Why was Spurgeon depressed?

[Mexdeaf]

Spurgeon was depressed because he smoked cigars.

:tongue3:

 

[Freedom]

It can be. The Bible certainly treats it like sin, for instance in Psa 42-43 and where depression is the result of failing to hope in God.

When is it not a sin to fail to hope in God? The reasons for that lack of hope might be complex, but we need to start with some questions that often get overlooked.

So again, the simplistic approach that you and some others are taking can be very destructive. I hope you won't involve yourself in people's lives until you get a better handle on the issues surrounding these matters. It is more complex.

People with severe Alteimizers disease generally lose hope. Are they turning their back on God? Are they in a sinful condition?

 

[Freedom]

Christ said a house divided cannot stand. Given the context in which he said it, I would take that to mean the Holy Spirit and a demonic spirit could not reside in the same body.

But what is the justification for saying that depression is caused by demonic possession?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Huh ?

There is no justification. Depression comes from slipping in Christ's command to be of good cheer. I thought that's been said, already. Sickness & death were brought into the world because of sin. Your question makes no sense.

 

[Pastor Larry]

People with severe Alteimizers disease generally lose hope. Are they turning their back on God? Are they in a sinful condition?

I think people with severe Alzheimer's generally lose a sense of what is going on. They are divorced from reality. It is not so much a matter of them losing hope.

It sounds like you are a typically uninformed person who has read a few snippets here and there, but don't really have any idea of what the issues are. That's one of the problems with a discussion like this. We end up with people who don't know what they are talking about making bold dogmatic statements and throwing out silly and often unrelated examples.

We don't know enough about Alzheimer's to talk about causes and effects, and what the physiology of the brain is like. There is a lot of work to be done there.

But people who have actual depression deserve more than the flippant responses you are giving here. I hope you will spare depressed people your friendship during their dark days.

 

[Revmitchell]

Depression comes from slipping in Christ's command to be of good cheer.

This is just to broad a brush to be correct.

 

[Freedom]

I think people with severe Alzheimer's generally lose a sense of what is going on. They are divorced from reality. It is not so much a matter of them losing hope.

It sounds like you are a typically uninformed person who has read a few snippets here and there, but don't really have any idea of what the issues are. That's one of the problems with a discussion like this. We end up with people who don't know what they are talking about making bold dogmatic statements and throwing out silly and often unrelated examples.

We don't know enough about Alzheimer's to talk about causes and effects, and what the physiology of the brain is like. There is a lot of work to be done there.

But people who have actual depression deserve more than the flippant responses you are giving here. I hope you will spare depressed people your friendship during their dark days.

I'm not giving flippant responses and how can you be so presumptuous to assume that I don't know anything about depression? What do you know about depression? Unless you're experienced it yourself or you're very close (wife, child, brother, mother) to someone who has been hospitalized 5 times and had shock treatments 3 times I'd say you are ignorant about the topic. I'd also say you are terrifically callous about mental illness.

Your response was very hurtful.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I'm not giving flippant responses and how can you be so presumptuous to assume that I don't know anything about depression?

Your answers indicate that you didn't read what I said very closely (you still haven't backed up your accusation about what I said), and that you have not substantively interacted with the whole range of biblical and physical issues of depression. You may have, but your comments here do not indicate that.

What do you know about depression? Unless you're experienced it yourself or you're very close (wife, child, brother, mother) to someone who has been hospitalized 5 times and had shock treatments 3 times I'd say you are ignorant about the topic.

You could say that, but you would be wrong on several different levels. It is possible to know about depression with this (meaning your argumentative basis is flawed).

I'd also say you are terrifically callous about mental illness.

Again, you are simply incorrect to say that.

Your response was very hurtful.

Calling us to think about real solutions is hurtful? You would rather have people live in an endless cycle of hopelessness and despair? Depression is dark. And if you haven't experienced it, you don't understand it. My call is that we should do more than throw superficial solutions at it. We need to think seriously about real issues.

 

[Freedom]

Your answers indicate that you didn't read what I said very closely (you still haven't backed up your accusation about what I said), and that you have not substantively interacted with the whole range of biblical and physical issues of depression. You may have, but your comments here do not indicate that.

You could say that, but you would be wrong on several different levels. It is possible to know about depression with this (meaning your argumentative basis is flawed).

Again, you are simply incorrect to say that.

Calling us to think about real solutions is hurtful? You would rather have people live in an endless cycle of hopelessness and despair? Depression is dark. And if you haven't experienced it, you don't understand it. My call is that we should do more than throw superficial solutions at it. We need to think seriously about real issues.

I suggest that you post your PERSONAL experience with depression and then I'll post mine if you indeed have any experience.

 

[Palatka51]

We have to remember that chemical imbalances have never actually been documented as causal in the way that many people think. The medicines used to treat them are treating symptoms. They are not sure that they treat causes. So we should be cautious with that kind of terminology and thinking.

There are a number of factors, including personality, situation in life. Spurgeon had some very difficult battles for truth in the BBU, and that brought great turmoil to him. I would tend to believe the pressures of ministry, combined with his personality, led to it. He also had some great physical battles with gout.

I have gout and I've got to tell you that it is no pic-nick. CHS suffered from it at a time when medical technology still consisted of leach therapy. Gout does not let you rest. If you do not sleep you will develop depression.

I for one am very thankful to God Almighty for modern American medicine or I too would be like Spurgeon.

 

[canadyjd]

I for one am very thankful to God Almighty for modern American medicine or I too would be like Spurgeon.

(emphasis mine) Modern medicine is not keeping you from being like Spurgeon. :smilewinkgrin:

As one of my profs used to say, "If you were like Spurgeon, we'd already know it".:laugh:

peace to youraying:

 

[Pastor Larry]

I suggest that you post your PERSONAL experience with depression and then I'll post mine if you indeed have any experience.

I don't need to for a number of reasons. Most of all because truth is not measured by experience, and especially not compared experience.

Do you deny that a person's spiritual condition can sometimes cause depression?

 

[Jedi Knight]

I don't need to for a number of reasons. Most of all because truth is not measured by experience, and especially not compared experience.

Do you deny that a person's spiritual condition can sometimes cause depression?

Most assuredly , King Saul is an example that comes to mind because of his disobedience. Hope can drive away the waves of depression that beat on the anxious mind and heart. I believe scripture has the answer to the ROOT of depression....anxiety in the heart "Proverbs 12:25"and Doctors are dealing with the FRUIT of depression.

 

[Freedom]

I don't need to for a number of reasons. Most of all because truth is not measured by experience, and especially not compared experience.

Do you deny that a person's spiritual condition can sometimes cause depression?

No I don't deny that. However, my understanding is that this is a complex problem which can be a mix of physical and psychological issues. Let me try a fact on for size, Do you know that if one identical twin has clinical depression the probability that their twin will also suffer from it as well?

Spiritual problems are not inherited but depression can be. That's been proven through scientific studies.

 

[Freedom]

Most assuredly , King Saul is an example that comes to mind because of his disobedience. Hope can drive away the waves of depression that beat on the anxious mind and heart. I believe scripture has the answer to the ROOT of depression....anxiety in the heart "Proverbs 12:25"and Doctors are dealing with the FRUIT of depression.

Admittedly, that's one good example. But here are the statistics for the United States.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Se...Management/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=67727


Major depression affects about five to eight percent of the United States’ adult population in any 12-month period, which means that, based on the last census, approximately 15 million Americans will have an episode of major depression this year.

Depression occurs twice as frequently in women as in men, for reasons that are not fully understood. More than half of those who experience a single episode of depression will continue to have episodes that occur as frequently as once or even twice a year. Without treatment, the frequency as well as the severity of symptoms of depressive illness tend to increase over time.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Admittedly, that's one good example. But here are the statistics for the United States.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Se...Management/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=67727


Major depression affects about five to eight percent of the United States’ adult population in any 12-month period, which means that, based on the last census, approximately 15 million Americans will have an episode of major depression this year.

Depression occurs twice as frequently in women as in men, for reasons that are not fully understood. More than half of those who experience a single episode of depression will continue to have episodes that occur as frequently as once or even twice a year. Without treatment, the frequency as well as the severity of symptoms of depressive illness tend to increase over time.

I still think dead people"lost" have no idea or remedy apart from hope in Christ, thus the reason they don't know what causes it. This is like them looking for the origins of life without the scriptures for guidance and wonder "what caused this universe to exists."

 

[Pastor Larry]

No I don't deny that.

Then what are you disagreeing with me about? That's all I said was that depression can be spiritual in nature.

However, my understanding is that this is a complex problem which can be a mix of physical and psychological issues.

I doubt that there are any actual "psychological" issues. They are physical in nature (as in dealing with the body or material part of man) or spiritual (as in dealing with the spirit or immaterial part of man).

Do you know that if one identical twin has clinical depression the probability that their twin will also suffer from it as well?

Yes, I know that is said, but remember, that there are many factors.

Spiritual problems are not inherited but depression can be. That's been proven through scientific studies.

I wonder if you ever stopped to think that people who spend a lot of time around depressed people (particularly growing up) are more likely to be depressed because that is how they learn to handle problems.

You (and many others) seem to overlook that many if not most of our responses to life are learned responses. For instance, people who grow up around angry parents are much more likely to have anger issues.

So this issue is a good deal more complex than you are letting on.

 

[TomVols]

News flash: depression is real. It is complex. Is it always a result of sin? In one sense, yes, since we all are messed up thanks to the fall and to our fallen world. Are chemicals at play? Yes, we know this. You can literally take a vial and give someone depression for a time. Are SSRIs/SNRIs overused? I don't see how any sane person can say anything but yes. I have had NPs and PAs offer these to me just because I was sad one day about the Vols losing or the Reds losing streak or a bad sermon or the fact that it was raining. These drugs have powerful side effects and should be a last resort, not a quick first fix. I think it's rather akin to diabetes. Type 2 diabetics are supposed to use insulin as a last resort. Only after diet, weight control, etc., are exhausted as a means to control the issue. What about chemical imbalances? While this could be the case in a number of instances, it seems to be the default, screen-saver explanation. Imbalances can be temporary. If you have ever taken steroid injections, cortisone shots, etc., you know what I'm talking about. But the human brain releases millions of neruotransmitters every minute. God designed it to be a wonderfully restorative thing. But sin can tamper with that, and sin has tampered with that.

While we're talking about meds, one thing has always amused me. There are those who argue that SSRIs and SNRIs are sin....you sin by taking Prozac or Effexor or Wellbutrin. But not if you take herbals like 5-HTTP, Sam-E, or St. Johns Wort. Really? So one pill from one lab is a sin where another pill from another lab isn't? Got it. :tongue3:

I think Powlison, Welch, Adams, Johnson, Crabb are more correct than some of the others who try to make Christianity fit with Psychology.

 

[HankD]

OK here is my opinion:

Depression is the result of unresolved conflict.

When we are distressed or troubled about something then we have a need to bring ourselves back to a balanced state of mind or depression will follow.
IMO, a chemical imbalance is also the result not the cause of unresolved conflict mainly because we don't get the proper kind and amount of sleep.

Proverbs 3

19 The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.
20 By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew.
21 My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion:
22 So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck.
23 Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble.
24 When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet.​

The troublesome thing need not be sin. Basically we need to yield ouselves to God.
Yes easier said than done, I realize that because many years ago (and as a Christian) I experienced a deep state of depression.

WWJD?

John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.​

John 13:21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.​

Luke 22
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.​

Yielding to the will of God will eventually lead to strength coming down from heaven bringing joy and peace.​

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.​

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.​

It may take several years to learn this lesson.

HankD

 

[Pastor Larry]

Hank brings up an interesting point. No one has shown whether the chemical imbalance is the cause or the result of things like depression. There are a lot of assumptions going on, but no real hard science and thoughtful interaction.

And we have to remember that drugs treat symptoms, not problems.

Ed Welch's book Blame It On the Brain is a must read on this topic.