Why use an Apple Macintosh?

Nah, that's OK. I'll keep my little monstrosity.

Ya see, if I decide to change my setup, I can, with no problems. I can buy my parts almost anywhere (I can even buy hard drives and graphics cards at WalMart). And I know what's under the hood of this puppy 'cause I built it.

Viruses? Spyware? Security? Got it covered. And while I ain't crazy about the company that makes Windows, I can live with the software.

If I wanted to learn a new system, I'd just switch to Linux.

 

Actually, you can test out a Linux system on your very own computer without even installing it. It will run right from your cd-rom. It's called a live distro. There are a couple of them out there, but the best one for a desktop solution is called Mepis.

http://www.mepis.org/


If you're not familiar with or comfortable with burning an ISO to a cd, and want to try it out, send me a message through a pm or e-mail, and I'll gladly burn a copy to a cd for you, and send it to you. You want to talk about having all the software loaded on that you could possibly need (for a desktop solution)? This OS has it. This is a great learning experience for anyone wanting to take a little time to play around with. With a little modification (which is fairly simple to do), you can install mysql, php, and anything else you want to run a real live web server. But, if you really want a good web server, I would go with one of the RedHat clones like Fedora Core or Centos. Most of the commercial servers out there running Linux are running one of those two. And, the software is free.

 

a cut and paste.....

My name is Jack Campbell, until September, CEO of a manufacturing company producing Apple Computer related products.

Just over one-year ago, my company, DVForge, announced a $25,000 prize for the first virus developer who could infect two Powermac G5 computers located in our office, both with plain-Jane installations of OS X, by propagating that new virus over the internet. In the onslaught of correspondence that quickly then began streaming into our office we found enough wisdom to convince us to cancel that contest, due almost completely to potential risks to legal liabilities. But, the flare was shot into the sky, and the challenge received a huge degree of worldwide press attention, in both Apple press and mainstream press outlets. Presumedly, any virus coders who had not previously eyed the Apple platform would have seen some of this press exposure, and would have been enticed by the challenge, regardless of the retraction of the cash prize.

Well, more than a year has passed. And, surprisingly (or not, to some of us), there is still not one self-replicating virus in the wild that attacks the Mac OS X operating system. That's right, folks... not one. Not the first. Ever. Never. Zero.

Against this reality -- zero actual propagating OS X viruses in the wild -- there has been a groundswell of press attention offered recently to the notion that, somehow, Mac OS X is "nearly" as vulnerable to such afflictions as is Windows XP. In fact, this idea has become the darling for seemingly every writing hack in the industry to use as a stepping off point for whatever brand of yellow journalism they wish to pen.

When I announced the OS X Virus Contest, OS X had been on the market for four years, with still not one single in the wild virus. Now, it has been more than five years. And, guess what?... still not one in the wild virus!

We structured the contest last year to isolate the threat of an in the wild, self-replicating, self-propogating virus as that is the one true worldwide threat to any computer operating system. This can be seen from at least two hugely publicized attacks by just these creatures against the Windows OS in just the past two-years. Worldwide panic and devastation to millions of computers was the result in both instances. These were not "malware" or "trojan" attacks... and despite the yellow journalist's efforts to blur the distinction between these various security threats, the fact remains that it is the self-propagating virus, that launches from computer to computer without conscious involvement by the user, that poses the highest risk of devastating damage. So, that is where we focused.

Today, in honor of the many people who so vocally supported our virus contest last year, I am publicly challenging the many tech industry writers who have so loudly heralded "the growing OS X security risk" over the past few days to step up and show me one thing: just one in the wild virus that infects Mac OS X.

Show me that one item, and I will shut up.

 

Security experts are warning Mac users about a malicious script that can destroy data on your Mac, install remote control software, and harvest passwords you thought were secure.

It’s a script worm, virus, trojan horse malware application called “Opener” by Mac security sites.

Opener works in a very simple manner. It’s a simple Unix shell script that tries to turn off your OS X firewall (most of it is on by default on Mac OS X), then it downloads and tries to install other little applications to crack passwords, mess with data, and get you hooked on Prevacid AC.

The bad news is that it works. The good news is that you have to let it work. It won’t just crawl up your leg as you walk by a Windows machine and then jump into your Mac through an opening in the keyboard.

The bad news is that Opener (also known in some Mac circles as “Renepo") can also turn off your system logging and accounting in Mac OS X to try to hide the fact that it’s even been on your machine.



Opener is not a “virus” that’s easy to get. The bad news is that once you get it, it could really harm your Mac and harm other Macs on your office network.
Some call Opener a harvester. This “worm” (virus, trojan horse, malware) tries to “harvest” user, configuration, and password data for a bunch of applications on your Mac. It also sets up a backdoor which can leave your Mac open to additional attacks.

Ouch. Is there a solution? Is there a shot to get rid of the “worm”? And, why is it called a worm, AND a virus, AND a trojan horse all at the same time? And what’s malware?

I dunno. It’s probably called a virus because it really can infect your Mac. It’s a worm because of what it does-- worm it’s way through your Mac causing additional damage. It’s also something of a Trojan Horse because you really have to bring it to your Mac for it to work.

Opener hasn’t been seen in the wild yet. It’s just a, well, um a laboratory virus, er, uh, malware.

Windows users have worms, viruses, and Trojan Horses. Mac users have malware. Remember, we’re only 10-percent of all computer users. But it’s the top 10-percent.

Opener cannot automatically propagate (hmmmm, that’s another good word to incorporate into the leading solution to date) itself to other Macs. It will copy itself to any drive connect to an infected Mac; local drives, server drives, or connect remote Macs.

The good news is that Open relies on administrator privileges to get installed in the first time. Once it’s installed as a startup program, every time your Mac is turned on ("I love you, Mac. I love you, Mac....) it tries to grow.

How prevalent is this so-called malware? Antivirus company Trend Micro says they’ve not received a single infection report from any customers. NewsFactor quoted TrendMicro’s Joe Hartmann, “We don’t expect it to spread very far. If it was not for the fact that it runs on the Mac platform, it would be just another piece of malicious code. We typically get 500-1,000 new pieces of malware every month. We have literally seen thousands of similar pieces of code for other OS platforms, especially Windows.”

Let’s do the math. Opener is theoretical in the wild (it must only be in captivity right now), and one of the first of its kind for Mac OS X. Meanwhile, they get 500 to 1,000 new pieces of malware every month. For Windows, right? Maybe some Unix folks thrown in for added taste? Those are pretty good odds for Mac folks.


Should we take this virus, worm, Trojan Horse, malware threat seriously?

Yes.

Mac OS X has been and remains a very secure platform. That’s by design and by Apple’s quick attention to vulnerabilities. A recent news report pointed out that most Windows users know nothing about what has infected their PCs. Let’s not be naive and think it’ll never happen on the Mac.

 

767 days!

Why buy a Mac? I have a Mac G3, 233 mhz, beige-box desktop model, that I bought refurbished from PowerMax in Oregon in 1999. It has logged Many, many hours of use. It came with OS 8.1, which worked well, but is even better with 9.2.2.

Since upgrading to 9.2.2, I have had zero, none, nada, not one system crashes. I have been using system 9 for 767 days since install, without even thing about a reinstall. Over 2 years. This is in a house without airconditioning {can't afford the electric bills}, which gives the double peril of heat and extra dust.

This is a very stable OS, and machine. :thumbs: raise:

 

BTW, its good to see that the number of Mac users on BB has grown. There was a time when a Mac question would get hardly any response.
:type:

 

:smilewinkgrin:

As I stated in an earlier post, my intentions were not to flame Macs. If you've never experienced problems, then great. As for parts not being propietary, that is not totally correct. Try replacing the motherboard with another brand. Except for possibly the new Macs with the Intel chips (I haven't opened one of these yet), the processor is not something you can pick up at any PC shop, except an Apple store. You keep mentioning all of the problems for Windows, but in the last couple of years, as long as the user is educated on what to run on their pc, such as a firewall and up to date anti-virus programs, and do a spyware scan every now and then, they're going to experience very little in the way of problems, unless it's a user mistake. It's a matter of educating themselves on what to do and not do on their pc. You can mess up a Mac just as easy as a pc if you do the wrong things. It's like driving a car. You have to learn a few things about how to take care of one. Oh, and for the comment on the ISO on a Mac, I don't recommend trying to install with a Linux distro, unless it specifically states it will run on a Mac. I believe there are a couple of Linux distro's for Mac, like Yellow Dog. I've never tried them, though. I've also mentioned before, if anyone is in my area, and wants some Macs, bring a pickup truck, and I'll load you up with some old G3 all in ones. You gotta take 'em all.

 

But that’s rather nonsensical if you think about it. A Macintosh is, by definition, a motherboard and operating system that is designed to work together. Your illustration of “replacing the motherboard with another [non-Apple/non-Macintosh] brand” falsely assumes that a Macintosh is only an operating system, like Windows. Apple is primarily a hardware manufacturer that also creates software to work with their systems. To allow potential Macintosh owners to use their patents, build their own systems from parts not purchased from Apple, and run their inexpensive OS would be the end of the company. The fact that Apple controls both the hardware and the software allows Apple to drive innovation and provide the best customer experience on the market.

It is rather easy to purchase PowerPC processes on the internet. It has been that way for as long as I know. With the Intel chips, you can also purchase the processors to replace your original equipment. But I’ve never seem “loose” processors for sale through Apple.

That sounds good except that I use Windows intensively everyday at work and I have a whole computer services department supporting me and a rather invasive set of firewalls and anti-virus software running at all times... yet, I generally have two or three major problems a year with viruses getting inside our network or the Windows installation becoming completely unstable.

I’ve never had those problems on a Macintosh.

Actually, the Mac is more like driving a tank. The bad stuff bounces right off. And for the tiny amount of malware out there designed to attack the Macintoshes, the destructive software has to ask your permission and have you give it access to do anything that might cause any real problems.

Mac OS X is designed for security and ease of use, and has become very refined over the past few years.

Have you actually used OS X?

 

1.

Actually, it makes a lot of sense. I'm not falsely assuming anything. My reply was to another post, where you're taking my meaning out of context. The post I replied to basically mentioned that parts for a Mac are available anywhere, and interchangeable, such as drives, RAM, etc. With a pc, not only can I choose who and where to but my parts, but my parts list includes anything on the pc, from the case, power supply, motherboard, and processor. Do I blame Apple for it's business model? No. At the same time, they could've been the number one computer manufacturer if they had opened up the hardware side. They're slowly coming around to that mistake now. My own personal opinion, I like to pick and choose what goes into my computer, and what I spend. I can build a computer running three different operating systems on the same hard drive, with all kinds of ram and processor power for under $500.00. Or, I can build a really powerful desktop solution running a Linux Distro only, and keep the pc under $200.00. You don't get those kind of options running a Mac.

2. I never said you couldn't buy them over the Internet. To purchase new ones, where do you go on the Internet? You certainly can't find them on sites like www.newegg.com, or www.tigerdirect.com. You can find used ones on www.ebay.com. You purchase them through Apple. I can purchase brand new processors, loose, at any pc shop. Actually, I can buy them wholesale through my vendors. I still have my wholesale license and accounts open.

3.

Again, problems like this are because of user error, or neglect, or uneducated about security. Opening e-mail attachments without scanning them. A Mac can be infected with a trojan in the same manner. Visiting sites not only not related to work, but sites I personally would not visit, much less allow my kids to visit. Viruses can be contracted in a lot of different ways. And, with a few exceptions in history, these viruses are opened on a system by user intervention. This is also possible on a Mac if it's being run as admin, and someone that didn't know what they were doing, granted access. Don't tell me that no one is that ignorant. People are human, and do some amazing things (sometimes these amazing things are destructive).

4.

See my last comment.

5.

Yes. And your point is?

To be honest, I'm getting worn on this issue. All I set out to do is to help a few people not to have a false sense of security, with the comments that Macs could not be hacked or contract a virus. If you want to believe this, then who am I to try to convince you otherwise. And, I'm not the type to come back and say told you so once one does hit. They said that Firefox was invulnerable. It didn't take as long to exploit flaws in Firefox as it has for the newer Macs. But, give it time. Exploits have been found, they're just not as common as Windows. If you go back and read my posts, no where will you see me say that Macs are not more secure than Windows. I have never disputed that fact. I'm done discussing it. Thank you.

 

I could take issue with some of your previous points, but I don't want this to get into a bashing thread...

I'm not sure anyone has claimed that Macs could not be hacked or contract a virus. I do know that in more than five years of use, Mac OS X has had almost no instances of malware and no successful trojans that have been able to spread from computer to computer without direct intervention by the user.

That might change, but the reality that Macs represent a safer and more secure alternative to Windows is extremely hard to deny and still have much credibility.

Anyone who claims invulnerability is foolish.

Yep, by an extraordinary margin.

Yes, but you have appeared to paint the picture that Macs aren't much better than Windows machines in terms of security. That's what has some of us protesting.

That's fine. I appreciate your comments and your pertinent contributions to this thread. No one should get cocky about security.

Thank you!

 

The vast majority of OS problems found in business/school networks are caused by the users.

Even with firewalls, A/V, anti-spyware, and web filters blocking access to the majority of the web, all it takes is one infected thumb drive, one infected CD, one infected floppy, or one infected email to bring any system to its knees.

My wife used to work for a company that eventually became part of Kellogg's (fun rife that was). Anyway, everyone was warned about an email virus that was hitting everyone hard. Later that day, she was checking her email and went down the list clicking them. In doing so, she opened an email that had an attachment of the virus. She didn't open the file (thankfully), but she realized what it was and paniced. She contacted the office IT, who contacted Kellogg's, who began sanitising the system, taking everyone off-line for the rest of the day.

Now, in all of that, the virus never actually entered the network. But, through that one point of entry, it would have infected all of Kellogg's network.

All it takes is one person...

 

It appears that my replies have again been twisted, and words put in my mouth, once again. No where have I mentioned that Macs are no better than Windows. No where in this thread have I ever got cocky about anything. There was a time in my life where I would have been getting nasty by now, but I have held my tongue and temper. I have seen several posts in this thread that have represented the claim that a Mac cannot contract a virus, and it seemed that the claim is that the Mac cannot be hacked, rooted (Unix and Linux Admins know what this is), cannot be infected by any sort of malware or virus. I'm not only done with this thread, but this site as well. Thank you very much. I'll pray for you.

 

In the three years that I have had my Apple, I have not ever had one Screen Freeze or Crash of any type. My XP pc at work has crashed several times due to various reasons.

Where Apple has an advantage is that they make the whole system, rather than attempting to get several companies hardware and software to be cobbled together, I think that is ultimatley the cause of many XP crashes.

 

Beside Apple's business model as a hardware manufacturer, I think a secondary reason they don't release Mac OS X for non-Apple systems is that they would face enormous support issues with systems cobbled together that don't meet the standards that OS X requires. For all of my dislike of Windows, Microsoft really has a chore on its hands trying to support the clueless hobbyists and low quality PCs that comprise a significant portion of their user base. Furthermore, Microsoft is somewhat limited in their ability to innovate anything (the list of Microsoft innovations is surprisingly short for a company that brags about innovation) because of their lack of control of the hardware platform. They risk alienating an enormous portion of their user base if they try anything new.

So Apple, who, if judged by the userbase alone, should only be a niche player, dominates innovation and implementation of new technology in the computer world.

 

1) I love Macs and have from the very start. But let it be known Macs can take on a virus this is very fair to say. The planning that went into OSX has made it very had to have any program automatically propagate. This is why it is very hard for a mac to get a virus. You have talked about UNIX and I'm sure you know about it. I have only worked with Solaris for about 4 years, so my understanding is not as great as others. But before OSX, Solaris was the best if you were to ask must UNIX people. OSX has changed this notion.

One of the best things that Apple brought to UNIX came from the old OS classic. This would be privileges set in share points. If you move item into a folder it retains no privileges other then that which the admin gives to it. If a virus were to make it even into "root", most likly it will be contained inside the folder it is placed until the admin opens the door to other folders. Having share points inside of restricted folders makes it very had for a program to propagate on its own.

In Solaris privileges are set on a slopping hill. The highest hierarchy is root, and all other folders that step down has a lower hierarchy. This is great for security of root, but can leave data and software open for attach. This can also lead to having a "bad program" to propagate in a lower hierarchy and then eat its way back to root.

2) A Mac cannot be hacked. This is crazy. If someone has said this, they do not know what they are talking about. All computers can be hacked. I had a person that worked for me that has now left for this reason. He now works for Apple trying to hack into the system. Apple pays him to find holes, how cool is that?

3) I'm not only done with this thread, but this site as well. Thank you very much I hope your not mad. Not sure what you got mad about, if in fact you are. Its only a computer. This talk has only been about...My dog is better then your dog"...or My team is better then your team"...which can be fun if we keep it fun. I for one do not wish you to leave. Come back and join the fun sometime. I'll talk with ya about anything ...Mac, PC, Mex food, basketball, Bible, and my great hate for peas.



In Christ..James

 

I had heard that OS X had implemented a system like this, but I didn't know how it worked.

Thanks for the great explanation! :thumbs: