Why Would a Pastor Condone Freemasonry

[Ben W]

Here is a point that I think is worthy of considering. Lets assume that we put Freemasons in the basket of a "cult".

Based around our perception of what it is that they teach and the way that they do whatever things.

Based on the same reasoning, how many of these groups are then Cults?

Boy Scouts, Girl Guides, Oddfellows, Elks, the Buffaloes, College Fraternities or Fraternities in general?

With Boy Scouts a belief in God is mandatory and they have gone to the point of having a court case put on them which we did talk alot about here, concerning the young 19 year old that said he was an Athiest yet wished to remain in the Scouts. (Never did hear how that was all resolved by the way, any clues?)

Scouts are often sponsored by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and other religious groups. Yet the Mormons do appear to have quite a vested interest in some scouting groups.

With the other fraternities lets pick on the Elks and the Oddfellows, there is ample evidence to prove that they came out of Freemason circles. Not having looked closely, but I am led to believe that the Elks do have some type of set ritual.

So to be blunt, if by the claims made against the Freemasons, are not rightly all the other groups tarred with the same brush also?

 

[Jude]

I found this on the web. Is it accurate?

"The Interfaith Witness Department reaffirms its position taken in 1986; Freemasonry is NOT a religion. We, therefore, with no hesitation, recommend the following: that the Southern Baptist Convention take a position neither for nor against Freemasonry and its related branches, and that membership in Freemasonry be left with the judgment of the individual.
The 1993 Southern Baptist Convention voted not to condemn the freemasonry."

 

[Jacob Webber]

I believe so Jude I will have to do some searching again. But if you have seen some of the other post the Anti-Masonic folks say it is just a cop out due to so many Southern Baptist Preaches being Freemasons. Again Dr. Gary Leazer was one of the researches for the SBC. He wrote a book on the Study of Freemasonry that the SBC did call Fudimentlism and Freemasonry (The Sothern Baptist Investigation of the Frateral Order By: Gary Leazer Ph.D.) Latter he became a Freemason.

 

[Ben W]

Do you have a link for it Jude? I would have a look at who they are in the berean fashion so that I would have some discernment of who they are in order to form an opinion.

 

[D28guy]

JacobWeber,

You said, regarding the SBC choosing not to "condemn" freemasonry...

"it is just a cop out due to so many Southern Baptist Preaches being Freemasons."

Very sadly, I have to say I believe you hit the nail right on the head there.

Mike

 

[Dr. Bob]

I have started a separate thread on the Marks of a Cult, based on the work of Josh McDowell. These would apply to groups that are based (roughly) on Christianity.

Cults are thus divided:

CULTS/RELIGIONS FROM CHRISTIAN SOURCES
Jehovah's Witness
Latter Day Saints (Mormon)
Christian Science
Adventism
Unitarian
World Wide Church of God
Masonic Lodge
Charismatic/Neo-Pentecostalism

CULTS/RELIGIONS FROM PHILOSOPHICAL SOURCES
Rosicrucian
Theosophy
Scientology
Secular Humanism
Existentialism

CULTS/RELIGIONS FROM POLITICAL SOURCES
British Israelism
Moral Rearmament
Marxism
National Socialism
Zionism

CULTS/RELIGIONS FROM EASTERN SOURCES
Hare Krishna & Krishna Consciousness
Transcendental Meditation (TM)
Black Muslim
Ba'Hai
Ekantar
Unity
Unification (Moonies) Church
The Way International
Children of God

CULTS/RELIGIONS FROM OCCULT SOURCES
New Age Religions
Astrology
Satanism/Witchcraft
Pantheism

CULTS/RELIGIONS FROM TRIBAL SOURCES
Animism
Indian Tribal Religions

 

[D28guy]

Dr Bob,

I'm curious why Roman Catholicism is not included on your list.

Here is the list from the CARM(Christian Apologetics and Research ministry) web-site. Look who they group the Roman Catholic church in with...

RELIGIOUS MOVEMENTS

Christadelphianism
Christian Science
How to have perfect faith
Intern. Church of Christ
Islam
Jehovah's Witnesses
Mormonism
New Age Movement
Oneness Pentecostal
Open Theism
Roman Catholicism
Seventh Day Adventism
Shepherd's Chapel
Universalism

3 of the most common characteristics of cults are a denial of justification by faith alone, extrabiblical revelation, and an earthly leader who is a unique singular earthly "Christlike" figure.

Faith alone:

* We all know that Catholics vehemently deny the truth uf justification through faith alone, and teach a works justification system.

Extra biblical revelation:

* Just like the JW's Watchtower publication and the Mormons Book of Mormon(and Doctrines and Covenants), the authority the catholics give the Teaching Majesterium is in essence the same thing.

Earthly "Christlike" figure:

* The Pope fills the same role that people like Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russel, David Koresh and Jim Jones played in their groups.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Jacob Webber]

(the Anti-Masonic folks say it is just a cop out due to so many Southern Baptist Preaches being Freemasons)


D28guy if you quote me, quote the whole thing not what may suit an anti-masonic stance.

Dr. Bob I will read you post and get back to you.

 

[Jacob Webber]

1) NEW TRUTH - Revelation from God is continuing and THEY have it in their own writings

Are you saying Freemasonry is receiving new messages form God. and if so could you state which Ritual is doing this.

2) NEW INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE - Cultic writing is key to understanding the mysteries of the Bible. Reinterpret Scripture to fit cult doctrine

Again could you show me in the Ritual were Freemasonry has reinterpret Scripture

3) NEW JESUS - He is less than God or man is elevated to His level as "gods"

Again were is this at in Ritual

4) NEW CHRISTIANITY - Church is fine but not enough. New organization with new knowledge, riturals and rites

Freemasonry does not teach that salvation. But going to Church is not enough one must accept Christ. Going to church and never accepting Christ will not help at all.

5) NEW LANGUAGE - Good sounding words for public consumption vs. a private language that is very different

Example Please

6) NEW GOD - replacing Triune Godhead with someone or something else; satan, spirits, gods or goddesses or even man himself

YHWH is the God of Freemasonry and the SBC says Freemasonry states in the Study God in the Three fold aspect of the Trinity. But Freemasonry does not replace my God at any moment.

7) NEW THEOLOGY - no absolutes, lip service to the Bible but reinterpret it

Lamb Skin Lecture is a reminder that we must be without sin to enter Heaven, This seems pretty absolute. And were does it give lip service to Scripture

8) NEW LEADERSHIP - strong leaders with unique access to God; total dependence on man, not God

Please give an example

9) NEW SALVATION - emphasis on works/ritual to do or follow; salvation only in the cult

Freemasonry states that Freemasonry can not get you to Heaven.

Statement from TN Grand Lodge
39. Do Masons believe that by doing good works they can gain admittance to heaven?


No. The admittance into heaven falls in the realm of the spiritual, not the fraternal.


SBC states that Freemasonry says the following. Faith in the Merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah(Rev 5:5) is how we gain admittence into Heaven. So faith in the Merits of Jesus is how we gain admittance into Heaven.

 

[D28guy]

JacobWeber,

Sorry about that. It wasnt intentional, I was short on time and scanning through a bunch of posts in a hurry.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Marcia]

I have a problem with a statement John Ankleburg made: He said anyone who believes in Allah believes in a False god. I was watching his show and He was talking to a converted Muslim who lived in New York big guy who I found was very informative needless to say I like the Big Fella he a good person. For some reason Ankleburg seems to think YHWH is less of a God when a Muslim call Him God. If someone does not see the full aspects of God it does not make God any less I do not understand how someone can say just because a person does not see God in the Threefold aspect of the Trinty some how they have the power to reduce God it is not possible. And how does this make an Arimaic Christian feel when they are told that they worship a false God because they use the Word Allah. Allah means YHWH.

Jacob, if the word "Allah" is being used just to say "God" in a generic sense, then it has not more meaning than the generic use of God anywhere. However, if "Allah" is being used to mean the God of Islam, which is what Ankerberg was talking about, then yes, it's true that the God of Islam (however he may be called) is not the God of the Bible. The Islamic God is not at all like the God of the Bible.

 

[Jacob Webber]

Marcia
Allah is the generic word god. Both Muslim and Jew can not say the name of God. Both believe God is YHWH but hold His name so high that they will not say it. Allah comes from the Hebrew Word Elohim I believe. niether believe Christ is the Messiah as we do. Arabic Christians use Allah when talking about YHWH God in the Threefold aspect of the Trinity. YHWH is misrepresented in the Koran because Muhamed did not fully understand YHWH. We as Christians do to a point there is still much about God we do not know.

 

[Marcia]

Jacob, I realize that Arabic Christians use the term "Allah" for God, that is why I said when "Allah" just means God there is no problem.

However, the God of Islam is NOT the God of the Bible. He's unknowable, is inconsistent in his actions, is arbitrary, is not God the Father, and when you die, you don't even know if you will be in paradise because the Islamic god gives no assurance of that (unless you become a martyr but I am not sure if that is from the Koran or not).

The God of Islam basically has nothing in common with the God of the Bible who has revealed his attributes, who is a triniterian Godhead, who is God the Father, who is consistent, and who does give us assurance of being with Him through Christ.

 

[Jacob Webber]

Marcia
Just because Muhamed had a misconception of God does not mean God of Abraham is false it means Muhamed did not understand Him. Just as before someone acepts Jesus they pray and worship YHWH but they do not have a relationship with Him until they ascept Christ. Does that mean they were worshiping and praing to Satan before they became a Christian or were they praying and worshiping YHWH with out understanding.

 

[D28guy]

Just for the record, his name is John Ankerberg, rather then Ankleberg.

Mike

 

[Marcia]

Just because Muhamed had a misconception of God does not mean God of Abraham is false it means Muhamed did not understand Him. Just as before someone acepts Jesus they pray and worship YHWH but they do not have a relationship with Him until they ascept Christ. Does that mean they were worshiping and praing to Satan before they became a Christian or were they praying and worshiping YHWH with out understanding.

I don't think Mohammed had a misconception of God; I think he was worshiping and believing in the wrong God, just as I had the wrong God when I was a New Ager, just as the Christian Scientists have the wrong God, just as the Unity Church has the wrong God, etc. If Islam was worshiping the true God, they would believe in Christ. If Mohammed had been seeking or praying to the true God, it would have led to Christ, but it didn't. Mohammed said Jesus was just a prophet and that his (Mohammed) revelations superceded those of Jesus. So we can conclude he was worshiping a false God.

Mohammed came to found Islam after encounters in a cave with a spirit entity that was possessing him. He was scared but his wife told him to go back to the cave, so he did. It's a lot like Joseph Smith and his encounter with Jesus/God/whoever (depends on which of his many accounts you believe is the true one. Both Mohammed and J. Smith started religions based on encounters with spirit beings who were not from God.


From SOURCE

Question: Dr. Labib, is Allah of the Muslims the God of Christians?

I would say that it can't be that way. There is only one true God, who revealed Himself in the Bible, through His prophets. And if we compare between the God of the Christians, and Allah of the Muslims and of the Quran, we will see a lot of differences. There is a difference in the attributes of Allah, and the Attributes of God of the Christians. There is a difference in the commandment of Allah of the Muslims and the commandments of the God of the Christians. There is a difference in the plan of salvation prepared by the God of the Christians, and the plan of salvation in Islam. And I might say here that the word 'salvation' was never ever mentioned in the whole Quran. Then lastly I would say that the god head in Islam is different than the god head in Christianity.

From Journal of Lutheran Ethics at
Do Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?

When Islam identifies "Allah," it does so in two ways. First, Muhammad is the final and perfect prophet of "Allah." There were other "prophets" familiar to Jews and Christians, including Moses and Jesus. But Muhammad is final because, and this is the second way in which "Allah" is identified, the final will and word of "Allah" was dictated to Muhammad and is absolute in the Qur'an, the book of Islam. Because the Qur'an is final and perfect it is beyond critique.

The article above has more - it's only one page and well worth reading.

 

[Jacob Webber]

Islam is a religion based on a Misconception of YHWH. Muhamed said His God was YHWH(Yod Heh Vau Heh) God of Abraham the same God that Isaic, Jacob, Moses, and David worshiped. But do to His misunderstanding of God he created a false religion.

 

[Jacob Webber]

D28guy

My spelling is not that great sometimes thanks for the correction.

 

[O.F.F.]

Ben, you said:

Here is a point that I think is worthy of considering. Let's assume that we put Freemasons in the basket of a "cult".

We need not assume Freemasonry is a cult, we know that it is by definition. As I showed everyone earlier, since their religious teachings deviate from what is taught in the Bible, they are a "cult" from a biblical perspective.

Based around our perception of what it is that they teach and the way that they do whatever things.

This is not mere perception, what myself and other Ex-Masons for Jesus have explained here is based on facts according to our firsthand experience as members of the Masonic Order.

Based on the same reasoning, how many of these groups are then Cults? Boy Scouts, Girl Guides, Oddfellows, Elks, the Buffaloes, College Fraternities or Fraternities in general? ... So to be blunt, if by the claims made against the Freemasons, are not rightly all the other groups tarred with the same brush also?

As mentioned earlier, Freemasonry is the archetype for virtually all other fraternal orders. You are right about the Elks, Oddfellows and Buffaloes, their teachings are similar to that of Freemasonry because their rituals are similar.

As for all the rest you mentioned, if they teach or imply that all concepts of God are the same, which most of them do, then they too would classify as a "cult" in my opinion.

Jacob, the following questions are for you, although others are free to respond:

Hindus worship Brahman, Vishnu, Shiva, some even worship Cows as god, etc.

Mormons worship a god which was once a man living on another planet.

Parsees (Zoroastrians) worship a dualistic god, Ahura Mazda (good) and Angra Mainyu {evil).

And, since I've included Angra Mainyu, note that the Church of Satan worships Satan as god.

Muslims worship Allah (as Marcia has very well explained, NOT the God of the Bible).

Christians worship the God of the Bible, the Trinitarian God who is Father, Son (Jesus Christ) and Holy Spirit.

A man who is a member of each of these religions is eligible for Masonic membership based upon his faith in "A" Supreme Being.

Are each of these Gods listed above, all the same God; or are these Gods separate Gods? In other words, do all Masons worship the same God, or do the Masons of different religions worship different Gods?

Mike

 

[Jacob Webber]

(A man who is a member of each of these religions is eligible for Masonic membership based upon his faith in "A" Supreme Being)

Actualy Mike depending on the Grnad Lodge in TN anyone who is a member of a church that says polygamy is ok can not be made a Mason.

And not all Masons worship the same God. But in the Ritual work the God there in is YHWH. So as far as anything the Ritual says it is refering to YHWH but if another person does not believe in YHWH than they do not take it as saying YHWH as it did in the beginning of Freemasonry because at first it seems it was a Christian only Frat.

Again from what I have read it seems that instead of using the word god they used YHWH than some Jews wanted to join but the Jews could not say the name of God, YHWH so it was changed to just God. Latter since it was a Frat with mason working tools. They took the term Great Aritect of the Universe from John Calvin.