OK, back to the original question.
No
Regards
Bob
No
Regards
Bob
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Will a Christian ever go to hell?
- Thread starter James_Newman
- Start date
In my Fathers' house are many mansions:if it were not so I woulde have told you.I go to prepare a place for you.And if I go and prepare a place for you,I will come again,and recieve you unto myself;that where I am, there ye may be also.Jn14:2,3
Wherever Jesus is that will be heaven for me.
Wherever Jesus is that will be heaven for me.
For by grace are ye saved through faith;and that not of yourselves,it is the Gift of God not of works ,lest any man should boast. Eph.2:8,9
We don't earn our salvation.We don't keep ourselves saved.It is God and His love.
If I get this right someone is trying to tell us that God will save us after He gets even with us for being sinners.
I thought the Whole purpose of Christ our Lord comming to the cross and paying for our sins was so that He would pay the price that we could not and cannot pay.
We don't earn our salvation.We don't keep ourselves saved.It is God and His love.
If I get this right someone is trying to tell us that God will save us after He gets even with us for being sinners.
I thought the Whole purpose of Christ our Lord comming to the cross and paying for our sins was so that He would pay the price that we could not and cannot pay.
Lacy Evans
New Member
That is not our (Myself, James Newman, AV1611Jim, Bartholomew, Simesan, etc.'s) position. We don't believe that the issue at hand (1000 years in the underworld/Hell) has anything at all to do with salvation at all. In fact we repeatedly have made it clear that the Judgment Seat of Christ onle deals with once-saved-always-saved, eternally secure, blood-bought believers.
What we do believe is that God will and does chasten HIS blood bought children. I have been teaching this doctrine for years and I wish that someone could refute it. Believe me I tried.
No one can show me a single verse that proves that the paternal chastening of believers by their heavenly Father is limited to this life. Quite the opposite is true. Over and over the scripture speaks of a future day(age) when judgment will begin at the house of the Lord and God will judge his people. The Bible teaches us to know the TERROR of the Lord.
Lacy
Lacy Evans
New Member
Re 20:14,15
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Why are these verses worded in such a curious way? The obvious implication (obvious once you get over the initial shock of it) is that there are indeed some who ARE found written in the book of life when hell and death are judged after the millenial Kingdom of Christ.
I would be interested if anyone could find a similar statement where folks would not make such an implication.
(I went to the refrigerator and everything that was not an apple, I threw in the garbage.)
Implication: All that was left in the refrigerator were apples. Who honestly would entertain the idea that after making such a statement, I might have a completely empty refrigerator and didn't have at least a few apples. (Unless it was a riddle or trick)
Otherwise I would have simply said, "I threw out everything in the refrigerator."
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Why are these verses worded in such a curious way? The obvious implication (obvious once you get over the initial shock of it) is that there are indeed some who ARE found written in the book of life when hell and death are judged after the millenial Kingdom of Christ.
I would be interested if anyone could find a similar statement where folks would not make such an implication.
(I went to the refrigerator and everything that was not an apple, I threw in the garbage.)
Implication: All that was left in the refrigerator were apples. Who honestly would entertain the idea that after making such a statement, I might have a completely empty refrigerator and didn't have at least a few apples. (Unless it was a riddle or trick)
Otherwise I would have simply said, "I threw out everything in the refrigerator."
James_Newman
New Member
Bro Bill, I am saying that a saved Christian, born again by believing on the finished work of Jesus Christ, is now commanded to act like the son of God that he has become. If we do not, we will be punished, but we will not be lost in eternity as some on this board would have us believe. Christians in these last days have no fear of God and many will be mighty upset when they get to the judgment seat and find out that the free ride they thought they had was a lie. They will not be eternally lost, but they will suffer loss, just as the Bible says.
Luke 12
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
You do not have to look hard to see that Christians today have lost the fear of God. Here is a statistic from a recent Barna Group poll about divorce:
Although Bible scholars and teachers point out that Jesus taught that divorce was a sin unless adultery was involved, few Americans buy that notion. Only one out of every seven adults (15%) strongly agreed with the statement “when a couple gets divorced without one of them having committed adultery, they are committing a sin.” A similar percentage (16%) moderately agreed with the statement. The vast majority – 66% – disagreed with the statement, most of them strongly dismissing the notion.
Faith perspectives made a difference in people’s views on this matter – but not as much as might have expected. Born again adults were twice as likely as non-born agains (24% vs. 10%) to strongly affirm this statement. However, a majority of the born again group (52%) disagreed that divorce without adultery is sin. Three-quarters of all non-born again adults (74%) disagreed with the statement.
A majority of both Protestants (58%) and Catholics (69%) disagreed that divorce without adultery involved in the commission of sin.
http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdateNarrow&BarnaUpdateID=170
We are all going to stand before the Lord and be judged for our works, and I think we will find that our opinion will not be taken into consideration.
Luke 12
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
You do not have to look hard to see that Christians today have lost the fear of God. Here is a statistic from a recent Barna Group poll about divorce:
Although Bible scholars and teachers point out that Jesus taught that divorce was a sin unless adultery was involved, few Americans buy that notion. Only one out of every seven adults (15%) strongly agreed with the statement “when a couple gets divorced without one of them having committed adultery, they are committing a sin.” A similar percentage (16%) moderately agreed with the statement. The vast majority – 66% – disagreed with the statement, most of them strongly dismissing the notion.
Faith perspectives made a difference in people’s views on this matter – but not as much as might have expected. Born again adults were twice as likely as non-born agains (24% vs. 10%) to strongly affirm this statement. However, a majority of the born again group (52%) disagreed that divorce without adultery is sin. Three-quarters of all non-born again adults (74%) disagreed with the statement.
A majority of both Protestants (58%) and Catholics (69%) disagreed that divorce without adultery involved in the commission of sin.
http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdateNarrow&BarnaUpdateID=170
We are all going to stand before the Lord and be judged for our works, and I think we will find that our opinion will not be taken into consideration.
James I think that has more to do with how poorly christians are discipled and taught in our churches today.
That comes from the uncalled and unsaved pastors in curches preaching nice little feel good sermonettes.
We need to tell people to go to Bible preaching,soul winning,sin hating churches.We need them to go to churches that preach againgst sin and they can't do that unless they identify sin for what it is.We need to send them to churches that preach sound doctrine.
That comes from the uncalled and unsaved pastors in curches preaching nice little feel good sermonettes.
We need to tell people to go to Bible preaching,soul winning,sin hating churches.We need them to go to churches that preach againgst sin and they can't do that unless they identify sin for what it is.We need to send them to churches that preach sound doctrine.
James_Newman
New Member
Whether or not a pastor is saved is beyond me to judge. If they believed in Christ's finished work on the cross as the atonement for their sin, then they are saved as far as I am concerned. I believe the Bible plainly teaches that is what you have to do to be saved. So, salvation issues aside, how do we expect Christ to deal with a saved person, who, nevertheless, does not follow Christ's commandments? As I showed above, if the servant doesn't know his Lord's will, but commits things worthy of stripes, he still gets stripes.
Lacy Evans
New Member
Bro Bill,
I agree with most of what you said here but in the Bible there are two primary motivators for holy living.
1) We live holy to reciprocate Christ's love for us.
2) We live holy because we fear God. and expect to be rewarded. (positive or negative)
Those sermonette pastors tend to leave out holiness all together. But I guarantee you most fundamentally sound preachers leave out the Judgment Seat Of Christ and fatherly reward (as motivation toward holiness) in their preaching.
That is why the prospect of stripes at the JSOC is such a shocking concept for most modern Christians even though it is so plainly taught in scripture.
Lacy
AVL1984
<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
Amen. God doesn't save us to take it back if we sin. God is not the proverbial "indian giver". If we accept the free gift of salvation, we have the adoption of sonship from God. We may do wrong, but God isn't going to disown us. When we receive salvation, we are sealed, and nobody is going to take us out of God's hand, even ourselves, otherwise God is a liar, and we all know that HE isn't.Originally posted by Word Traveler:
Hi Guys, Will a Christian ever go to hell? I believe Scripture teaches eternal security. Christ said, "It is finished." His atoning work was done perfectly and completely! Otherwise, at what point does my sin become more powerful than Jesus Christ's ability to "keep" me? Do you honestly believe that one drop of Christ's precious blood will reside in hell? Hallelujah! I'm covered in it! In Christ, WT
AVL1984
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Revelation 20:15 (KJV1769):
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:27 (KJV1769):
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Only those not written into the book
of life are at the judgement of Revelation 20:15.
Only those in the book of life are
at the heavenly place of Revelation 21:27.
Lacy Evans
New Member
This is obviously correct being a simple restatement of the verse.
However this verse doesn't say what you say. it only says that only those not written into the book of life are cast into the lake of fire.
Again Brother (And I honestly appreciate the verses you have brought to light) why didn't the Spirit lead John to simply say Death and Hell were judged and {all} were cast into the LOF?
If other verses imply that the Christian's danger is the underworld (hell), then we must assume that there are some here in Rev 20. (See James Newman's original post on this thread.)
Lacy
Lacy Evans
New Member
Everyone I know who historically has taught Millennial Exclusion agrees 100% with this statement. The issue has nothing to do with salvation.
I absolutely agree here too.
But what we are proposing and what I believe the Bible plainly teaches is that God can and will chasten his children temporally both before and after death. It is the same (Except of course for the degree) as the Corinthians who were smitten with sickness and (physical)death for taking the Lord's table in an unworthy manner.
Hell is an emotional subject because we have only been taught "Heaven or Hell" so we cannot see Hell (the underworld) as temporal. Yet Rev. 20 is quite clear. Hell is not the eternal resting place of the damned. That would be the Lake of Fire. In ten years of studying and teaching this doctrine, I find that the greatest obstacle to understanding it is a wrong view of what (and where) Hell is. Folks hear "Hell" and automatically assume I am teaching loss of salvation. I absolutely reject the notion of a blood-bought believer EVER for any reason, any sin, or any apostasy, losing his salvation. I am a hard-core right-wing once-saved-always-saved, eternal-security preacher.
The Biblical teaching that a secure believer can be temporally chastened for 1000 years in Hell in no way contradicts the teaching of eternal security. In fact it solidifies and protects the doctrine of Eternal security because it explains all the warnings.
Lacy
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
I have never before seen a more flagrant disrespect for God and His word than these three words in the context of this sentence.
No, but it does very clearly contradict Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, and Jude, and most of all—Jesus. Other than that, it is a fine piece of fiction.
Explaining the weaknesses found in the doctrine of eternal security by teaching false doctrines does not do much for the doctrine of eternal security—in deed, it makes a mockery of it.
Christians go to heaven; sinners, including ALL false prophets, go to hell for eternity.
Hell is not just a lousy vacation that lasts for 1000 years, it is eternal damnation, and anyone who teaches to the contrary teaches a false doctrine.
Smith, Russell, and Faust are three peas in a pod.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
I did read Faust's book about second death. He said, backsliden Christians WILL TASTE the second death, but for a temporary.
I did respond back to Faust by email on second death. I told him, it speaks of eternality punishment - lake of fire very clearly. No way, it can prove it is a temporary.
Faust refuses to debate or discuss with me about second death. So, I better leave him alone.
No excuse, Faust KNOWS better than that, 'second death' speaks of everlasting punishment into lake of fire. He knows. But, he just made of his own guesswork to interpreting them.
'Second death' is NOT a temporary, it is obivously speak of everlasting punishment into the lake of fire! -Rev. 20:14.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
I did respond back to Faust by email on second death. I told him, it speaks of eternality punishment - lake of fire very clearly. No way, it can prove it is a temporary.
Faust refuses to debate or discuss with me about second death. So, I better leave him alone.
No excuse, Faust KNOWS better than that, 'second death' speaks of everlasting punishment into lake of fire. He knows. But, he just made of his own guesswork to interpreting them.
'Second death' is NOT a temporary, it is obivously speak of everlasting punishment into the lake of fire! -Rev. 20:14.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
AVL1984
<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
Everyone I know who historically has taught Millennial Exclusion agrees 100% with this statement. The issue has nothing to do with salvation.
I absolutely agree here too.
But what we are proposing and what I believe the Bible plainly teaches is that God can and will chasten his children temporally both before and after death. It is the same (Except of course for the degree) as the Corinthians who were smitten with sickness and (physical)death for taking the Lord's table in an unworthy manner.
Hell is an emotional subject because we have only been taught "Heaven or Hell" so we cannot see Hell (the underworld) as temporal. Yet Rev. 20 is quite clear. Hell is not the eternal resting place of the damned. That would be the Lake of Fire. In ten years of studying and teaching this doctrine, I find that the greatest obstacle to understanding it is a wrong view of what (and where) Hell is. Folks hear "Hell" and automatically assume I am teaching loss of salvation. I absolutely reject the notion of a blood-bought believer EVER for any reason, any sin, or any apostasy, losing his salvation. I am a hard-core right-wing once-saved-always-saved, eternal-security preacher.
The Biblical teaching that a secure believer can be temporally chastened for 1000 years in Hell in no way contradicts the teaching of eternal security. In fact it solidifies and protects the doctrine of Eternal security because it explains all the warnings.
Lacy </font>[/QUOTE]I reject the Catholic notion of a Christian going to Hell for any portion of time or eternity, just for the fact that Christ took the punishments of separation from God, physical death, and hell in our place. If "it is finished" didn't mean just that, that the possiblity of going to hell wasn't paid, then our faith is vain. I do believe we will suffer some kind of loss for sins committed since saved, but in the form of loss of reward (wood, hay, stubble being burned & gold, silver and precious stones not being burned). To believe in Christians going to hell is a catholic teaching that has no basis in scripture that I can see.
AVL1984
AVL1984
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Amen, Brother DeafPosttrib -- Preach it!
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Amen, Brother AVL1984 -- Preach it!
Lacy Evans
New Member
This is all common teaching but where is the scriptural support? There is always a kind of "separation" associated with chastisement. (I Cor 5:4,5; I Cor 5:13; I Timothy 1:20; 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15; Matthew 5:22; hebrews 12:16,17, etc.) But there is no eternal separation.
There are several things that a Christian can experience that, although unplesant, cannot separate us from God in an ultimate sense. (The Bible uses the term "utterly")
None of these things separate us. But any of them could serve as God's rod in this life. David adds light about the next life.
Even the most severe chastening (For example: 1 Cor 11:30) does not "unsave" us, and does not ultimately separate us.
Why? On what scripture do you base that statement?
Then we aren't really that far apart other than the degree of the "burning".
I've never heard a Catholic teach anything remotely similar to this. The Doctrine of Purgatory has nothing to do with chastisement, reward, or Christ's judgment seat. It has everything to do with redemption by works.
Lacy
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
The only difference between the Roman Catholic teaching of purgatory and Joey Faust's teaching of purgatory is that Joey Faust believes it last for 1000 years no matter what, while Roman Catholics believe you can get indulgences that will lessen your time there.
Perhaps after this false teaching grows into a full-blown non-Christian cult Joey Faust will begin selling indulgences.
Source: Dollen, Rev. Charles J., Dr. James K. McGowan, and Dr. James J. Megivern, editors. The Catholic Tradition: 2000 Years of Great Writings. 14 volumes. Consortium Book, 1979.
Every word of this sentence is entirely false. See the above referenced 14 volume work for a detailed treatment of the subject of purgatory as it has been taught by the Roman Catholic Church during the past 2,000 years.