Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
And you suceeded! :thumbsup:
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Why was Spurgeon depressed?
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
- Start date
And you suceeded! :thumbsup:
Understood and for the most part, accepted OR.
My "issue" is not primarily the content of the posts concering this matter but the quality just as you implied. We are all flawed because of our flesh.
You stated one kind of demonstration of an ad hominem reponse, I reminded you that there are others as well. We are all guilty (IMO).
I gave my opinion a while back as I have had first hand experience with more than just clinical depression.
As a Christian young man, I had entered into a psychotic state of depression for several years.
My feeling is (and of course it may be flawed) that depression of any kind is mostly spiritual. But then again, this is from a post-mortem point of view.
IMO, We really are not able to trace back the series of events that lead to depression. It is difficult to know if a physical disease is the cause or effect of depression.
For instance, did Spurgeon's gout arise out of a poor diet?
Did even Spurgeon, that strong man of God, need pleasure from a diet too rich in animal fat and protein to ease his pain of soul and thereby causing the gout?
Or was it an element of heredity and the physical pain caused the depression. A mineral imbalance beyond his control?
So, I don't completely discount the physical as the root but rather I am opinionated that generally the spiritual problem leads to the physical manifestations.
There are Scripture that support my theory:
Isaiah 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.
Proverbs 3
19 The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.
20 By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew.
21 My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion:
22 So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck.
23 Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble.
24 When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet.
25 Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh.
26 For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.
20 By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew.
21 My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion:
22 So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck.
23 Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble.
24 When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet.
25 Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh.
26 For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.
In my own case, the after affect which took several years to accomplish, was the forced weaning of my heart mind and soul from the things of this world.
There was a dichotomy of my thinking.
After some time of this misery, I longed for the state and was even jealous of those who were walking in the joy of the Lord which I had previously enjoyed. It later was restored and has became a prescious blessing to be highly protected.
After some time of this misery, I longed for the state and was even jealous of those who were walking in the joy of the Lord which I had previously enjoyed. It later was restored and has became a prescious blessing to be highly protected.
On the other hand I came to realize the trivia and smallness of the concerns of this world by which we are so easily overtaken.
Later, after my restoration, I judged myself as having fallen under this Scripture:
1 Corinthians 11
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
IMO, our focus should be the resoration of the afflicted brother/sister with this advise FWIW: I can't speak for every afflicted soul, but in my own case I was puzzled by brethren who thought I had any control whatsoever over my state of emotional well being.
The non-churched professionals and technicians (for the most part) knew full well I was helpless. "Spiritual" didn't enter the picture. In fact they were sympathic and understanding which contributed somewhat to my healing. I can remember some of them even holding my hand and speaking kindly to me. On the rare occassion that a brother or sister showed this kind of empathy the lifting of my spirit was greatly magnified.
James 5
13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
HankD
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I have never claimed to be an expert on clinical depression and you are perfectly aware of that: so you squeezed a little more vinegar. That is OK. I have plenty left. But do I detect a little pious arrogance in you and Bryant?
I doubt that anyone could claim to be an expert on clinical depression, even those who make the study of mental illness their life's work. The mind is just too complex.
In my opinion the worst thing that can happen to someone with clinical depression is some pious person accusing them of lack of faith or having a spiritual problem.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
HankD
Thanks for your post. I have never experienced what I call clinical depression but I am very close to some who do and deal with it on a daily basis.
I have no doubt that spiritual problems can cause someone to feel depressed, assuming they are indeed children of God. It is entirely possible that such problems and subsequent feeling of depression, left unresolved, could initiate what I call clinical depression, which I believe is caused by certain chemical imbalances in the brain. Perhaps that is the case with you. I don't know. I doubt that anyone really knows.
I simply reject out of hand the idea that all clinical depression is caused by a spiritual problem. In my opinion it is completely counter productive to tell one who is clinically depressed that they have a spiritual problem or are lacking in faith. That smacks of the Word of Faith doctrine to me.
I do know that there are medicines that can alleviate clinical depression which to me indicates a physical problem. I don't know of any medicine, other than that administered by God, that can heal a spiritual problem.
Having read of your experiences and knowing some who have clinical depression I certainly apologize to you if I have offended you in any way by some of my posts. It is certainly heartening to read of your recovery. Though you and I have disagreed before we have always had a civil discussion and sometimes been forced to agree to disagree.
Finally I want to say this. I believe that all healing ultimately comes from God. I just believe that most often, but not always, he uses doctors to accomplish that healing.
Thanks for your post. I have never experienced what I call clinical depression but I am very close to some who do and deal with it on a daily basis.
I have no doubt that spiritual problems can cause someone to feel depressed, assuming they are indeed children of God. It is entirely possible that such problems and subsequent feeling of depression, left unresolved, could initiate what I call clinical depression, which I believe is caused by certain chemical imbalances in the brain. Perhaps that is the case with you. I don't know. I doubt that anyone really knows.
I simply reject out of hand the idea that all clinical depression is caused by a spiritual problem. In my opinion it is completely counter productive to tell one who is clinically depressed that they have a spiritual problem or are lacking in faith. That smacks of the Word of Faith doctrine to me.
I do know that there are medicines that can alleviate clinical depression which to me indicates a physical problem. I don't know of any medicine, other than that administered by God, that can heal a spiritual problem.
Having read of your experiences and knowing some who have clinical depression I certainly apologize to you if I have offended you in any way by some of my posts. It is certainly heartening to read of your recovery. Though you and I have disagreed before we have always had a civil discussion and sometimes been forced to agree to disagree.
Finally I want to say this. I believe that all healing ultimately comes from God. I just believe that most often, but not always, he uses doctors to accomplish that healing.
It's obvious your ingnorance of scripture and "overdose" of trust in depression as medical rather than emotional & spiritual is silly.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
It is obvious that your pious arrogance exceeds your ability to spell.
Furthermore, it is usually those who are most arrogant about their knowledge of Scripture who are the least learned. I have found that the more one knows about God, as revealed in His Word, the more humble they become. Humility is obviously not one of your finer traits.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Perhaps I spoke too quickly and generalized too much if you can comprehend.
Hi OR. We are in pretty close agreement on this one. Obviously we (humankind) are physical and spiritual beings, the two elements only separating at physical death.
the order of events and cause and effect coming out of these two are often difficult to discern externally.
This is the first time I have spoken publicly of my problems of 30 plus years ago.
But it might help someone else. So I have given this recounting.
Later in life I discovered that I have Celiac's disease.
This is also known as gluten intolerance or sprue. It is a digestive/assimilation disorder.
One's villi are destroyed (but they will rejuvenate after a gluten free diet is maintained) by the gluten which is present in wheat products (and a few other grains).
The purpose of these villi is to absorb certain nutrients and minerals to supply to the body.
Long term or severe Celiac will cause a brain mineral deficiency and can result in attacks of paranoid schizophrenia at a pyschotic level.
I don't know that Celiac caused my problems but I believe it certainly exacerbated them.
You have never offended me OR after all as I told Freedom, this is a debate forum. My philosophy is the one which says, if I can't take the heat, I get out of the kitchen.
HankD
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So your not "arrogant" yourself to call some of us "heretics" or "pathetic" because we don't see depression as you do? Can you can see clearly to remove this speck from my eye?
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Can you identify the post where I called anyone a heretic?
Your point was clear.
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Here is a short portion of a lecture that will be helpful to all here. It is a portion of a class on counseling, and this particular point deals with suffering, which is at the heart of depression (clinical or not).
This particular lecture does not deal directly with depression (that comes later), but it does deal with some foundational issues that I think some here are missing in their simplicity. There is also a link to some workbook pages that correspond to the lecture.
This particular lecture does not deal directly with depression (that comes later), but it does deal with some foundational issues that I think some here are missing in their simplicity. There is also a link to some workbook pages that correspond to the lecture.