Why the usual tired old "Darby" rebuttal can RIP....

Link, good response and good questions for Ed!

 

It's pretty clear that dispensational premillennialism has recently reached its zenith among a certain subsection of Christians with the Left Behind Series. I predict that in twenty years that dispensational premillennialism, as we know it today, will no longer be the "hot stuff" it is with this subsection of Christians. They will either have greatly modified it or migrated to a different eschatology.

 

Link: "Do you believe in two comings of Christ or three,
or more? I believe in a Second Coming, but I see
no evidence that Christ will come to the earth three times."

Show me the evidence that Jesus who is Christ and God is limited
to one and only one return.

Link: "It seems to me that you are reading these passages
and fitting them into your pre-trib prophecy chart."

It seems to me you have been unable to take a stand
and if you ever do, you will be reading the passages to
make the scriptures fit your stand (if any).

Link: "I want the scripture that sets the rapture 7 years before the Second Coming."

I've never withheld this information.
The PTB (powers that be) in this place really get upset when
i keep repeating the same posts.

Nevertheless, i shall repeat again this.
(can't you find it using the search facility here?)

---------------------------------

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The timeline according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The timeline according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The timeline according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, i'll still hope in the pretribulation rapture
as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.
-----------------------------------------
BTW, John Darby did not use these three
passages as pretribulation passages.
I am not a disciple of John Darby.


BTW, Tim LaHaye of Left Behind Series
does not use these three passages to
show the pretrib rapture from scripture.
(as best i recall, he may use the
Revelation 4:1 argument?)
I am not a disciple of Tim LaHaye or any
other millionare. I'm a disciple of
Jesus, who is my Master and Savior.

 

Concerning the previous pre-written post and
the Search facility

Searching for:
MK=millinnial
in this forum i find:

Rapture = Second Coming? December 09, 2004 - yes, this writing
Tribulation November 24, 2004 - nope, something else
Rapture: hocus-pocus March 03, 2004 - yes, this writing

 

I am not going to search through my 24 printed Bible versions for this rendition of
this verse. Please, when you quote
scripture tell me which version of the Bible.
Thank you.

 

I am not going to search through my 24 printed Bible versions for this rendition of
this verse. Please, when you quote
scripture tell me which version of the Bible.
Thank you. </font>[/QUOTE]Its from the KJV [1769 I believe]. However just because its from the KJV does not make it any less factual. As I have stated many times Darbyism is unbiblical and when Jesus Christ returns there will be a General Resurrection and Judgment, no pre-trib rapture, no 1000 year earthly reign. If only people would throw away their Darbyite bibles [Scofield, Ryrie].

Also you state that 90% of Baptists are pre-trib. Any proof of that? Where I grew up all the folks thought that the only people who believed in the 100 year reign were Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

In response to Ed Edwards,

Maybe we could just discuss the verses you specifically feel set the timing of the rapture at before the 7 year period. I believe in the rapture and resurrection. I just do not see anything indicating the timing happens before the 7 year period.

You refer to so many passages, many of which reinforce my belief that the rapture does not occur before this 7 year period. Can you show the verses that put the rapture at that point in time, and then either quote the verse and give an explanation, or else refer to the part of the verse you think supports your point, and then give an explanation.

The Lord will return with armies/his holy ones. In Matthew 25:31, Christ says, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:" So we can expect Christ to come with 'angels' which is normally what we would think of when we hear of the hosts of heaven. Angels are 'holy' and we might consider them to be saints.

But the Bible also indicates that Christ will bring those who 'sleep in Jesus' with Him, as you point out. You use this passage to argue for a pre-tribulational rapture. But look at the timing of the rapture based on the passage.


I Thes.4
13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


The Lord will DESCEND. The dead and those who are still alive will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. As John said, referring to Daniel, 'Behold He cometh with clouds.' So clouds are associated with the coming of the Lord.

The most straightforward interpretation of all this is that the saints go up to be with the Lord, and since the Lord is descending--coming for the second time, they come with Him.

Do you believe in two comings of Christ or three, or more? I believe in a Second Coming, but I see no evidence that Christ will come to the earth three times.

Paul puts this really simply in I Corinthians 15

22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christs people will be resurrection at the coming of Christ. That is what Paul teaches here.

YOU wrote,

***7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)****


How do you get 'No Signs precede the Rapture.' The Scriptures you quote argue for the opposite of what you are saying. Why do you put those signs as signs of the Scond coming and not before the rapture? I do not see anything in the passages you quote that justify the separation.

It seems to me that you are reading these passages and fitting them into your pre-trib prophecy chart. That is not what I want. I want evidence that the prophecy chart is accurate. I want the scripture that sets the rapture 7 years before the Second Coming.

Let us look at one of the passages you referred to:

II Thess 2


1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6. And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,?


Paul explains to the believers that they should not think that 'the day of Christ' is at hand, because it would not happen before the man of sin was revealed. Notice
the connection between the coming of Christ, the rapture, and the day of Christ. Paul speaks of it as if it all happens together. Notice that the wicked one is destroyed at the ___coming of Christ.____ NOT 7 years after it.

Take a close look at these two verses and notice the events that happen at Christ's coming, according to Paul:

I Thes 2:9
8. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

and
I Corinthians 15
23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


The wicked one is destroyed at Christ's coming. They that are Christ's are made alive at His coming. Notice there is no talk of a Third Coming of Christ in scripture.

How do you explain these passages? If the dead are raised at Christ's coming, and the wicked one is destroyed at Christ's coming, how can you hold to the pre-trib rapture theory.

Also, please point out the verses that you believe specifically point to a pretribulation rapture. I just can't find any good solid scriptural evidence, especially in light of what Paul wrote to the contrary. I was taught pre-trib growing up, but when I studied the passages, I could find none of them that said that the rapture would occur before the tribulation. Since there were saints in the Tribulation, I concluded that I had no basis for believing in a pre-trib rapture. As I read these statements of Paul, my beliefs were confirmed.

 

Ed Edwards,

The problem is, those verses do not prove your point. You can show that Christ returns with saints, but you cannot show that the saints had already been with Him for 7 years. I am looking for vereses that prove the 7 year pre-tribulational rapture, not just verses about the rapture and the second coming. We both agree on these things. I am looking specifically for the verses that support your time table. You are just quoting vereses and telling where _you_ put them in on your time table, not showing where you get the time table from scripture.

Btw, what does it matter what translation I use? Generally, I am using the KJV unless I say otherwise since that is what I can get ahold of easily on my PC.

Sorry everyone about the double post.

 

OReg,

Matt 27:52 clearly says “many bodies of the saints which slept arose”. No clear statement of bodies? How can you get any more clear. The statement I quoted was “First means FIRST, the INITIAL ONE. Also there has been ONLY ONE resurrection to date...”

I do not question whether Jesus was the “first begotten of the dead” but whether He was the ONLY ONE. Ho much clearer can it be? “Many bodies of the saints which slept arose.” And then you accuse “Darbyites” of not reading carefully? Perhaps I should refer to those who take your position as “Alexandrites” since Origen was one of the earliest identifiable allergorists who refused to accept the Word of God prima facie.

The fact that the saved are not under the power of the second death does not make the point you seem to be arguing in Rev 20:6. It is like saying “The Jones family has a blue Chevrolet. Oh, look there is a blue Chevy, it must be the Jones family.” Nothing in the text argues or is consistent with the limitations you have set.

Re your statement that “the Book of Revelation was written for the comfort of the First Century Church as well as the Church of all time. It wasn't written for the unbelieving Jews.” I do not find evidence of general disagreement with your statement among most dispensationalists, and I have read most of them pretty extensively. Of course on the other hand, I do not find most Covenant Theologians arguing against the resurrection of the saints in Matthew 27 either.

RJP

 

Link: "Btw, what does it matter what translation I use? Generally, I am using the KJV unless I say otherwise since that is what I can get ahold of easily on my PC."

It does not matter which transaltion you use.
I just wanted you to share it with me each time
you post a scripture. Thank you.

BTW, my asking people to post the scriptutre is
a form of testing the spirits. The key verse is:

Proverbs 15:10 (KJV):
Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way:
and he that hateth reproof shall die.

The skinny spirits cannot bear reproof and think
up excuses NOT to comply with a simple and reasonable
request. The fat spirits are eager to correct and
get on with the discussion.

Not every passage gives all details, not every witness
says the same exact thing (if they did there would have
been a conspiracy). For example this passage:

Daniel 12:1-3 (HCSB):

At that time
Michael the great prince
who stands watch over your people will rise up.
There will be a time of distress
such as never has occurred
since nations came into being until that time.
But at that time all your people
who are found written in the book will escape.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust
of the earth will awake,
some to eternal life,
and some to shame and eternal contempt.
3 Those who are wise will shine
like the bright expanse [of the heavens],
and those who lead many to righteousness,
like the stars forever and ever.

speaks of one general resurrection after one
"time of distress". In Revelation 20 we find
two different types of resurrections held 1,000
years apart:

First resurrection - the resurrection of the just (through Christ)
Second resurrection - the resurreciton of the unjust

BTW, both these resurrections in Revelation follow
the discussion of a "time of distress" namely that
disucssed in Revelation chapters 4-19.

Note in both places i said the discussion of the
resurreciton(s) is after the discussion of the
tribualtion, not that the resurrections are after
the tribulation. For example, i think it is in Matthew 13
Jesus gives a parable where it is mentioned the unjust
are harvested and burned before the just are harvested
and put in God's barn. This contradicts the order
of Revelation 20 unless you realise that the Matthew 13
account is a parable, a metaphor.

BTW, there is nothing in the term "first" or "second" that
has anything exclusive to do with "one" or "two".
In other words, one can have two firsts and one second.

 

Ed Edwards,
But all of this still misses the point. Where is the scripture that places a resurrection before the 7 year period? I can't find any. I couldn't find any in the list you gave. Could you refer to the verse that specifies the time, in your opinion, and then explain how you think this verse specifies that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture and/or resurrection. We both agree that there will be a rapture and a resurrection. I just want you to show scripture to support the idea that it will occur before the resurrection. Do you have any scripture, or do you just believe in a pre-tribulation rapture without evidence?

I have shown you from the Thessalonians passage why I believe that the rapture occurs at the Second Coming, at approximately the time the man of sin is destroyed. I would appreciate a response to this post.

 

Dispensationalism [or Darbyism] is already changing. There is a movement called "progressive dispensationalism" which, departing from classic Darbyism, is very similar to covenant or historic premillennialism. Two professors at Dallas Theological Seminary [Bock and Blaising] have published two books promoting progressive dispensationalism: Dispensationalism, Israel, and the Church and Progressive Disepnsationalism.

 

You need to read more carefully what I said. There is no indication in Scripture that these Saints had "Resurrection", that is glorified bodies and that they did not re-enter their graves. Lazarus came out of the grave but he died again!

Call me what you will. No one, even the Darbyites, take all Scripture at "face value". Please tell me whether you take John 6:53 at face value?

You have succeeded in completely confusing me here!

Do you find any arguing that the Saints in Matthew 27 ascended to heaven?

 

Link: " Notice there is no talk of a Third Coming of Christ in scripture"

Yes, there is no mention of a "third coming of Christ".
Neither is there any mention of a "Blessed Trinity" but i
believe there to be one.


Link: "If the dead are raised at Christ's coming,
and the wicked one is destroyed at Christ's coming,
how can you hold to the pre-trib rapture theory.

Here is my writing FIVE RESURRECTIONS.
There is no mention of "five resurrections" in the Scripture.
There is no mention of "four general resurrections"
in the scripture. However, these resurrecitons are
different. God left it to us to count comings
or count resurrections.

-----------------------------------

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
Yisarel passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 26 May 2004;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque
-----------------------------------

To refute these you must show a scriptue that says
resurrections #3 and #4 (from my list) are exactly
the same or though they are different, they both
take place the same 8-hour work day.

 

The pre-trib resurrections are staged.

John only mentions two: the first of the good and the second of the damned. We all agree that the resurrection of the damned is at the end of the 1000 years.

 

Southern Baptist leadership is embracing it with open arms.

 

Actually the resurrection of both the saved and lost is at the end of the 1000 years!

 

Southern Baptist leadership is embracing it with open arms. </font>[/QUOTE]Dispensationalism [Darbyism if you prefer] teaches that an intrinsic and enduring distinction exists between Israel and the Church. “The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.” [Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism ] Charles C. Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism writes about the above statement [page 39]: “This is probably the most basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist, and it is undoubtedly the most practical and conclusive. The one who fails to distinguish Israel and the Church consistently will inevitably not hold to dispensational distinctives; and the one who does will.”

The Southern Baptist Faith and Message [Section VI] adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 states:

“The New Testament also speaks of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

It seems, therefore, that the Baptist Faith and Message is at odds with the basic tenent of dispensational [Darbyite] theology.

 

Classical dispensationalism would have the technical difference with them. However, the classical side has no monopoly on dispensationalism.

 

tee hee no we don't.
Here is a quick outline of what some folks belive:

---------------------------

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues &lt;-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib pre-mill outline:

0. church age continues &lt;-- you are here
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib a-mill outline:

0. church age continues - is the same as: &lt;-- you are here
2. Tribulation time - is the same as: &lt;-- you are here
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom &lt;-- you are here
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
5. new heaven & new earth

Peterist a-mill outline:

0. church age continues &lt;-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection &lt;done happened
2. Tribulation time &lt;-- or maybe you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event &lt;done happend
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom &lt;done happened
5. new heaven & new earth &lt;-- or maybe you are here

Ed recommends the pretrib pre-mill
view as aligning most nearly with Holy Scripture.
Ed recommends:
get Rapture Ready!
Stay Rapture Ready!