WHY Universal Reconciliation is wrong ?

[dan p]

Hi to all , and this position , that there is such a thing as Universal Reconciliation can easily be proven wrong .

There are some who say #1 , that ALL l will be eventually saved , Like PURGATORY .

#2 , AND some also say that fallen angels and Lucifer will also be saved !

Some like to quote Col 1:20 , " and by Him to reconcile ALL THINGS to , Himself , by Him , whether things on Earth or thingd in Heaven , having made peace through the blood of His cross .

There are 45 verses where Paul uses nthis pharse " all things " .

The Key verse is TA PANTA and a proper understanding will keep all from this Heresy , that all will be saved .

If all will be saved , why preach , witness , give to the church , give to missionaries and etc , etc .

But Col 1:20 DOES NOT TEACH THIS .

" ALL THINGS " which is the Greek word PANTA , is NOT in the Greek text .

Rather , it is TA PANTA which means " the all things " SPECIFIC THINGS , and that is in the Greek text . It is thses things that are going to be reconciled to to the Lord Jesus Christ .

So , in Col 1:20 , it is the Body of Christ that is MEANT by " the all things"
, those members who have died and are in heaven , as well as those who are still alive on earth .

Christ came in human flesh to die for the human race not born as an angel to save fallen angels .

For those that do not understand the Greek Article can google and see for yoursleves how important it is .

 

[lori4dogs]

Purgatory has NOTHING to do with 'all being saved'. YEESH! That is as bad as saying that Purgatory is a 'second chance' to be saved.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Purgatory has NOTHING to do with 'all being saved'.

That is not true and you know it. Purgatory is essential in the Roman CAtholic view of salvation as it is necessary to make a person acceptable for entrance into heaven. Purgatory is nothing less than a limited version of hell to purge that person from their sins so as to be fit to enter heaven. If the person was fit to enter heaven based upon what they believe and did in this life there would be no purgatory but simply entrance into heaven.

 

[DHK]

Universalism is a slap in the face of Christ. It is the ultimate insult. It tells Him that all that he suffered; his pain, and his death itself was all in vain. He didn't have to come to this earth, be born of a virgin, live as a man, and die, be buried, and rise again. None of that was needful for our salvation, for all will be saved anyway. God was a fool the universalist says. He sent his Son all for nought. He didn't think things through. He did things mindlessly, without thinking as any fool would. The above describes the God of the universalist.

 

[lori4dogs]

That is not true and you know it. Purgatory is essential in the Roman CAtholic view of salvation as it is necessary to make a person acceptable for entrance into heaven. Purgatory is nothing less than a limited version of hell to purge that person from their sins so as to be fit to enter heaven. If the person was fit to enter heaven based upon what they believe and did in this life there would be no purgatory but simply entrance into heaven.

Purgatory is not a PLACE, it is a process (theosis) and a person is either saved in this life or is not. Salvation is NOT determined by Purgatory. Please don't turn this into yet another thread on Purgatory. It has been discussed ad nauseum on this board. I was simply stating that Purgatory has nothing to do with Universalism. If you want to know what Catholics actually believe about Purgatory, I suggest you go back and read one of the countless threads on this board. Many of them before you ever started to post on the BB.

 

[DHK]

Purgatory is not a PLACE, it is a process (theosis) and a person is either saved in this life or is not. Salvation is NOT determined by Purgatory. Please don't turn this into yet another thread on Purgatory. It has been discussed ad nauseum on this board. I was simply stating that Purgatory has nothing to do with Universalism. If you want to know what Catholics actually believe about Purgatory, I suggest you go back and read one of the countless threads on this board. Many of them before you ever started to post on the BB.

It is a place Lori. I can quote to you many sources for that. However, the concept that those with mortal sin go straight to hell, and those with venial sin pay for it in purgatory gives credence to your view that it is for what the RCC would call "saved," though an evangelical may not look at it that way. If they are saved, then why are they still paying for their sin?

 

[lori4dogs]

Universalism is a slap in the face of Christ. It is the ultimate insult. It tells Him that all that he suffered; his pain, and his death itself was all in vain. He didn't have to come to this earth, be born of a virgin, live as a man, and die, be buried, and rise again. None of that was needful for our salvation, for all will be saved anyway. God was a fool the universalist says. He sent his Son all for nought. He didn't think things through. He did things mindlessly, without thinking as any fool would. The above describes the God of the universalist.

Most universalists I've known do not believe in the Atonement to begin with. To quote one universalist -Rev. Jeffrey Johns-“This (the Atonement) is repulsive as well as nonsensical. It makes God sound like a psychopath. If a human behaved like this we’d say that they were a monster.”

 

[DHK]

Most universalists I've known do not believe in the Atonement to begin with. To quote one universalist -Rev. Jeffrey Johns-“This (the Atonement) is repulsive as well as nonsensical. It makes God sound like a psychopath. If a human behaved like this we’d say that they were a monster.”

Schizophrenic to say the least.

 

[lori4dogs]

Schizophrenic to say the least.

Once you start diluting God’s Word .... anything can be justified by the interpretation of one’s own ‘truth’.

 

[Benoni]

I bet you all started this all for me. Maybe we can get down some good scriptural debate instead of out right un-christian personal attacks.

 

[targus]

If the person was fit to enter heaven based upon what they believe and did in this life there would be no purgatory but simply entrance into heaven.

Be careful - it sounds like you are flirting with a works based salvation model.

 

[Benoni]

Hi to all , and this position , that there is such a thing as Universal Reconciliation can easily be proven wrong .

There are some who say #1 , that ALL l will be eventually saved , Like PURGATORY .

Amen. The Catholic had it right for once. God's fire is spiritual in nature not literal.

#2 , AND some also say that fallen angels and Lucifer will also be saved ![/QUOTE

Attually Satan is not Lucifer.

Some like to quote Col 1:20 , " and by Him to reconcile ALL THINGS to , Himself , by Him , whether things on Earth or thingd in Heaven , having made peace through the blood of His cross .

Does not reconcile mean to rise?

There are 45 verses where Paul uses nthis pharse " all things " .

The Key verse is TA PANTA and a proper understanding will keep all from this Heresy , that all will be saved .

If all will be saved , why preach , witness , give to the church , give to missionaries and etc , etc .

But Col 1:20 DOES NOT TEACH THIS .

" ALL THINGS " which is the Greek word PANTA , is NOT in the Greek text .

Rather , it is TA PANTA which means " the all things " SPECIFIC THINGS , and that is in the Greek text . It is thses things that are going to be reconciled to to the Lord Jesus Christ .

So , in Col 1:20 , it is the Body of Christ that is MEANT by " the all things"
, those members who have died and are in heaven , as well as those who are still alive on earth .

Christ came in human flesh to die for the human race not born as an angel to save fallen angels .

For those that do not understand the Greek Article can google and see for yoursleves how important it is .

Wow this is is weird doctrine. Did anyone mention fallen angel? Satan is going to Tartarus.

 

[Benoni]

Purgatory has NOTHING to do with 'all being saved'. YEESH! That is as bad as saying that Purgatory is a 'second chance' to be saved.

All will go thought God's purifing fires; in the end all flesh will see the salvation of God,

 

[Benoni]

That is not true and you know it. Purgatory is essential in the Roman CAtholic view of salvation as it is necessary to make a person acceptable for entrance into heaven. Purgatory is nothing less than a limited version of hell to purge that person from their sins so as to be fit to enter heaven. If the person was fit to enter heaven based upon what they believe and did in this life there would be no purgatory but simply entrance into heaven.

Doctor. Is not the word hell pagan?

The word hell it is a Teutonic pagan word which comes from a multiple of pagan places. I do believe in the three Greek words Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus, and the Hebrew Sheol; but they simple mean the place of the dead.


New Testament reference by Ballantine (1934) which contain footnotes, marginal readings and appendages which point out that several key Greek and Hebrew words regarding Hell have been MIStranslated by such Bible versions as the King James Bible.

This is one of your scholars not one of mine.

I have a list of Bibles which show the translations that contain the word Hell as well as the ones that don’t in the text is NOT exhaustive--we are discovering more translations all the time in which the translators did not feel justified in using the Teutonic pagan word Hell to translate the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek words Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus.

The word hell is not in Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic the language the Bible was written in; but it comes from an Angle Saxon word “hel” meaning to bury. It is more then a mis-translation it a premeditated deliberate assault on scripture to in introduce the Teutonic pagan word

So why do you believe God would do such a evil thing to billions of his creation?

You mention Gehenna.

Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the gospel. This is the word the fundamental preachers love to use to burn up the sinner. They are the first to yell foul if something does not fit in context; BUT: Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; a place of constant burning of refuge. Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified bf God’s holy judgment. This word is used not for sinner, murders or liars; it is used with the word “BROTHER”.

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna) fire.


Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature, it is the reaping of what Isreal had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that He is the only God, there is no other like Him.


Tar-ta-rus (tart rs) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1 an infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils not people. (mentioned only once in the Bible)

Ha-des (hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] 1 Gr. Myth. a) the home of the dead, beneath the earth b) the god of the underworld 2 Bible the state or resting place of the dead: name used in some modern translations of the New Testament. Did you know the Greeks have a temple in honor of the God of death ‘Hades”.

She-ol (eol) [[Heb shaal , to dig]] a place in the depths of the earth conceived of as the dwelling of the dead Note: translated in KJV about haft of scriptures as hell, the other haft as grave

 

[Benoni]

Most universalists I've known do not believe in the Atonement to begin with. To quote one universalist -Rev. Jeffrey Johns-“This (the Atonement) is repulsive as well as nonsensical. It makes God sound like a psychopath. If a human behaved like this we’d say that they were a monster.”

Maybe you know no Christian Universalist which has nothing to do with Unitarian Universalist.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Be careful - it sounds like you are flirting with a works based salvation model.

Fitness for heaven is based upon the imputed righteousness of Christ completed in glorification not according to "the law of works" (Rom. 3:27) which is defined by Scripture to be justification "according to thy works" (Rom. 2:6).

 

[Jedi Knight]

Maybe you know no Christian Universalist which has nothing to do with Unitarian Universalist.

Universalist is not Christian at all. Some proclaim the door is alot wider than what God says. Luke 13:24 Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

 

[lori4dogs]

Maybe you know no Christian Universalist which has nothing to do with Unitarian Universalist.

The Rev. Jeffrey Johns is no Unitarian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_John

 

[Dr. Walter]

Are not the words Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday all pagan derivitives and glorify false gods. However, if I were a betting man (and I am not) I would bet you still use all these pagan words that give glory to pagan gods - don't you????

So what if "hell" is of pagan derivitive, it is an apt term to describe "hades" the temporay abode of unregenerated damned spirits of men while Gehenna is the eternal abode of unregenerated damned spirits of men and angels.

I am not entering into a debate with you because it is plain to see that it is a worthless attempt. You are not interested in truth at all but in defending your unbiblcial dogma at any cost. will let others beat their head against your nonsense:BangHead:

Doctor. Is not the word hell pagan?

The word hell it is a Teutonic pagan word which comes from a multiple of pagan places. I do believe in the three Greek words Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus, and the Hebrew Sheol; but they simple mean the place of the dead.


New Testament reference by Ballantine (1934) which contain footnotes, marginal readings and appendages which point out that several key Greek and Hebrew words regarding Hell have been MIStranslated by such Bible versions as the King James Bible.

This is one of your scholars not one of mine.

I have a list of Bibles which show the translations that contain the word Hell as well as the ones that don’t in the text is NOT exhaustive--we are discovering more translations all the time in which the translators did not feel justified in using the Teutonic pagan word Hell to translate the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek words Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus.

The word hell is not in Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic the language the Bible was written in; but it comes from an Angle Saxon word “hel” meaning to bury. It is more then a mis-translation it a premeditated deliberate assault on scripture to in introduce the Teutonic pagan word

So why do you believe God would do such a evil thing to billions of his creation?

You mention Gehenna.

Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the gospel. This is the word the fundamental preachers love to use to burn up the sinner. They are the first to yell foul if something does not fit in context; BUT: Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; a place of constant burning of refuge. Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified bf God’s holy judgment. This word is used not for sinner, murders or liars; it is used with the word “BROTHER”.

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna) fire.


Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature, it is the reaping of what Isreal had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that He is the only God, there is no other like Him.


Tar-ta-rus (tart rs) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1 an infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils not people. (mentioned only once in the Bible)

Ha-des (hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] 1 Gr. Myth. a) the home of the dead, beneath the earth b) the god of the underworld 2 Bible the state or resting place of the dead: name used in some modern translations of the New Testament. Did you know the Greeks have a temple in honor of the God of death ‘Hades”.

She-ol (eol) [[Heb shaal , to dig]] a place in the depths of the earth conceived of as the dwelling of the dead Note: translated in KJV about haft of scriptures as hell, the other haft as grave

 

[lori4dogs]

Maybe you know no Christian Universalist which has nothing to do with Unitarian Universalist.

You can call yourself Christian Universalists, Biblical Universalists, or even Evangelical Universalists, it is still heretical and condemned by the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Anglican Communions as well as the vast majority of Protestant denominations. Even though it can be traced back to Origen of Alexandria, universalism really developed out of the Protestant Reformation when all doctrines and practices of the RCC were examined.