WHY Universal Reconciliation is wrong ?

[Thinkingstuff]

Thinking Stuff...

For some strange reason you are trying to use little linguistic mumbo jumbo games on us with your responses.

Why? are you a Catholic?

DHK and I are ex-Catholics. We cant be fooled. We were properly taught by the priests and nuns who taught us the wicked false teachings and idolatries of the Church of Rome.

We are now born again and know the truth.

As I have explained many many many many many many times I am an ex Catholic. Unfortunatley, in some ways my Family is not the run of the mill Catholic family. They actually know Catholic Doctrine and I have been arguing with them ever since I left the Catholic Church 25 years ago. Because of it. I actually know what the catholic church actually believes rather than the condenced format most protestants hold to from years of misinformation, to outright lies from sensationalist. I've used no mumbo jumbo but quoted their source text directly. Because I have the intelligence to 1) accurately describe what it is they believe 2) I can argue it with out throwing in nonsence view which can and are easily dismissed because they "don't believe that anyway". Often Catholics have the same view that Christians do when muslims argue against them.

For instance a muslim will say you believe such and such when in fact you don't. How do you respond? Well you say "we don't believe that" And when they are able to accurately describe what it is you believe then you can have a real debate. Same thing here.

 

[RAdam]

I disagree. Some men are very rebelious.

Every single man is rebellious. But God is greater than man. When the Son of God speaks to the dead sinner, the dead sinner lives. John 5:25

 

[DHK]

As I have explained many many many many many many times I am an ex Catholic. Unfortunatley, in some ways my Family is not the run of the mill Catholic family. They actually know Catholic Doctrine and I have been arguing with them ever since I left the Catholic Church 25 years ago. Because of it. I actually know what the catholic church actually believes rather than the condenced format most protestants hold to from years of misinformation, to outright lies from sensationalist. I've used no mumbo jumbo but quoted their source text directly. Because I have the intelligence to 1) accurately describe what it is they believe 2) I can argue it with out throwing in nonsence view which can and are easily dismissed because they "don't believe that anyway". Often Catholics have the same view that Christians do when muslims argue against them.

Truthfully, I don't have to know a thing about another's religion. What I do have to know is the Bible. No matter what religious person I witness to I must have a good working knowledge of the Bible.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

I can give an answer (defense) without studying their beliefs. Many missionaries have been put in that position. The gospel is not one of retreat and defend. It is a message of go forth and preach.

A J.W. came to my door the other day. Though I know quite a bit of their beliefs I stayed away from them. I simply asked them "Have you been born again." They said "no." So I kept right on that topic. Unless you are born again you cannot enter the kingdom of God. It doesn't matter at that point what their view of Christ is. They must be born again. They must see that necessity. Never mind about eschatology, the 144,000, etc. They must be born again. Don't get side-tracked.

For instance a muslim will say you believe such and such when in fact you don't. How do you respond? Well you say "we don't believe that" And when they are able to accurately describe what it is you believe then you can have a real debate. Same thing here.

So what if they don't believe that. What do they believe about eternity? Some day they will die. Then what? What about forgiveness of sins? How do they know Allah will forgive their sins? Do they have any guarantee? Get them thinking. One must be that way with any individual that you witness to.

One Muslim told me: "You believe in the trinity don't you?" Then I replied, "Yes, but what do you think I mean when I say 'I believe in the trinity'"? He replied--3 Gods. He gave the standard answer his Muslim cleric had drilled into him what Christians believe, which is false of course. I took two hours to clear up those misconceptions. We, like them, believe in only one God.

I don't have to know their religion. I have to know my Bible. Knowing their religion gives some advantage, but not a great deal, not as much as a good knowledge of your own Bible.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Truthfully, I don't have to know a thing about another's religion. What I do have to know is the Bible. No matter what religious person I witness to I must have a good working knowledge of the Bible.

Actually, DHK that is the finest thing you've said to date. If you aproach people in exactly that way I think you'll do well. Its great to say I don't know anything about Catholicism but I do know the bible and this is what I believe. In Fact, that is the most honest and best thing to do and say. The problem is when you start thowing the accusations. Ie 'you worship Mary' or ' Your priest are more powerful than God because they put Jesus into a waifer'. Those things aren't only not true. But they detract from the message you purport. Do you know what gets my family every time?

"You know what I was like before Jesus, and now you know what I'm like after encountering Jesus" Its hard to argue observable change. However, If I hear something that isn't right. I'll call someone on it. Just like this thread. I'm in agreement with you DHK. I believe that those who believe God only loves the Elect and hates everyone else are believing an error. Its understandable from a hyper Calvinistic view. Calvin didn't go that far. Calvin certainly emphasised the supremacy of God but I think people take him too far. And create and elitist view that the Jews were guilty of and in the end disqualified them from the church body.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Every single man is rebellious. But God is greater than man. When the Son of God speaks to the dead sinner, the dead sinner lives. John 5:25

Jesus only raised those who believed in him in the Gospels.

 

[DHK]

Actually, DHK that is the finest thing you've said to date. If you aproach people in exactly that way I think you'll do well. Its great to say I don't know anything about Catholicism but I do know the bible and this is what I believe. In Fact, that is the most honest and best thing to do and say. The problem is when you start thowing the accusations. Ie 'you worship Mary' or ' Your priest are more powerful than God because they put Jesus into a waifer'. Those things aren't only not true. But they detract from the message you purport. Do you know what gets my family every time?

That is how I do approach the lost.
But this board is not for evangelism. The average person that comes here is not seeking how to be saved. Either they are fellow Baptists or they are apologists for their respective religions and well-versed in their own religion. Thus when they do bring up error, it must be confronted. Hundreds will see it on this board. Error cannot be left unchecked. Not here. This is a debate forum. All things are passed through the eyes of the Bible, and through the Bible looked at and analyzed. If it doesn't measure up to the standard of the Bible it is to be discarded. The Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine. That is why I don't put much faith in the ECF, though the RCC might.

 

[annsni]

Jesus only raised those who believed in him in the Gospels.

Did Jarius' daughter believe in Jesus?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Did Jarius' daughter believe in Jesus?

don't know doesn't say. jarius did though.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

That is how I do approach the lost.
But this board is not for evangelism. The average person that comes here is not seeking how to be saved. Either they are fellow Baptists or they are apologists for their respective religions and well-versed in their own religion. Thus when they do bring up error, it must be confronted. Hundreds will see it on this board. Error cannot be left unchecked. Not here. This is a debate forum. All things are passed through the eyes of the Bible, and through the Bible looked at and analyzed. If it doesn't measure up to the standard of the Bible it is to be discarded. The Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine. That is why I don't put much faith in the ECF, though the RCC might.

So then accurately describe the error then argue against it. Don't make up stuff or say false things then argue for the position no one believed anyway.

 

[RAdam]

don't know doesn't say. jarius did though.

But did the girl? You don't know, and neither do I. This much I do know, she was dead. She wasn't able to ask Him to raise her up naturally. She wasn't able to respond in any way naturally until He made her naturally alive.

The sinner dead spiritually is the same way spiritually. He cannot respond until the Lord makes Him spiritually alive. He cannot ask God to raise him up spiritually. He is dead until he is quickened by God.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

But did the girl? You don't know, and neither do I. This much I do know, she was dead. She wasn't able to ask Him to raise her up naturally. She wasn't able to respond in any way naturally until He made her naturally alive.

The sinner dead spiritually is the same way spiritually. He cannot respond until the Lord makes Him spiritually alive. He cannot ask God to raise him up spiritually. He is dead until he is quickened by God.

True but were talking about two things. a physical resurrection and a spiritual one. I happen to think there are people opposed to the spiritual one. However, there is an element of awakening that is totally at the descretion of God. However, I will not buy that God doesn't love all people whether regenrate or not. I'm not an elitist as the Jews were. The regenerate hold a special place (apple of God's eye and such) but the unregenerate is also loved by God. God is not willing that any should perish however will not over step the bounds set by the human will.

 

[DHK]

But did the girl? You don't know, and neither do I. This much I do know, she was dead. She wasn't able to ask Him to raise her up naturally. She wasn't able to respond in any way naturally until He made her naturally alive.

The sinner dead spiritually is the same way spiritually. He cannot respond until the Lord makes Him spiritually alive. He cannot ask God to raise him up spiritually. He is dead until he is quickened by God.

I believe you are confused because you have a wrong definition of dead or death. Death in the Bible always means separation. If my child is separated from is he unable to respond to me? No. In fact he, of his own free will, must come to me. In the Bible there must be conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Your immediate objection will be "but he is already your son, so it is a bad example in that sense.
What if my neighbor has stolen from me. God will work in his conscience until he has made things right. Even if I don't go and nag him for the stolen goods, it is quite possible he may come and return them out of a guilty conscience. But he out of his own free will must come. God has given every man a free will. In such a way God has made man in his own image. Man is not a robot as the Calvinist describes him.

Death means separation. Find me a place in Scripture where death does not mean separation. Whether physical separation, spiritual separation, eternal separation, death means separation. When you don't view death as separation your view of salvation will definitely be messed up.

 

[RAdam]

Natural resurrection in the bible is analogous to spiritual resurrection (the new birth). When raising the natural dead, Jesus simply spoke and the person had life. Jesus said the same thing about spiritual resurrection (regeneration, the new birth). He said He speaks to the dead and they have life.

 

[RAdam]

Go out into the cemetary and try to entice naturally dead people to get out of the ground. You can't do it, because they are naturally dead. They cannot naturally hear you, naturally respond, or do anything naturally. It is the same way with spiritually dead people. If someone is spiritually dead, that means they cannot hear a spiritual message, they cannot understand a spiritual message, and they cannot respond spiritually to such a message. That's exactly what I find in the bible. I find Paul telling me that the natural receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned. The natural man not only won't, he can't. He can't receive these things because they are spiritually discerned, and he lacks the ability to discern spiritually. He is dead spiritually.

 

[DHK]

Go out into the cemetary and try to entice naturally dead people to get out of the ground. You can't do it, because they are naturally dead. They cannot naturally hear you, naturally respond, or do anything naturally. It is the same way with spiritually dead people. If someone is spiritually dead, that means they cannot hear a spiritual message, they cannot understand a spiritual message, and they cannot respond spiritually to such a message. That's exactly what I find in the bible. I find Paul telling me that the natural receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned. The natural man not only won't, he can't. He can't receive these things because they are spiritually discerned, and he lacks the ability to discern spiritually. He is dead spiritually.

You have made an analogy which I don't believe is necessarily true.
That analogy is reserved for the Christian life more than the unsaved.
Paul said "I die daily."
He said "I am crucified with Christ."
Every day we need to put ourselves to death. Die to sin. Die to this body of flesh and live unto Christ. See the dead dog in the street. Command it to get up. Will it? No. It will not follow any command of yours. So should our attitude be toward sin. We are dead to sin. "Likewise reckon yourselves dead unto sin." Baptism gives the same picture. Death to sin; death to our old way of living, but alive unto our new life in Christ. And yet we have the Holy Spirit living in us.

Thus your picture is flawed from the beginning.

 

[RAdam]

That doesn't prove my picture is flawed.

The bible describes an unregenerate person as dead in sins. The bible says that Jesus speaks to the dead in sins and raises them to spiritual life. The bible says the dead in sins cannot understand spiritual things because they are spiritually discerned and he lacks that ability. It's pretty simple really. A spiritual message cannot bring a person dead in sins to respond in a spiritual manner. That person must first be regenerated by God. In like manner a natural message could not bring a person dead physically to respond in a natural, physical manner. That person would have to be raised to physical, natural life first.

 

[DHK]

That doesn't prove my picture is flawed.

The bible describes an unregenerate person as dead in sins.

And what does that mean to you.
The Bible says that dead means separated. If a man is separated it does not mean that he cannot be reconciled which is what you think.

Furthermore you completely do away, if not deny the ministry of the Holy Spirit:

John 16:8-11 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

The Holy Spirit's ministry is to convict of sin. You believe he cannot convict a dead man. But your definition of dead is wrong. Death means separation. He is alive but separated from God. That is all that death means. Once he is convicted he is able to respond of his own free will.

The Bible defines death:
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--When the spirit separates from the body it is death. That is a biblical definition of physical death. Spiritual death is much the same: when the spirit is separated from God.

The bible says that Jesus speaks to the dead in sins and raises them to spiritual life. The bible says the dead in sins cannot understand spiritual things because they are spiritually discerned and he lacks that ability.

Why? Because he is separated from God. That is what death is. A person separated from God cannot hear God.

It's pretty simple really. A spiritual message cannot bring a person dead in sins to respond in a spiritual manner. That person must first be regenerated by God.

Sorry, I don't believe in man's theology. Put your books from Calvin away.

In like manner a natural message could not bring a person dead physically to respond in a natural, physical manner. That person would have to be raised to physical, natural life first.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
Once a man hears the gospel he has the opportunity to be saved. If he is convicted of the Holy Spirit he will either refuse that conviction or receive Christ as Savior. He makes up his own mind. He is the one who must exercise his own faith in order to believe on Christ. The Bible says: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Why do you read into the Scripture: Believe (with the belief of Christ) in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. It doesn't say that.

 

[RAdam]

So you are basically saying that when Paul said a man was dead in sins, he didn't really mean dead.

Death is separation. I'm not arguing that. But dead means dead. If someone is dead in a physical sense, they are separated from me. They are also dead. That means that person cannot move, think, act, reason, hear, speak, etc in a physical sense. The same is true of a spiritually dead person.

The Spirit convicts of sin, but there are many people whom He does not convict.

By the way, I don't have any books from Calvin. I do, however, have the bible. The Lord Jesus said He would speak to the spiritually dead and they would live. The apostle Paul said the man dead in sins cannot hear and understand because he is dead. That's where I get my theology from.

 

[RAdam]

By the way, you are taking Romans 10 out of context.