Freedom, I can't prove a negative. Not only can I not prove that depression does not have a physical cause, I also cannot prove that it is not caused by little green men or invisible fairies. You, however, have stated that depression has either a physical or a genetic cause. The burden of proof is on you.
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Why was Spurgeon depressed?
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
- Start date
No, because I said science has not advanced to the point where it understands the causes of this illness. That kind of statement does not require proof. It says neither I nor medical science knows. I believe you questioned my faith because I did not agree with your unproven theory that depression is entirely a spiritual problem.
This statement assumes that the causes for depression are physical in nature. I think this presupposition is questionable at best and is somewhat surprising coming from a person who would have, I presume, a Christian world-view.
I expect an apology unless you can prove that.
Freedom, I have not questioned your faith. I am not upset with you because you don't agree with me that depression is purely spiritual because I have not said that I think it is purely spiritual and I doubt that it is purely spiritual. However, this statement of yours
seems to assume that the cause is purely physical or genetic. If I am misunderstanding you, I apologize, but I derived this from the statement you made. So let me ask you clearly, do you think that depression is solely physical/genetic, or do you think it is solely spiritual, or do you think it is a combination of both elements?
This statement assumes that the causes for depression are physical in nature. I think this presupposition is questionable at best and is somewhat surprising coming from a person who would have, I presume, a Christian world-view.
My theory is depression is the result of an unresolved conflict.
What unresolved conflict might Spurgeon have had?
Like many others who have a compassion for humanity and our salvation, his unresloved conflict might have been for those who rejected the gospel of the love of God through the atonement of His Son.
HankD
What unresolved conflict might Spurgeon have had?
Like many others who have a compassion for humanity and our salvation, his unresloved conflict might have been for those who rejected the gospel of the love of God through the atonement of His Son.
HankD
I wonder how that compares with how Jesus felt before dying on the cross?
THere are lots of theories but no real scientific proof. Therefore, it makes no sense for someone to question the "Christian worldview" of someone who has a different theory. Don't you agree?
There is some evidence that Spurgeon's bouts of depression arose from his many bodily afflictions as evidenced in his personal correspondence:
Jan 10, 1884 "I am altogether stranded. I am not able to leave my bed, or to find much rest upon it. The pains of rheumatism, lumbago and sciatica, mingled together, are exceedingly sharp. I am aware I am dwelling in a body capable of the most acute suffering."
Then, a letter to Susannah, "After the deadly chill of Thursday night at Nice, I feel gout coming on,,my left foot is badly swollen, and the knee joint is following suit. I have had very little sleep, and am very low......"
Just some samples of his thinking.
Cheers,
Jim
Jan 10, 1884 "I am altogether stranded. I am not able to leave my bed, or to find much rest upon it. The pains of rheumatism, lumbago and sciatica, mingled together, are exceedingly sharp. I am aware I am dwelling in a body capable of the most acute suffering."
Then, a letter to Susannah, "After the deadly chill of Thursday night at Nice, I feel gout coming on,,my left foot is badly swollen, and the knee joint is following suit. I have had very little sleep, and am very low......"
Just some samples of his thinking.
Cheers,
Jim
Hi Jim.
His thoughts and these physical indications could still be the result of a long standing unresolved conflict which could lead to deprived REM sleep which in turn can result in neurological damage, a compromised immune system and a host of psychosomatic but very real diseases.
John Bunyan also recounts of several bouts of depression and diseases including waking in the night thrashing.
He would go out into the fields wandering so as not to disturb his family.
One of his fixations was the lost and their endless suffering.
He wrote a piece called Sighs From Hell, the Groans of a Lost Soul. 1658.
It is depressing just to read it and one can feel the pain of his soul.
Who knows the mental pain and anguish these men suffered in their ministries to fallen humanity.
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/56331
HankD
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Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Freedom,
I can assure you that I have intended no offense to you personally. In the last post that you made dealing with your offense, you quoted me twice. I'm sorry, but I still don't understand what you are offended over. If you want to explain it here or in a PM, feel free and I will be happy to respond by either method.
I can assure you that I have intended no offense to you personally. In the last post that you made dealing with your offense, you quoted me twice. I'm sorry, but I still don't understand what you are offended over. If you want to explain it here or in a PM, feel free and I will be happy to respond by either method.
Well, to a degree I can agree. But this is a debate forum and opinions and real time experiences (which I have) as well as factual evidence (which I have cited) are legitimate elements of a debate.
I'm not exactly sure brother what you mean by "for someone to question the 'Christian worldview'". Did you mean "for someone to question another's Christian worldview"?
Again this is a debate forum, and if someone enters into a debate in a this kind of forum it is a given as well as an invitation that their view will be questioned evidentially, experientially, logically and even with an educated (or not) opinion (and in a Christian Forum without insult or innuendo of course).
HankD
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I agree with you Freedom. I believe that clinical depression is an illness that may respond to medication. The tendency of some people, including pastors, to discount depression as an illness and blame it on some spiritual condition is very sad
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I disagree with practically everything you have written in the above post. It borders on an attitude of disdain regarding those who suffer from clinical depression. Would you have the same attitude toward someone suffering from cancer?
You are apparently speaking from the viewpoint of one who has had no experience with clinical depression or anyone who has clinical depression. All too often people, and sadly more often than not Christians, are too quick to say that depression is a spiritual problem rather than a physical/mental problem.
If one has cancer we don't blame that on a spiritual failure, we want them to get medical attention. Then why should not want medical attention for those who suffer from depression?
It is true that not enough is known about the causes of depression, just as not enough is known about the causes of cancer. However, medical research has produced some medications that do relieve depression so medical science is gaining some knowledge.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Serotonin shortage and/or genetic disposed to serotonian miss-management. The key kicking off the episodes was probably speaking at night and the candles and other fire type light put off bad petro-chems that inhibit serotonin re-uptake in the brain's synapses.
But, hey, I'm just guessing :smilewinkgrin: He was before my time,
Bbefore candle polution was known, before synapses were known, before serotonin re-uptake in the brain was discovered.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Amen, Brother OldRegular -- Preach it!
Go study SSRIs (there are several chems that help).
SSRI = Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRI)
I knew a person that took two Antiacid tablets every meal. She did so from diagnosis of her condition (for 17 years) until her demise. And she knew she had to take it until she died. No problem, she didn't die of lack of stomach lining, nobody hassled her about salvation.
I knew a person that took the old depression med: Lithium, (this was back in the 1970s, she probably would be diagnosed as bi-polar now and take newer bi-polar specific meds) She keep thinking the Lord wanted her to get off and had renewed episodes until her heart failed. Well-MEAN-ing 'religious' people told her she wansn't saved cause she was depressed. Sorry, she was clinically-depressed, not spiritually lost.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Ed
I really appreciate your information and viewpoint. It turns out that Lithium, though an old medicine for bi-polar [formerly manic-depressive] is still used sort of as a last resort. I had a man in my Sunday School class who had suffered with this disease for many years. He tried some of the newer meds but Lithium was the only one that worked for him. One side affect of Lithium is weight gain [as is the case with other meds for depression]. Sadly he eventually took his own life a few years ago. The severe episodes became too much for him.
Incidentally he was an engineer.
I had another person in my Sunday School class who suffered from depression. He routinely went off his medication because he thought, probably at the urging of some well meaning Christian, that his faith was weak because he took meds for depression. Each time he would wind up in the VA hospital. I believe it finally got through to him: take your meds!
Let's try it on for size. Since you claim to have a Christian worldview, I'm surprised that you're so callous towards those who suffer from depression.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Unfortunately the well-MEAN-ing (ignorant but trying to be helpful, but the results are the same as what MEAN people do :-( ) still operate. By contrast I (when I was like 55) had a 69-year-old man in my Sunday School Class who went to the VA about twice a quarter (every 6 weeks) the last three years of his life for pnemonia. That is perfectly alright, (even though he had COPD and smoked the last day before the went to the VA for the last time). In this case it was obvious that his disregard for logic and his own life made no difference -- he was as saved as he said he was.
I didn't know some still used Lithium. Recall that 7-up originally had Lithium.
Ok I see how some believe it's more a health/physical issue. I just wonder if the doctor were to say "your fretting,here take 2 of these and call me in the morning." If the Psalms share deep feelings of depression like "oh my soul why are you so cast down..hope in God". Hope can help depression and its just like fear,worry anxiety,fretting,or any emotion.