Will a Christian ever go to hell?

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
This is a simple equation James. Either Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for our sin or it wasn't. Either He paid all or we still have to pay in whole or in part.

Allow me to "muddy up" the question if I may. Do you (Scott, Michelle, Bob, et. al.) believe that God chastens his children. Yes or no? Now that is a simple question.</font>[/QUOTE] Yes. And chastisement is not a payment for sin. Chastisement is for discipline:

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

If chastening in this life is not contrary to grace, (Christ paid it all, so why chasten us for sins already paid for?) why would chastening in the next (If there be such a thing) be contrary to that same grace.

It is by God's design and purpose for His glory alone that He saves and sanctifies us.

That is clear doctrine. So where do they go if they miss the kingdom? That's clear too.

That is not clear doctrine. That is an interpretation that depends on taking various scriptures out of context as James did with Hebrews 10:27.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Lacy, you are correct according to Romans 8:1.

Dr. Bob saying there is no condemnation upon Christians. That is true. IF unless, it says, "who walk NOT after the flesh, but after the Spirit." There is a promise to us, no judgment or punishment on us, IF we walk after the Spirit. That means, we must be pure life, and holy be like Christ - 1 Peter 1:15-16. Or, if we walk after the flesh - wicked and sinful life, we shall be judged.

There are lot of conditional warnings in the Bible.

Anyone of you seems not answer my question few days ago. I ask you the same questions again:

Who give a talent to a servant?

Who is a servant?

Does Christ give a talent to a UNbeliever?

Will a lazy servant send into hell? - Matt. 25:30

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

The chastenment of Hebrews chapter 12 deals about our life, not beyond after our death. It tells us, if there is no chasten upon a person, then a person is not true saved in the first place - vs. 8.

In fact, many of us who were not saved yet, we do not feel chasten comes from God, because we do not feel guilty, or having fear. Because, the Holy Spirit is not yet dwell in us till, we hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, then repent and accept Christ. Then, Holy Spirit starts to working in us, will cause us feel guilty and having real fear from God. Will face problems and temptations. Once a person received Christ, will be immediately into spiritual warfare. Christ is dealing with a person who already hear the gospel, believed, repent, and received, to discipline with a person. Discipling a person of Hebrews chapter 12 deals about our lifetime, not beyond after our death.

Remember, Hebrews 10:27 tells us, ONCE for all people to die AFTER this judgment. That means, once a person die with repent or without repent, already face the conclusion, there is no promise for being released from it. That's it. 2 Cor. 6:2 tells us, it is right now - today of salvation, we must making decision, and repent of our sins daily, or if we stopped repent, and believing Christ, remain in sins without repent by the all the way till our death, then once after we die, it will be too late for us to have another chance to repent of sins.

I never see find anywhere in the Bible saying a lazy servant shall be released out of the outer darkness beyond.

Obivously, the outer darkness is hell, that place shall be cast into the lake of fire shall be an eternality place.

Also, there is none verse anywhere in the Bible saying that an outer darkness is a temporary. No way, that you can find a verse in the Bible to prove that an outer darkness is a temporary. Many Christians understand 'outer darkness' is an obivously speak of eternality punishment. No way, that you would deny 'outer darkness' is an eternality place, because of Christ saying so.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
There is a promise to us, no judgment or punishment on us, IF we walk after the Spirit. That means, we must be pure life, and holy be like Christ - 1 Peter 1:15-16. Or, if we walk after the flesh - wicked and sinful life, we shall be judged.

There are lot of conditional warnings in the Bible.

And hell is that judgment for ME and for MY sin?

YOU'RE RIGHT! And Jesus PAID IT ALL, ALL to Him I owe . . .

Does Christ give a talent to a UNbeliever?

Will a lazy servant send into hell? - Matt. 25:30

Please show me the scripture where CHRIST gave a talent to the unbeliever? Now we know He told stories about such, but I am missing the place where YOU are getting the FACT from - where Jesus Himself gives talents to unbelievers. Thanks for the reference.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Dr. Bob,

I reading your post at other topic about servant. You saying it is netural servant. Netural???

Who give us the responsiblity to use the talents?

You asking me, to find where fact in the Bible saying Christ give talents to unbelievers. In the first place, you do not believe Christian shall send into hell of Matt. 25:30. Secondly, you do not believe the parable of Matt. 25:14-30 is part of DOCTRINE.

The doctrine of Matt. 25:14-30 is so very important for everyone of us, that we ought to know. Chrst's purpose for us, He expects us to obey and serve him, also, to please him too.

Obivously, Christ does NOT give talent to a UNbeliever. Christ give talent(duty) to believers only. Because Jesus Christ is our master, and Lord too. He expects us to obey and serve, also to please Him too.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Dr. Bob]

Obviously Christ is not doing ANYTHING. It is a parable. A story. NOT DOCTRINE.

What part of STORY is hard to fathom?

Hello? Lights on, anybody home??!!

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Obviously Christ is not doing ANYTHING. It is a parable. A story. NOT DOCTRINE.

What part of STORY is hard to fathom?

Hello? Lights on, anybody home??!!

Ezekiel 20
48 And all flesh shall see that I the LORD have kindled it: it shall not be quenched.
49 Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Dr. Bob,

I just get home from 3rd shift job this morning. I can see know why, you saying Matt. 25:14-30 is a parable - 'story', not a doctrine. Because I have seen so many baptist pastors avoid preaching or teaching on Matt. 25:14-30, because, verse 30 is very clearly warning about unfaithful servant shall be cast into the outer darkness is not a security salvation doctrine, also, it is not a unconditional salvation.

Strange, few times, I heard some baptist pastors did teaching about the talents apply to us. BUT, nearly all pastors skip verse 30. As, they take it out of the context. I think, that is warning from Revelation 20:19 saying if any person take word out of God's Word, will take person's name out of the book of life. Paul says, 'preach the word' - 2 Tim. 4:2.

If you do not like what Christ saying of Matt. 25:30, then why not you take verse 30 out of the Bible?

Understand, Christ tells the parables, all of these are not literal things, BUT use illustrations to apply our spiritual life, what Christ expects us to obey and serve Him.

Christ expects us to obey and serve Him. Also, Christ expects us to please Him.

In fact, most Christians who received Jesus Christ, did obey and serve the Lord, but for a while, then backslidding, and do nothing for the Lord. I fear that the Lord shall saying to them, 'you are a lazy and wicked servant'. And they will be shocked and cast into the everlasting punishment because of disobedience (2 Thess. 1:8).

Matt. 25:30, and many other verses in the Bible show there are conflict with security salvation or 'perservance of the saints', also unconditional doctrines too.

I used to believe in security salvation for long time. Last year, I left osas camp, because I decided to follow what the Bible saying rather than what men saying (Col.2:8).

You have to accept what Christ saying of Matt. 25:30. Yes, I believe Matt. 25:30 will be a literally occur during judgment day in the future to the people. NOT just a story.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Matthew 25:30 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible)
And throw this good-for-nothing slave
into the outer darkness. In that place there
will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The word in Greek is for slave, not servant.
"Slave" is involuntary, "servant" can
be voluntary. Thus this passags speaks
of human people, not Christian human people.
There is nothing in this
parable that contradicts the Biblical
Principle we entitle "OSAS = Once Saved,
Always Saved". Those in Christ once stay
in Christ. The Born-again are never unborn-again. The sealed to Christ are never
unsealed. Jesus saves to the uttermost.
(i would be remiss to not warn: if you start
acting like an unsaved person, you probably
cannot apply the term "once saved" to yourself.)

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Aren't you the servant of God? Jesus Christ is the servant of God.

Yes, we are slave under Christ, not slave under Satan.

The reason, we are slave under Jesus Christ, because He is our master and Lord. We ought to obey and serve Him, what He commands us to do.

Matt. 25:14-30 obivously apply to us as individual. Christ expects us to obey and serve, to please him. Because we all shall stand before the judgment day, for to judge our works.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[michelle]

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Does Christ give a talent to a UNbeliever?

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Yes. God gives to all, even those who are evil, as the Lord has said this:


Matthew 7

8. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10. Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11. If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?


Luke 12

23. The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.
24. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?
25. And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
26. If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
27. Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
28. If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
29. And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
30. For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
31. But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
32. Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by michelle:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Lacy said:
If chastening in this life is not contrary to grace, (Christ paid it all, so why chasten us for sins already paid for?) why would chastening in the next (If there be such a thing) be contrary to that same grace.

To bring us to repentance of that sin. Jesus is our Priest in Heaven, ever making intercession for the saints. Since we are still in the flesh, we are capable to sin, however, God will bring us to the repentance that Jesus Christ payed the full penalty for, and to which his shed blood atones for.
</font>[/QUOTE]If chastening is only to bring us back in line while we are alive, how did it work when God killed some at Corinth? Their present life was just as over as those at the judgment seat. They had no chance to be brought to repentance after they were chastened.

Also another thought to ponder: If daddy says he's gonna whip us when He comes home if we don't do what He says, then we don't . . . when he comes home it's too late. The (REAL) threat (terror-KJV)of chastening is what brings us back in line. We don't always get chastened in time to correct the behavior. What an impotent father who would threaten judgment, then say, "just kidding".

KJV 2 Corinthians 5:9-11
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.


1 Timothy 5:24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.

If we are not showing forth repentance in our lives, and striving not to sin, this is good indication we are not really saved. . . Willful sin, would indicate we are not truly saved. If the Holy Spirit of God dwells in us, and He owns us, and Has rule over our lives, then we will follow him.

Michelle we are saved by grace through faith alone. Christ's works not ours are the sole basis for our assurance. When you start examining your own works (or lack thereof) to determine if you are saved, where are you putting your faith? We all sin willfully after salvation. The apostles sinned willfully after salvation. We don't automatically obey, nor automatically show forth repentance. If we did, then why spend verse after verse telling saved folks to be good or else be chastened?

If we are chastised, it is to bring us to repentance, and ask the Lord forgiveness in this life. . .

Why do we need chastening at all if we don't sin willfully and/or automatically come to repentance if we are "truly" saved?

Michelle, you are sharp as a tack and I am even a bit intimidated to stand in the (debate) ring with you. But please look again at the verse in I Cor. 5:9-11 above.
When does it take place?
Who is present to be judged?
What are we judged for?
What is the result of the judgnment (good and bad)?
Why is Paul telling us this?

Lacy

 

[michelle]

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If chastening is only to bring us back in line while we are alive, how did it work when God killed some at Corinth? Their present life was just as over as those at the judgment seat. They had no chance to be brought to repentance after they were chastened.
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It is not only for this purpose, as others have explained to you. Just something for you to ponder: Were these truly saved people? If so, how do you know they went to Hell? Why did the Lord take their life at that moment?


I might say they were NOT saved, as they were not being led by the Holy Spirit of God, as they did lie - and this could be a possiblity. If they were saved, God took their life, possibly to make a point, and to keep them from sinning anymore. If they were saved, the sin they committed was already paid for in FULL. Just as Moses also sinned, AFTER his FAITH, he was kept from entering into the literal promised land, but he is NOW in Heaven WITH THE LORD, and will be IN THE MILLENIAL REIGN with Jesus Christ and us. They are no different than Moses or Abraham - yet these patriarchs are in HEAVEN right now, and will also be in the millenial reign. However they will be RESURRECTED and HAVE GLORIFIED BODIES, unlike Israel in the millenial reign, and UNLIKE those jews who made it to the promised land literally.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
Michelle we are saved by grace through faith alone. Christ's works not ours are the sole basis for our assurance. When you start examining your own works (or lack thereof) to determine if you are saved, where are you putting your faith? We all sin willfully after salvation. The apostles sinned willfully after salvation. We don't automatically obey, nor automatically show forth repentance. If we did, then why spend verse after verse telling saved folks to be good or else be chastened?
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I don't do this. The Lord does. The Lord who dwells in me, convicts me of my sin to repentance. If I continue in sin, He will not allow this, and my punishment will most likely be that I am taken away sooner in physical death, than to continue further in sin. Only God knows, and makes this judgement. My spirit however goes to Heaven, NOT HELL. You are sadly believing in false doctrine. If one is in continual sin, without repentance, or change in their life, this is good indication they are not really saved and do not have FAITH because the Holy Spirit leads us to repentance. The way you believe, NOT ONE OF US will be returning with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in our glorified bodies when He returns. This is contrary to scriptural truth.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Sister Michelle -- Preach it!

 

[michelle]

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9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences


How does the Lord accept us?


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When does it take place?
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At the judgement seat of Christ.


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Who is present to be judged?
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All who are SAVED and IN HEAVEN, covered by the Lambs BLOOD.

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What are we judged for?
-------------------------------------------------
-

Sacrifices made unto the Lord, which are our reasonable service - including our temples (earthly bodies), and our works.


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What is the result of the judgnment (good and bad)?
--------------------------------------------------

That we will recieve that which we have done: good or bad in our bodies (glorified BTW) and as the scriptures have said, those of wood, hay and stubble will be burnt up and we are then clothed with white linen fine and clean, which is the righteousness of the saints.


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Why is Paul telling us this?
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To keep us focused upon God's will in our lives, and knowing this, that this persuades us to share the gospel with others, as if even those who are saved and in heaven will also face judgement, the other choice is far worse as their judgement is far worse to which shows us the proper fear of the Lord.


It is as if Paul is reminding them that we will be judged in HEAVEN for our works and what we have done in our own bodies, to which is also a frightful thing, he then turns our attention to men they try to persuade who aren't saved because they will have it much worse.


Now answer me this: Where at the judgement seat of Christ is anyone cast into hell? And if they are in HEAVEN, how can this be, only to be cast into Hell, which is where they would have gone to in the first place? How is it that Abraham, Moses, etc. are in Heaven with the Lord today, but will be in the millenial kingdom also, instead of suffering chastisement and punishment in HELL as christians who are saved?


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

and the most important thing to learn is...

It also shows the great love, mercy, faithfulness, forgiveness and Grace of our Lord God and Jesus Christ our Saviour. He shows us those sins and works to which His shed blood covered, and then gives to us white linen, which is symbolic of HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Amen and praise the Lord!


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by michelle:
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Michelle we are saved by grace through faith alone. Christ's works not ours are the sole basis for our assurance. When you start examining your own works (or lack thereof) to determine if you are saved, where are you putting your faith? We all sin willfully after salvation. The apostles sinned willfully after salvation. We don't automatically obey, nor automatically show forth repentance. If we did, then why spend verse after verse telling saved folks to be good or else be chastened?
--------------------------------------------------


I don't do this. The Lord does. The Lord who dwells in me, convicts me of my sin to repentance. If I continue in sin, He will not allow this, and my punishment will most likely be that I am taken away sooner in physical death, than to continue further in sin. Only God knows, and makes this judgement. My spirit however goes to Heaven, NOT HELL. You are sadly believing in false doctrine. If one is in continual sin, without repentance, or change in their life, this is good indication they are not really saved and do not have FAITH because the Holy Spirit leads us to repentance. The way you believe, NOT ONE OF US will be returning with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in our glorified bodies when He returns. This is contrary to scriptural truth.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Michelle; WE AGREE -- Yeah, yeah, yeah, WUNDERFUL!!!!!!!!!!

Good post, Michelle!

 

[michelle]

Phillip, this false doctrine that christians can go to Hell is very bothersome to me. This is taking away the Power of the Cross of Christ! This will lead many who believe they are saved, who are not, that they will have eternal life! I am in shock!


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by michelle:
Phillip, this false doctrine that christians can go to Hell is very bothersome to me. This is taking away the Power of the Cross of Christ! This will lead many who believe they are saved, who are not, that they will have eternal life! I am in shock!


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

You couldn't have put it any better. If Jesus does not have the capability of holding us in His hands then something is missing.

Sadly, you are absolutely right when discussing people living in habitual sin. Depending on the actual circumstances (and I shouldn't even say that), it points to a soul that is unrepentant and probably never was saved in the first place.

This is a serious issue and many new (usually charismatic) churches are preaching this doctrine today. "Sin enough, you go to hell."

Wouldn't it be sad to have to worry whether or not you are going to heaven when you die?

There is one group of Baptists that do not believe in eternal security (I'm not even sure what they are called) but we will not accept them as members into our church unless they change that belief. This just shows you how important we consider the doctrine.

Eternal life means JUST THAT. A lot of people don't get it, but once saved, you HAVE eternal life. I don't see anywhere it says you "might have eternal life if you follow the ten commandments, etc."

That is what is so wonderful about our salvation. You and I HAVE eternal life. Our physical body will die, but we HAVE eternal life.

Amen! Preach on Sister Michelle!