Why was Spurgeon depressed?

[Freedom]

Has anyone guessed that Spurgeon was depressed because he lived in England? I grew up in East Africa and was used to Tropical weather. Upon Joining the Air Force (and after training at Lackland which is comprable weather to what I was used to) I was stationed in the UK. I was depressed for several months because all that country did was rain! I missed the sun! And had to settle for cold drizzle. Interestingly enough my first assignment saw the suicide of two young Airmen and the attempt of a third.

That could very well have been part of it. Sunlight or even artificial light can have an impact on depression.

Seasonal affective disorder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_affective_disorder


Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD), also known as winter depression or winter blues, is a mood disorder in which people who have normal mental health throughout most of the year experience depressive symptoms in the winter or, less frequently, in the summer,[1] repeatedly, year after year. The US National Library of Medicine notes that "some people experience a serious mood change when the seasons change.

 

[Pastor Larry]

No, I don't see why they can't be compared. I happen to believe that an unbiblical outlook, continuous anger, stress, etc. has an effect on just about ANY physical disease. Do you believe that a heart attack can be caused by stress or anger? Physical problems and emotional problems are often related. Now do you understand why these two can be compared. They both have elements of each.

Heart disease and Alzheimer's have more in common than depression has with either one. Again, it's simply a matter of a poor comparison, focusing on few similarities rather than more difference.

This is what you said about the potential physical causes of depression:

We have to remember that chemical imbalances have never actually been documented as causal in the way that many people think. The medicines used to treat them are treating symptoms. They are not sure that they treat causes. So we should be cautious with that kind of terminology and thinking.

In what way does this support your contention that you have said "numerous times that depression can be caused by physical issues."

No, that's not all I said. In virtually every post, I have commented on the possibility of potential physical causes of depression. When you say I deny them, you are being dishonest.

YOU are the one who has been dishonest and trivialized the physical aspects of a dreadful DISEASE that affects millions of people. YOU owe them and me an apology.

I have done no such thing. I have clearly taken this issue more seriously than you have. I have never trivialized the physical aspects, as you well know.

This is another case where your previous pattern of much talking won't allow you to get past the fact that you ignore the truth about what I said. It didn't work before, and it won't work now. Everyone can read this thread and see that I did not say what you say I said. You were dishonest and you know it. I refuse to be a willing party to your disinformation, trivialization, and hurtful response to a very serious issue.

Again, I quote myself:

Here's what I said in post #55 on page 6, that you ignored:

Depression might be a spiritual issue.
Depression might be a physical issue.
The human body is complex and physical issues and spiritual issues are sometimes interrelated and inseparable.
Medicine has not yet determined whether physical issues are causes of depression or results of it. It is a greatly unstudied field.
No matter one's condition, obedience to God is non-negotiable.

Now, rather than trying to trade experiences and personal barbs, do you disagree with any of that?

 

[Jim1999]

I think one needs to define mental. For example, I may have mental deficiencies without any intelligence loss. If the brain is affected by stroke, some capacity to remember is lost and hence a mental defect entails. The intelligence is still there, but the physical activity is limited and the memory is defective, hence the person appears "mentally" incapacitated.

I may not be able to recall a well known person's name at the moment, but I still know who they are. Is that physical or mental?

Too often we relate mental to derranged.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[TomMann]

Don't you think that it might just be the possibility that he was fervently in belief that the Doctrines of Graced were the true gospel and was thwarted at every turn in trying in trying to show that to others. I believe that what he termed the "Downgrade Controversy" was a major source of depression to him. To have the truth and be unable to persuade others of that truth has to bring on all sorts of frustrations. Add to that the physical problems..... and I have no doubt that depression could be the result.

Lets face it, we have a book that tells us to look to Jesus.... the author and finisher of our faith..... and so many will say that we ourselves are the author and finisher of our faith... that we must discover and/or muster up faith of ourselves. It is a great frustration and depressor to have so great a cloud of witnesses when no one can hear.

 

[Freedom]

Heart disease and Alzheimer's have more in common than depression has with either one. Again, it's simply a matter of a poor comparison, focusing on few similarities rather than more difference.

No, that's not all I said. In virtually every post, I have commented on the possibility of potential physical causes of depression. When you say I deny them, you are being dishonest.

I have done no such thing. I have clearly taken this issue more seriously than you have. I have never trivialized the physical aspects, as you well know.

This is another case where your previous pattern of much talking won't allow you to get past the fact that you ignore the truth about what I said. It didn't work before, and it won't work now. Everyone can read this thread and see that I did not say what you say I said. You were dishonest and you know it. I refuse to be a willing party to your disinformation, trivialization, and hurtful response to a very serious issue.

Again, I quote myself:

Here's what I said in post #55 on page 6, that you ignored:

Depression might be a spiritual issue.
Depression might be a physical issue.
The human body is complex and physical issues and spiritual issues are sometimes interrelated and inseparable.
Medicine has not yet determined whether physical issues are causes of depression or results of it. It is a greatly unstudied field.
No matter one's condition, obedience to God is non-negotiable.

Now, rather than trying to trade experiences and personal barbs, do you disagree with any of that?

Bo, I don't know that you haven't trivialized the physical issues connected with depression. Did you in fact post what I quopted? if so you, like many, don't understand the disease. Repent.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Bo, I don't know that you haven't trivialized the physical issues connected with depression.

Then you aren't reading. The fact is that you do know that I haven't trivialized it. In fact, I take it far more seriously than you do, as is evident by our posts here.

Did you in fact post what I quopted?

Yes, I posted it. I also posted many other things. But the fact is that you have not shown anything factually wrong with what you quoted, and you didn't quote any of the many other things I said.

if so you, like many, don't understand the disease.

I understand it, clearly more than you do.

the fact is that we do not know if the physical issues are causes or results. If you know as much as you claim, you would know that. That's simply evidence that you are not familiar with the issue. You are talking way out of your apparent knowledge. (Again, maybe you know more than you are saying here.)

Repent.

Of what? Of knowing what I am talking about? Of being right? If you disagree with me, then show where, and show how I am wrong. So far you haven't done that. You have simply been dishonest about what I said, and refused to interact with it.

 

[Freedom]

Then you aren't reading. The fact is that you do know that I haven't trivialized it. In fact, I take it far more seriously than you do, as is evident by our posts here.

Yes, I posted it. I also posted many other things. But the fact is that you have not shown anything factually wrong with what you quoted, and you didn't quote any of the many other things I said.

I understand it, clearly more than you do.

the fact is that we do not know if the physical issues are causes or results. If you know as much as you claim, you would know that. That's simply evidence that you are not familiar with the issue. You are talking way out of your apparent knowledge. (Again, maybe you know more than you are saying here.)

Of what? Of knowing what I am talking about? Of being right? If you disagree with me, then show where, and show how I am wrong. So far you haven't done that. You have simply been dishonest about what I said, and refused to interact with it.

There is no way you understand this disease better than I do if YOU haven't experienced it yourself AND you don't have a close relative who had really serious problems with it. You claim that experience isn't important but I beg to differ. How could someone who hasn't had a heart attach/had their loved one almost die from one understand heart attacks as well as someone who has. I am criticizing your trivial offhand treatment of a serious condition.

 

[Pastor Larry]

There is no way you understand this disease better than I do if YOU haven't experienced it yourself AND you don't have a close relative who had really serious problems with it.

How do you know that I don't qualify for that, and how do you know that I don't understand it better than you even if I did qualify for that? It may be that someone who hasn't experienced it understands it better precisely because they have not experienced it and therefore do not have emotional issues with it.

You claim that experience isn't important but I beg to differ

You said earlier that I claimed this, but when I asked you to show where I claimed it, you didn't. So can you please show where I claimed that experience wasn't important? As an alternative, you can apologize for being dishonest about what I said. Either will be fine with me.

How could someone who hasn't had a heart attach/had their loved one almost die from one understand heart attacks as well as someone who has.

Quite easily. A doctor who hasn't had a heart attack is probably far more qualified to understand heart attacks than one who has had it. They are the ones trained to diagnose it, to operate when necessary, to treat it, etc. The idea that one has to experience something to understand it has no basis in reality. (You probably know that because you aren't stupid.)

I am criticizing your trivial offhand treatment of a serious condition.

No you're not because I haven't handled it trivial or offhanded. It is becoming increasingly clear that you don't know what you are talking about. You can do nothing but make personal attacks. You have yet to interact with anything I have said. I have now twice (three times perhaps) given a list of statements and asked you to deal with them, either to clarify, agree, or disagree. You have ignored them. I can only assume that you don't know anything about the issue. Experiencing it doesn't mean you actually know anything about it. I have experienced many things I don't understand and don't know how to fix. So your argument is flawed.

Now, would you please stop making silly personal attacks and deal with the issue substantively. If you know what you are talking about, then act like it. Don't keep up this charade that makes you appear to not know what you are talking about.

 

[Freedom]

How do you know that I don't qualify for that, and how do you know that I don't understand it better than you even if I did qualify for that? It may be that someone who hasn't experienced it understands it better precisely because they have not experienced it and therefore do not have emotional issues with it.

You said earlier that I claimed this, but when I asked you to show where I claimed it, you didn't. So can you please show where I claimed that experience wasn't important? As an alternative, you can apologize for being dishonest about what I said. Either will be fine with me.

Quite easily. A doctor who hasn't had a heart attack is probably far more qualified to understand heart attacks than one who has had it. They are the ones trained to diagnose it, to operate when necessary, to treat it, etc. The idea that one has to experience something to understand it has no basis in reality. (You probably know that because you aren't stupid.)

No you're not because I haven't handled it trivial or offhanded. It is becoming increasingly clear that you don't know what you are talking about. You can do nothing but make personal attacks. You have yet to interact with anything I have said. I have now twice (three times perhaps) given a list of statements and asked you to deal with them, either to clarify, agree, or disagree. You have ignored them. I can only assume that you don't know anything about the issue. Experiencing it doesn't mean you actually know anything about it. I have experienced many things I don't understand and don't know how to fix. So your argument is flawed.

Now, would you please stop making silly personal attacks and deal with the issue substantively. If you know what you are talking about, then act like it. Don't keep up this charade that makes you appear to not know what you are talking about.

These are not personal attacks. But I think we can clarify the situation by dealing with it in a more straight forward way. This is my understanding about the disease called depression. I'm talking about clinical depression not a short term case of "the blues" or sadness.

1. Clinical depression can be caused by a physical malfunctioning of the brain to deliver electrical impulses.

2. This physical problem is not yet well understood.

3. Current treatment involves medication or (rarely) electro-shock therapy. These might cure the problem, meaning that it does not reoccur, but many times it reoccurs (chronic depression).

4. This physical problem can be inherited demonstrated by the fact that 80% of the identical twins whose twin suffers from clinical depression also will have the problem.

5. One kind of depression is due to not having enough sunlight and may be seasonal. Light therapy can help.

6. Depression can also be triggered by a severely traumatic situation (death of a loved one, a serious accident like a plane crash, etc.)

7. Some think depression is a result of suppressed anger or childhood experiences and that the best treatment is psychotherapy.

8. Some think depression is a spiritual problem and may even be the result of demon possession. Bible study, prayer, or talking with a minister will solve the problem. In the case of demon possession an exorcism might be required.

9. Depression might result in overeating or drinking. Exercise is helpful. Depression can lead to staying in bed all day or being unable to sleep. Many times there is a tendency to withdraw from people.

10. Severe depression can lead to attempted to suicide.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you agree with this description? Do you have additional points to add to it?

 

[Pastor Larry]

I don't disagree with much of it at all, though the depressive gene theory is not at all conclusive (see here). On #1, I would say that we do not know enough to comment directly on that. The complexity of the human body means that we do not always know the differences between cause and effects. That is to say, that the physical issues in depression may be the result of things, not the cause of them ... that our bodies do certain things because we are depressed, not the other way around. Again, I am not being dogmatic there. I am simply saying we do not know.

I would also point out how many of your statements have to do with outlook on life. That, by and large, removes it from the realm of the physical and puts it into the spiritual. A person with SAD is likely not having physical issues. They just don't like certain types of weather and it discourages them because they hate the cold and cloudiness, they would rather be outside in the fresh air, etc. So I would caution against simplicity in this matter.

Your #9 is an interesting one. Overeating and laziness can actually be a cause of depression, not a result of it (though it can also be a result). Someone who constantly overeats and is lazy becomes increasingly depressed because they are not getting anything done, and the work piles up to the point of despair (whether despair over physical condition, housework, etc.).

So I think your list very closely mirrors mine though it has more detail.

I would call us to back to what I quoted from Ed Welch earlier, to focus on the key issues:

“If there are issues of the heart, the person won’t be able to mask them. Physical treatment will affect physical symptoms. So medication can’t give you hope. It can’t give you more love for God for your neighbor but it may have you feel a little bit different. You might feel perhaps cognitively a bit more clearer if you take medication, at its best.”

As Christians, our responsibility is the love God and love others. That doesn't change no matter how we feel about life. So our job in ministering to (i.e., counseling) depressed people is to call them to obedience with love and support.

Have you read Welch's book Blame It on the Brain?

Again, my caution is against the simplicity that does not fully explore the complex nature of humanity particularly in its spiritual dimension, and particularly in light of the biblical revelation from God about humanity and our responsibilities before God.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Someone wrote and questioned my position on SAD. As I told them, note that I said "likely" not absolutely. I am sure many if not most doctors would agree with that assessment. The truth is that SAD is a fairly rare physical issue, from all that I can tell, including the resources that you cite. It does stem from physical issues, but not nearly so often as people might think.

Remember that most doctors are not equipped to deal with non-physical problems. They have a vested interest in keeping you on the hook of physical problems/solutions to perpetuate their own ends. Furthermore, most doctors are very unfamiliar with the immaterial/spiritual part of man and therefore they can't address it. They cannot address with medicine the lack of belief, the failure to bring every thought captive to Christ, etc. They are simply ill-equipped. When these are the actual problems, they can't fix them. So while these things are not always the cause, when they are, we have to address them.

So while depression and SAD can be physical in nature, they are often not physical in nature, and that's all I have said.

Remember, my caution is against the simplistic model that so many subscribe to that says, "He feels bad, medicate him." In fact, it may be an entirely different solution that is necessary.

I have never said that there are no physical causes, such as vitamin deficiency, etc. What I have said is that the complexity of the human existence means we don't always know precisely the cause and effect. It may be the certain patterns of thought trigger physical reactions rather than physical causes triggering patterns of thought. That is the factor that is quite frequently overlooked. In times of stress, our bodies process differently. So if I have a case of mental depression, I should expect my body to need more sleep, to feel less like doing things, etc. I can overcome that with vitamins, meds, even caffeine, but I haven't addressed the real issue which is the thought process.

So I am urging us to be more complete in our thinking on this issue, not less. We have to take into full account the complexities of human existence. We cannot abide by the simplicities. So many have such a narrow view of this, and that is unfortunate.

 

[swaimj]

I heard on the raido a minister said Charles Spurgeon had long bouts with depression. Anyone know why he did?

This is the original question. After reading this thread, I have to conclude that no one knows why Spurgeon was depressed. If his body was dug up and a modern autopsy was done, a physical contributor might be found, but this would not be provable. Can I say with confidence that Spurgeon had a spiritual problem that contributed? I would not dare to sit in judgement of Sprugeon in this way. When I counsel another person, I should be careful, because I do not know why they are depressed either. Do I have the ability to look into their soul and see what is there? Do I have the ability to examine their physical state and see if they are healthy? Do I have the ability to review all of their circumstances to determine a cause? No to all of these. So, I should love them. I should encourage them. I should pray for them. When all is said and done, I cannot fix them. Most of all I should refrain from the certainty that I detect from some on this thread. It is beyond my capability to know the condition of another person's inner man with certainty.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Well said, SwaimJ. My sentiments exactly. We must refrain from dogmatism because we do not know enough about the complexities involved. We must love people, pray for them, cry with them, minister to them, and call them to obedience to God no matter their condition.

 

[Freedom]

This is the original question. After reading this thread, I have to conclude that no one knows why Spurgeon was depressed. If his body was dug up and a modern autopsy was done, a physical contributor might be found, but this would not be provable. Can I say with confidence that Spurgeon had a spiritual problem that contributed? I would not dare to sit in judgement of Sprugeon in this way. When I counsel another person, I should be careful, because I do not know why they are depressed either. Do I have the ability to look into their soul and see what is there? Do I have the ability to examine their physical state and see if they are healthy? Do I have the ability to review all of their circumstances to determine a cause? No to all of these. So, I should love them. I should encourage them. I should pray for them. When all is said and done, I cannot fix them. Most of all I should refrain from the certainty that I detect from some on this thread. It is beyond my capability to know the condition of another person's inner man with certainty.

I would agree that there is no way we can reliably answer this question. Since we don't yet understand the physical causes of depression or the gene(s) involved we could not ascertain a physical problem by exhuming the body. His family, friends and associates could have given us insight into any emotional/pshcholical causes but I'm, not aware that this information exists.

 

[swaimj]

Since we don't yet understand the physical causes of depression or the gene(s) involved...

This statement assumes that the causes for depression are physical in nature. I think this presupposition is questionable at best and is somewhat surprising coming from a person who would have, I presume, a Christian world-view. Is everything that we see in the natural world the result of natural causes or are there unseen spiritual forces at work that impact on reality? Is depression fully the result of physical causes or can there be a spiritual element to it? This statement seems to indicate that depression is either physical or genetic. Those are possible influences, but they are not the only options. Could it not also be true that we cannot answer the question because we cannot peer into a person's soul.

 

[TomVols]

Swaimj, you did a better job at saying what I was trying to say

 

[Jim1999]

I don't know why Spurgeon suffered with depression. All I do know about the man, is that he was more productive than most preachers of to-day. He wrote more books of spiritual value; he had more sermons published; his church never called for his resignation; and he is prolly the most quoted preacher of all time.

We can only speculate on his depression and quote what was reported by his wife.
From the spiritual point of view, Vernon Grounds produced one of the best books on the topic in the form a series of lectures at Ontario Bible College (Toronto, Ont., Canada) Emotional Problems and the Gospel, Zondervan, 1976.

I do know this; It isn't pleasant, whatever the cause.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Jedi Knight]

A.W. Tozer once said, “The man that God would use greatly he hurts deeply.”

 

[Freedom]

This statement assumes that the causes for depression are physical in nature. I think this presupposition is questionable at best and is somewhat surprising coming from a person who would have, I presume, a Christian world-view. Is everything that we see in the natural world the result of natural causes or are there unseen spiritual forces at work that impact on reality? Is depression fully the result of physical causes or can there be a spiritual element to it? This statement seems to indicate that depression is either physical or genetic. Those are possible influences, but they are not the only options. Could it not also be true that we cannot answer the question because we cannot peer into a person's soul.

In the Middle Ages, nothing was known about the true nature of any disease. We've learned a lot since then about medicine. Why do you choose to hang on to unproven theories about this one? I've said we really don't know what the cause of depression is. If you have some proof that it doesn't have a physical cause I'd be interested in listening.

 

[Jedi Knight]

FREEDOM "I've said we really don't know what the cause of depression is. If you have some proof that it doesn't have a physical cause I'd be interested in listening." Proverbs 12:25 Anxiety in the heart of man causes depression :tear:But a good word makes it glad. I believe this was written under divine inspiration and stick with it.