming into a class and starting division. But if a teacher is in error, or is not clear in what they are teaching...by all means, speak up.

Okay, time to dissect and see if you have any merit in your claims.

[*]"Hierarchical authority."

Hierarchical authority refers to the actual authority inherent in the duties of a teacher. It is a structural authority. It is the authority of the teacher to control certain elements of a class, this is the nature of the role of a teacher. For example, the teacher begins and ends class, not the students, that is the function of the hierarchical authority of the teacher. That in now way interferes with the Priesthood of the believer. It is simply an organizational position. Your claim is unmerited.

*The idea of "shut up and listen. I've mastered this, and you haven't"

You cannot produce any sentence or statement like that I have said. The best one can do is misrepresent something I have said but you cannot provide such a quote. Your claim is unmerited.

*The arrogance of "God's given me this, and you're out of line to question it."

You cannot produce any sentence or statement like that I have said. The best one can do is misrepresent something I have said but you cannot provide such a quote. Your claim is unmerited.

Comparing a teacher and those who question him/her...and then likening it to Jesus, and the Pharisees that second-guessed the Son of God. Bad analogy.

While I read what you wrote here, you have failed completely to demonstrate how this relates to your claim it interferes with the Priesthood of the believer, even though what you say, once again, is a MISCHARACTERIZATION and MISREPRESENTATION of what I have said. Your claim is unmerited.

Now if you can go back and provide a quote with an explanation specifically HOW it interferes with the Priesthood of the believer we can continue. Right now your objections are unmerited.

 

[tinytim]

Pal, whatever your issues are attempting to intimidate someone with a threat is INAPPROPRIATE and your intimation regarding women is OUT OF LINE. You've been dealt with before and had to apologize to me and now here you go again...save your pretense for somone else and STAY ON TOPIC, quit making personal comments. Thank you.

If you would stop talking down to us poor dumb souls, like you are God's gift to BB, then people would take you seriously...

Actually I agree with a lot of things you have said on this board... but the way you said it is wrong....

Listen folks, We are ALL wrong, Mr. M is right...

There, There, does that make you feel better.
You have attacked women on this board, And I have not apologized for standing up for others.

Man, it was quiet here for a while!


Back on topic...
Yes, teachers should have authority in the classroom...
But the teacher, using his authority, can choose to teach in many ways...

No surprise, my class sits around tables, and we discuss the scriptures...
We learn from each other, because not one of us is perfect...

 

[rbell]

Mr M, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I feel the general thrust of your OP goes against the priesthood of the believer, as it puts the "student" in a role of accepting, without question, the teacher's subject matter.

You're not going to agree, and I know that.

The last three statements you supposedly refuted as "unmerited"...you dismissed those claims as they were not direct quotes. You are correct in that they were not direct quotes...but IMO they were very accurate in describing what you were attempting to convey in your post. It was that underlying attitude that goes against the Priesthood of the Believer.

 

[Mr.M]

Mr M, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I feel the general thrust of your OP goes against the priesthood of the believer, as it puts the "student" in a role of accepting, without question, the teacher's subject matter.

You're not going to agree, and I know that.

The last three statements you supposedly refuted as "unmerited"...you dismissed those claims as they were not direct quotes. You are correct in that they were not direct quotes...but IMO they were very accurate in describing what you were attempting to convey in your post. It was that underlying attitude that goes against the Priesthood of the Believer.

When you are willing to quote me directly then I will take more serious your claim that I have said something contrary to the doctrine of the Priesthood of the believer.

Regarding the student accepting without question...again, I never proposed that and you will not find a quote by me stating such.

I am not a mind reader but I am going to guess since I have no further information or specifics by you and if I am wrong, tell me but I have to guess now, but what I am going to guess is that you are concluding that is what I believe based on some faulty assumptions.

The student is suppose to question as much as he can so he can eliminate faulty thinking. What he doesn't have the right to do is usurp the AUTHORITY of the teacher. Possibly you believe that I think the AUTHORITY that is inherent in the role of the teacher is one that automatically assume correctness. I never said that either and no one can quote me saying that. I stated the teacher must be the master who can correct faulty thinking...I never even implied he knows or or should assume to know all. No master teacher knows all (save our Lord). Nevertheless he must be a master. Students should question, that is their duty, it is part of discovery.

And if a student concludes that a teacher is wrong too often then it is the job of the STUDENT to find another teacher under which to learn or determine it is time for HIM to begin teaching as a master. But a direct assault on the teacher in an attempt to overthrow by means of intellectual or academic superiority is an assualt on the divine order of authority. It is rebellion and unacceptable. That is his class, not yours. And if he needs removing, those placed in charge of that should make that decision, not a student and not by attempting to humiliate or disrespect a teacher, again that is opposing genuine authority and there is NOTHING Christian about that.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Okay Mr. M, lets just see if we can figure out why folks seem to be having problems with your opinion. What you say is an opinion correct? You don't have any special dispesation from God that the rest of us don't know about, do you? (just making sure)

Instead of bothering with people whose ears are so tender they can only endure a chorus that agrees with them, I offer to those more seasoned a thread for debate.

Words in red: You don't think this comment is just a little confrontational?

Words in blue: You've been here how long? Methinks you should take a long look at the join dates for those you are debating before making off the cuff comments like this.

So here we come to the Bible and Christianity and it seems we have a very big case of rebellion among those who would in every other area of life learn with a master teacher. The qualified teacher will teach with mastery and authority. Just like in every area of life he should be able to clearly and concisely communicate the truths of his subject matter and aid in the enlightenment of the students. The students should arrive respectful of his academic authority and his hierarchical authority.

Words in red: What makes for a qualified teacher that we should respect? You've been asked this question before. Should we respect a teacher who tells us to sit down, shut up and listen? Before you ask for a quote that illustrates where I get the idea you want us to all sit down and shut up, I'll give you one:

I am always fascinated with the results of combining naivety and egos regarding learning the Word of God and the things people dream up to stroke their need for dominance, influence, opinion and significance.

With almost every subject in life, learning is based on master/student learning. The teacher is the master and the students are there to learn. Abandoning this formula for something more egotistically satisfying is frankly, selfish.

Words in blue: What academic authority? What heirachical authority?

Sunday School teachers are mere church members. Hopefully, they are members who have some experience in Biblical themes, but this is not always the case. Sometimes the teachers are learning at the same time as the "students". There is a reason why SS members are called members!

What about the priesthood of the believer befuddles you and what about it do you need clarification from me? Please be specific and I will gladly respond. :thumbs:

Hmmmm, I know exactly what I believe on the subject of of priesthood of the believer. What I'd like to know is how YOU believe that the priesthood of the believer should impact the "authority" a teacher believes he/she holds over a particular group. Should the group not question things a teacher teaches that may not be correct? The view you seem to be giving of an "authoritative teacher" is of a teacher that cannot be wrong so how dare we question him/her?

 

[dan e.]

Oh Mr.M......*sigh*......oh well.